Compressed powder question

onthejon55 · June 13, 2009, 12:43 PM

Just started working up my first load in .30-06 lastnight and came across a problem. Using IMR 4350 compressed powder I could barely get 53gr in the case before it started overflowing. Mose loading data says the Low/High for my bullet/powder combo is 54gr-58gr! How am i supposed to get that much powder in the case???

sako2 · June 13, 2009, 02:19 PM

what brand case and bullet are you using.

flashhole · June 13, 2009, 06:48 PM

A trick I use to "settle" the powder is to use an electric tooth brush (minus the brush itself) and run the flat portion of the vibrating shaft up and down the case wall. You would be surprised how much the powder can settle.

Sako2 asked the right question, what kind of brass are you using. I resize 30-06 Greek brass (HXP headstamp) into 25-06 cases and it has significantly less powder capacity than any of the commercial brass I use. Not necessarily a bad thing, pressures are about equal and I get good velocity and good accuracy, but you are well advised to start at the bottom of the charge range and work up.

You might also look into using a magnum primer if you are using a compressed load.

longranger · June 13, 2009, 08:04 PM

Use a drop tube settle the powder in the case it will fit. Also Winchester brass has fairly thin walls and is slightly roomier.I would find a different load or powder so would I not have to mess with it.

onthejon55 · June 13, 2009, 08:35 PM

Im using new IMI brass. It makes sense now that military brass is usually thicker and will have less capacity. Im also using 168 gr Hornady BTHPs. I think im just going to find a load that barely fits in all the cases and see how it turns out. Thanks for the help!

SL1 · June 15, 2009, 07:48 PM

Something doesn't seem right about that 53 grain charge overflowing a .30-'06 case. I can get substantially more than that in any .270 Winchester case that I have ever loaded, and still seat the bullet without compressing the powder.

Did you weigh that charge so that you are SURE it is only 53 grains?

SL1

James R. Burke · June 15, 2009, 08:33 PM

I aggree with SL 1. I am using the same powder in a 30-06 with a Lapua case. I believe I am using 56.3 with a Nosler 165 grain partition. It has always been a easy fit. Something just seems wrong. Check everything out again, and of course start at the min with a good manual. Keep it safe!

Red_Eagle · June 15, 2009, 09:12 PM

One other possibility is the way you are chaging the cases. When using the bulkier stick powders (IMR 4350, IMR 4831, AA 3100, etc.) I've found I can avoid this problem by slowly trickling it down the side of the funnel. This gives the powder more time to settle. I also use a funnel with a drop tube for the same reason.

257roberts · June 15, 2009, 10:00 PM

Be sure to check you actual weight on a scale! Are you using a Lee scoop? I don't want to cause an argument, but I don't use or teach people to use them. Most different brands of cases have different powder capacities. This being said I have found Federal to hold the least and R/P and Winchester to hold the most. I have not loaded any '06 in years, but in the 243 the compressed loads actually shoot really good. If you have access to a machine shop or know a machinist have them make you a new longer drop tube and it should solve your problems. I made one three inches long and used a long tapered reamer, now I just settle my compressed 243 loads by tapping with my finger before removing the case mouth from the drop tube.

SL1 · June 15, 2009, 10:35 PM

I don't have time to go physically check it right now, but I think it would take more like SIXTY-3 grains of my IMR-4350 to overflow my .270 case.

I did use QuickLOAD to get some idea of what should fill your case. It says the nominal .30-'06 case holds about 68 grains of water, so, a bulk density of only 0.78 grams/cc would be needed to overflow the case with 53 grains of powder. That doesn't seem right for IMR-4350's density. QuickLOAD gives a bulk density of about 0.88 grams/cc for IMR-4350. At that bulk density, it would take 60.2 grains to completely fill the case.

ARE YOU SURE YOU ARE NOT USING MORE THAN 53 GRAINS?!

If you are really using 63 grains, and could somehow compress it by 14% to get it under your bullet, QuickLOAD gives an estimated pressure of about 80,000 psi ( a 33% overload compared to the SAAMI limit of 60,000 psi)! If you filled the case to the top, and then compressed that 60.2 grains of IMR-4350 by 9% to get it under your bullet, QuickLOAD estimates that would be 68,000 psi (a 13% overload).

Diffrences between your gun and the "nominal" values in QuickLOAD make these estimates somewhat inaccurate, but those pressures are high enough that you should check your charge weights carefully before you try to load any cartridges. It really seems like you must be doing something wrong. I have never used a drop tube to get even 57 grains of IMR-4350 into my .270 cases.

If your powder measurement does check out, then I suggest that you measure the water capacity of your IMI cases and reduce your loads according to what you find, because heavily compressing IMR-4350 under a 168 grain bullet would give excessive pressure no matter whether it was due to to much powder or too little case volume, compared to the loading datat that you are using. We can help you figure out what the load reduction should be, but we would need some additional info from you (besides the water capacity of the cases).

SL1

flashhole · June 16, 2009, 06:43 AM

257 Roberts - I'm not making the connection between your comment about Lee scoops and case capacity.

I use the Lee Dipper Cups a lot and proved to myself numerous times they are quite repeatable if you pay attention to your technique. I scoop to overfull, tap it on the rim of the container to settle the powder, then rake the top off with a toothpick. I end up with a level scoop. You can't take at face value what the grain measurement will be according to the chart that comes with the dipper cups. You have to measure the dipper scoop loads to know for sure what your specific powder density is providing in terms of charge weight but they are quite repeatable.

You don't have the ability to fine tune the charge weight using the dipper cups, it is what it is, but if your dipper cup load falls within the charge range that provides good accuracy it is a fool proof method of getting a consistent powder charge.

steve4102 · June 16, 2009, 08:23 AM

Yup, something ain't right. As stated above, check and double check your powder charge. Check and double check your scale for accuracy.
Did you tumble this brass with walnut or corncob media? Check to make sure you don't have and unwanted media left in the case.

James R. Burke · June 16, 2009, 06:38 PM

Like I said prior something just is not right. I use the same powder in my 06 with 56.3 grains no drop tube, and it is a very easy fit very easy. I am sure you are trying very hard to get it all correct but I would be rechecking the scale etc. Sounds like you have a good manual, and start at the min. Good luck. If it does not seem correct it probably is not. Keep it safe!

saands · June 16, 2009, 07:23 PM

I agree that something isn't quite right ... it occurred to me that there are two 4350 powders ... IMR and Hodgdon ... the Hodgdon is less dense, but it doesn't look like the difference should account for THIS discrepancy. The smart advice here is to "stand fast" while and until you figure out what is really wrong.

Saands

elkman06 · June 17, 2009, 08:30 PM

59grs is at the bottom of the neck on a full length resized shell for me.
Might want to verify your scale. or if you are attempting to throw your loads, I have found that a powder throw can vary several grains. I weight all of my rifle loads.
elkman06

Slamfire · June 18, 2009, 10:04 AM

Quote:

ARE YOU SURE YOU ARE NOT USING MORE THAN 53 GRAINS?!

Can't be repeated enough times. Something is wrong.

I have loaded thousands of cases with 55.0 grains of IMR/H/AA4350. Never filled the cases.

James R. Burke · June 18, 2009, 04:34 PM

Onthejon 55 just wondering if you have it worked out. Please let us know. Thanks Jim.

June 13, 2009, 12:43 PM	#1
onthejon55 Junior member Join Date: October 23, 2008 Location: Evansville, IN Posts: 411	Compressed powder question Just started working up my first load in .30-06 lastnight and came across a problem. Using IMR 4350 compressed powder I could barely get 53gr in the case before it started overflowing. Mose loading data says the Low/High for my bullet/powder combo is 54gr-58gr! How am i supposed to get that much powder in the case???

June 13, 2009, 06:48 PM	#3
flashhole Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2005 Location: Owego, NY Posts: 2,000	A trick I use to "settle" the powder is to use an electric tooth brush (minus the brush itself) and run the flat portion of the vibrating shaft up and down the case wall. You would be surprised how much the powder can settle. Sako2 asked the right question, what kind of brass are you using. I resize 30-06 Greek brass (HXP headstamp) into 25-06 cases and it has significantly less powder capacity than any of the commercial brass I use. Not necessarily a bad thing, pressures are about equal and I get good velocity and good accuracy, but you are well advised to start at the bottom of the charge range and work up. You might also look into using a magnum primer if you are using a compressed load. __________________ ,,, stupidity comes to some people very easily. 8/22/2017 my wife in a discussion about Liberals. Are you ready for civil war?

June 15, 2009, 10:00 PM	#9
257roberts Member Join Date: December 27, 2006 Posts: 41	compressed loads Be sure to check you actual weight on a scale! Are you using a Lee scoop? I don't want to cause an argument, but I don't use or teach people to use them. Most different brands of cases have different powder capacities. This being said I have found Federal to hold the least and R/P and Winchester to hold the most. I have not loaded any '06 in years, but in the 243 the compressed loads actually shoot really good. If you have access to a machine shop or know a machinist have them make you a new longer drop tube and it should solve your problems. I made one three inches long and used a long tapered reamer, now I just settle my compressed 243 loads by tapping with my finger before removing the case mouth from the drop tube.

June 15, 2009, 10:35 PM	#10
SL1 Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2007 Posts: 2,001	I don't have time to go physically check it right now, but I think it would take more like SIXTY-3 grains of my IMR-4350 to overflow my .270 case. I did use QuickLOAD to get some idea of what should fill your case. It says the nominal .30-'06 case holds about 68 grains of water, so, a bulk density of only 0.78 grams/cc would be needed to overflow the case with 53 grains of powder. That doesn't seem right for IMR-4350's density. QuickLOAD gives a bulk density of about 0.88 grams/cc for IMR-4350. At that bulk density, it would take 60.2 grains to completely fill the case. ARE YOU SURE YOU ARE NOT USING MORE THAN 53 GRAINS?! If you are really using 63 grains, and could somehow compress it by 14% to get it under your bullet, QuickLOAD gives an estimated pressure of about 80,000 psi ( a 33% overload compared to the SAAMI limit of 60,000 psi)! If you filled the case to the top, and then compressed that 60.2 grains of IMR-4350 by 9% to get it under your bullet, QuickLOAD estimates that would be 68,000 psi (a 13% overload). Diffrences between your gun and the "nominal" values in QuickLOAD make these estimates somewhat inaccurate, but those pressures are high enough that you should check your charge weights carefully before you try to load any cartridges. It really seems like you must be doing something wrong. I have never used a drop tube to get even 57 grains of IMR-4350 into my .270 cases. If your powder measurement does check out, then I suggest that you measure the water capacity of your IMI cases and reduce your loads according to what you find, because heavily compressing IMR-4350 under a 168 grain bullet would give excessive pressure no matter whether it was due to to much powder or too little case volume, compared to the loading datat that you are using. We can help you figure out what the load reduction should be, but we would need some additional info from you (besides the water capacity of the cases). SL1 Last edited by SL1; June 15, 2009 at 10:45 PM.

June 16, 2009, 06:43 AM	#11
flashhole Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2005 Location: Owego, NY Posts: 2,000	257 Roberts - I'm not making the connection between your comment about Lee scoops and case capacity. I use the Lee Dipper Cups a lot and proved to myself numerous times they are quite repeatable if you pay attention to your technique. I scoop to overfull, tap it on the rim of the container to settle the powder, then rake the top off with a toothpick. I end up with a level scoop. You can't take at face value what the grain measurement will be according to the chart that comes with the dipper cups. You have to measure the dipper scoop loads to know for sure what your specific powder density is providing in terms of charge weight but they are quite repeatable. You don't have the ability to fine tune the charge weight using the dipper cups, it is what it is, but if your dipper cup load falls within the charge range that provides good accuracy it is a fool proof method of getting a consistent powder charge. __________________ ,,, stupidity comes to some people very easily. 8/22/2017 my wife in a discussion about Liberals. Are you ready for civil war?

June 13, 2009, 02:19 PM	#2
sako2 Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2009 Posts: 766	what brand case and bullet are you using.

June 13, 2009, 08:04 PM	#4
longranger Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2008 Location: Buffalo WY Posts: 1,056	Use a drop tube settle the powder in the case it will fit. Also Winchester brass has fairly thin walls and is slightly roomier.I would find a different load or powder so would I not have to mess with it.

June 13, 2009, 08:35 PM	#5
onthejon55 Junior member Join Date: October 23, 2008 Location: Evansville, IN Posts: 411	Im using new IMI brass. It makes sense now that military brass is usually thicker and will have less capacity. Im also using 168 gr Hornady BTHPs. I think im just going to find a load that barely fits in all the cases and see how it turns out. Thanks for the help!

June 15, 2009, 07:48 PM	#6
SL1 Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2007 Posts: 2,001	Something doesn't seem right about that 53 grain charge overflowing a .30-'06 case. I can get substantially more than that in any .270 Winchester case that I have ever loaded, and still seat the bullet without compressing the powder. Did you weigh that charge so that you are SURE it is only 53 grains? SL1

June 15, 2009, 08:33 PM	#7
James R. Burke Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2009 Location: U.P. of Mich/Quinnesec Posts: 1,897	I aggree with SL 1. I am using the same powder in a 30-06 with a Lapua case. I believe I am using 56.3 with a Nosler 165 grain partition. It has always been a easy fit. Something just seems wrong. Check everything out again, and of course start at the min with a good manual. Keep it safe!

June 15, 2009, 09:12 PM	#8
Red_Eagle Senior Member Join Date: February 3, 2007 Location: Western NY Posts: 598	One other possibility is the way you are chaging the cases. When using the bulkier stick powders (IMR 4350, IMR 4831, AA 3100, etc.) I've found I can avoid this problem by slowly trickling it down the side of the funnel. This gives the powder more time to settle. I also use a funnel with a drop tube for the same reason.

June 16, 2009, 08:23 AM	#12
steve4102 Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,968	Yup, something ain't right. As stated above, check and double check your powder charge. Check and double check your scale for accuracy. Did you tumble this brass with walnut or corncob media? Check to make sure you don't have and unwanted media left in the case.

June 16, 2009, 06:38 PM	#13
James R. Burke Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2009 Location: U.P. of Mich/Quinnesec Posts: 1,897	Like I said prior something just is not right. I use the same powder in my 06 with 56.3 grains no drop tube, and it is a very easy fit very easy. I am sure you are trying very hard to get it all correct but I would be rechecking the scale etc. Sounds like you have a good manual, and start at the min. Good luck. If it does not seem correct it probably is not. Keep it safe!

June 16, 2009, 07:23 PM	#14
saands Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 1999 Posts: 1,573	I agree that something isn't quite right ... it occurred to me that there are two 4350 powders ... IMR and Hodgdon ... the Hodgdon is less dense, but it doesn't look like the difference should account for THIS discrepancy. The smart advice here is to "stand fast" while and until you figure out what is really wrong. Saands

June 17, 2009, 08:30 PM	#15
elkman06 Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2006 Location: Wyoming Posts: 885	59grs is at the bottom of the neck on a full length resized shell for me. Might want to verify your scale. or if you are attempting to throw your loads, I have found that a powder throw can vary several grains. I weight all of my rifle loads. elkman06

June 18, 2009, 04:34 PM	#17
James R. Burke Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2009 Location: U.P. of Mich/Quinnesec Posts: 1,897	Onthejon 55 just wondering if you have it worked out. Please let us know. Thanks Jim.