Poor mans 1000 yard gun / cartridge...

[Magnum Wheel Man]

been thinking of trying to shoot out to 1000 yards...

I'd like to use a new BRNO rifle in 30-06 that I already own...

I'd like to try a few "factory match" ammos this fall, then rebarrel / rechamber over the winter... ( as needed )

I was thinking of trying on of these options ( but am open for suggestions )

30-06 getting a barrel that will stabilize a bullet like the Sierra 240 grain HPBT MK ( BC of .711 )... looking for anyone thats loaded '06 with that bullet ( is it even possible ??? )

switching the barrel & chamber to 338-06... with a twist rate that would stabilize a Sierra 300 grain HPBT MK ( BC of .768 ) looking for any suggestions for loading 338-06 & or anyone thats loaded the 300 grain bullet

also thinking about 6.5 X 55, but have not studied the feasability of doing it in a rifle orginally chambered for '06

any other suggestions for chamberings for a rifle originally chambered for '06...( a little different is a plus... but I don't want to be beating my head against the wall looking for components etc. )

[Jim Watson]

Most of the people I know with experience shooting .30-06 at Long Range settled on 190 - 210 grain bullets. The heavier bullets are best shot in magnums. I don't even want to think about a 300 gr .338-06. Load data I have tops out at about 2400 fps for a 250, no 300 shown.

My main advice is to have fun and learn the ropes with your .30-06 and not get hypnotized by catalog B.C. numbers.
When you get ready to PAY for something specialized I recommend you not mung up your Brno. It is not much used by target shooters and the extra work required to turn it into a target rifle would probably buy you a Remington action to work from

[Magnum Wheel Man]

Thanks JIM...

I guess even though thats not what I wanted to hear... it's likely the reply I should be hearing...

It's been a while since I've reloaded ( remodeling in that area of the house, so the loading bench has been "down" for several years )... but I remember trying to pick loads from the catalog with poor results...

I also understand that there will only be so much velocity available in a cartridge, & those heavy ( better BC bullets ), will be lower on the velocity charts, while I need to reach & maintain velocities through the full 1000 yards... I have loaded '06 before ( mostly 160 & 180 grain bullets ), but have never loaded for the 338-06, so I'm pretty clueless what kind of velocities are attainable ???

part of that is why I'm interested in the 6.5 X 55... figuring in a modern gun, that it could hold some more potential than it could achive in the old war horse

not to switch gears totally, but wondering if anyone has played with subsonic loadings at that kind of distance... I've always been interested in the 300 Whisper, & since transfering from supersonic to subsonic is not recommended in distance shooting, I've been wondering if one of these hyper spinning heavy weights could be successfully grouped at that distance ??? anone with loading expirience with one of the Whispers ???

[Smokey Joe]

Magnum Wheel Man--Jim Watson about nailed it. I have one thing to add:

also thinking about 6.5 X 55, but have not studied the feasability of doing it in a rifle orginally chambered for '06

The base of the 6.5x55 case is 0.007" larger in diameter than that of the '06 and all of its derivatives. Therefore, a switch from an '06 chamber to a 6.5x55 chamber would also involve opening up the bolt face by that much. i.e. you're getting into more gunsmith work. For the same reason, it's not advisable to "resize" '06 cases to 6.5x55--the base of the case doesn't expand to fill up that extra.

If you want to consider the 6.5mm diameter (an inherently good idea, IMHO) consider the 6.5 Creedmoor that Hornady has recently introduced. Since it's a new cartridge there aren't any antique guns for it lying around, so it can be (and is) SAAMI spec'ed and loaded to modern pressures. The case is derived from the .308 Win case (part of the '06 family! ), so the base on the Creedmoor case is of course the same size as any of the other '06 derivatives.

[hodaka]

For about $400 you could rebarrel to a 6.5-06. Lots of bullets to choose from, lots of brass, no other modifications. Much less recoil than those 200 gr. 30 cal's.

[Jim Watson]

All the way to 1000 yards subsonic?

If you just must, Sierra Infinity says a 240 BTHP fired at 1050 fps would arrive at 1000 yards at 831 fps after a mid-range trajectory height of 43 feet. Wind deflection would be only 36" in a 5 mph crosswind. The only question is whether it would still be stable at that velocity.

I doubt it would work well in practice. The BPCR shooters went through a spell of that a while back. A 1250 fps .45-70 is bound to drop subsonic over any usual match distance. So they tried loading them at 1050 fps to avoid the transition. Most are back at 1250 or faster if they can.

A 220 gr FMJBT .30 at 2500 fps from an '06 would be going 1371 fps with a mid range trajectory height of 10.5 feet. It would be moved 38" in a 5mph crosswind, so the Whisper doesn't look bad there.

A 300 gr FMJBT .338 at 2200 fps, if you could get that from a .338-06, would arrive at 1328 fps, midrange 12.5 ft, wind 35.5". Which is comparable to the 220 gr .30 but will kick 20% harder.

[Scorch]

Well, a quick check shows that a 175 gr 7mm BTSP or BTHP launched at 2,600 fps will arrive at 1,000 yds going 1,331 fps, so you could rebarrel your 30-06 to 7X57mm, 284 Win, or 280 Rem. If you rework the bolt face you could opt for 7mm RemMag/7mm WSM, etc, etc.

[RidgwayCO]

Using QuickLOAD and QuickTARGET, a Hornady 208gr A-Max started at 2500 fps will arrive at 1000 yds with 1377 fps and 876 ft-lbs of energy (better numbers than I would have suspected).

Additional information: zeroing at 1000 yds also gives a 500 yd height of 127 inches above line-of-sight, and a 10 mph crosswind gives over 75 inches of deflection at 1000 yds. Shooting with a 100 yd zero results in the bullet dropping over 31 ft below line-of-sight at 1000 yds.

I guess nobody said shooting a 30-06 at 1000 yards would be easy...

[Zak Smith]

If you're going to rebarrel, there are a lot better cartridges to use than .30-06 (suggest 280Rem, 6.5-06 in the same parent case). However, like others have said, the 190's and 210's will work pretty well for long-range work in the .30-06.

-z

[Magnum Wheel Man]

Thanks for all the help guys... I think I'll give the '06 a try this fall, & see how it does, then decide what I want to do to improve or replace it...

... so if I can get it to shoot good with 180 - 200 grain bullets, & can get a 20 MOA base...

next big question, is scope... & magnification...

[Zak Smith]

article | Practical Long-Range Rifle Shooting, Part I - Rifle & Equipment


article | Practical Long-Range Rifle Shooting, Part II - Optics

[Magnum Wheel Man]

Thanks ZAK... I've found reading those articals helpfull...

in keeping with the "poor mans" part of this forum, I guess I can't afford the recommended glass, but since ( at least at this stage ), it'll be a dedicated 1000 yard gun, I won't need to worry about ranging, I'll be ale to shoot in my own conditions, so some of the things critical to a scope listed in the artical could be pushed of to the side, in favor of a cheaper piece of glass ???

... some of the recommendations so far have been Mueller & Supersniper brands...

the SS's are all straight power, like either 16X or 20X, & large amounts of adjustability

the Muellers offer a few multi power & a few straight power, & though they are only 1" tubes, some offer almost as much adjustability... with the 20 MOA base, I think I'll need a good amount of adjustment, but nothing huge... one thing I gleened from Burris's websight, is that brightness & clairity are at thier best, when the scope is closest to center of adjustment...

these are some of what I'm looking at...

http://www.swfa.com/c-1506-mueller-t...flescopes.aspx

http://www.swfa.com/pc-4307-231-supe...fle-scope.aspx

any other < $400.00 suggestions ???

[Threefeathers]

I'm glad I found this thread.
I have several 1K rifles so I want to tell you what I think.
1. I have a Tactical Savage with McMillian bedded stock in .308. It has the Savage heavy barrel and I put a modestly priced but extremly well built Sightron tactical scope on it. This rifle will shoot every round into the X ring on a Type B target at 1K if I do my job. Cost for everything is going to be 1500 including the Sightron.

2. I have an 03 Springfield that will nail the same targets in 30 Cal. 30:06. I don't want to scope this rifle but may get another and and set it up in the above configuration just for s**** and Giggles.

3. I have 3 Swedish Mausers in 6.5X55. They are the big surprise. First the Mauser action is one of the strongest there is. You will find folks who say to dawn load the the cartridge because of age. That is urban rumor, the reason Norma began to download the cartridge was because so many Norwegian Krag rifles were made in this caliber, the Krag action is not nearly as capable of taking high pressure cartridges as the Mauser. (The Springfield ia a Mauser)
One of my Swedish Mausers was rebuilt by Morrison Precision with the Midway kit, (barrel, Fajen stock that was bedded) I put a Burris Fullfield 3-9 on it and this rifle will blow the center out of anything with 1K. The first day we took it out I fired 5 rounds at 100 meters and all 5 rounds were touching.
Then we took the Swedish rifle that is all matching numbers and fired it from a bench at 1K. (Threepoints in Tucson) By having it in a rest we took the human factor out of it. It blew the center out of the X ring at 1K using my carefully made handloads.

My next Tactical rifle will be in 6.5X55.

[Magnum Wheel Man]

so you guys have me pretty much planning on the '06 for a few 100 rounds this fall, just to feel it out...

is there any merit to shooting 300 yards with several different loads, trying to see which bullet the rifle likes, or am I just wasting money, & would be better off going the full distance to test group sizes...

( FYI... my loading bench is still down... till winter, so I was going to try a few factory loads for this fall... )

is there much noticable difference balistically, ( aside from likes & dislikes of each rifle ) between these bullets... all in .308

Barnes 180 TS = .552 BC
Nosler 180 AB = .507 BC
Hornady 168 M BTHP = .450 BC
Hornady 180 BT SP = .425 BC
Hornady 168 A-Max = .475 BC
Sierra 168 MK HPBT = .462 BC
Sierra 180 MK HPBT = .475 BC

also anyone know what bullets Federal is using in thier "Fussion" line of ammo...

[Zak Smith]

I pick a couple bullets with high BC values, shoot them for groups at 100 yards, and take the best candidate (based on actual velocity and projected wind/drop values at long range) , shoot it at long range and confirm it will perform. I've only had 1 load that shot OK at 100 but fell apart at 1000. This saves a lot of time.

In .30-06, I'd look at the 190gr and 210gr Berger VLDs for long-range performance.

[The Lovemaster]

I'm a big fan of Sierra bullets for the accuracy.

[Magnum Wheel Man]

I probably have some Sierra bullets hand loaded... but they'd be deer hunting ammo, not paper punchers..

[exercion]

As one who took a Rem 700 action and had it barreled to 6.5x55 for long range I can highly recommend the conversion. Your boltface *MAY* need opened for good 6.5 brass (translation: Lapua) but then it may not. Mine didn't. The old round really shines in a modern action with good brass.


Eric

[Shoney]

Current 1000 yard records are being set with 6mmRemBR. It has the same case head size as the 30-06. With your current rifle, you would only have to rebarrel. The bolt will work perfectly, but will only be a longer throw than needed.

[R.Childs]

A lot of people are using 6-284's and 6.5-284's. Both of these calibers are doing extremely well at 1k.

[ForneyRider]

Isn't 6.5-.284 a 30.06-based cartridge? Factory brass can be had.

A fellow gun range regular runs this with 140gr A-max and IMR-4350. I think he was experimenting with 4831 and H1000 as well. His reloads were picture perfect.

[Zak Smith]

Isn't 6.5-.284 a 30.06-based cartridge?

6.5-284 is based on the -- wait for it -- 284 Winchester.

-z

[ForneyRider]

.284 Win (with blown out base) based on 308 Win based on 30-06.

[Zak Smith]

.284 Win based on 308 Win based on 30-06.

No, it's not.

The .284 Winchester has a larger body diameter than .308, but a rebated rim providing the same case head diameter as .308.

The .284 Win's shoulder has a larger diameter than the .308 does where its body starts just above the extraction groove.

Try again.

[ForneyRider]

How about 6.5-06?

I came across this cartridge when I was reading my Nosler book.

http://www.nosler.com/index.php?p=15&b=6.5mm&s=217

6.5mm and 30cal have much more selection for bullets than a .270 Winchester.