22 Niedner

See The Elephant · December 30, 2007, 12:48 PM

Reloading information is scarce-to-non-existant for the 22 Niedner cartridge. I have a vintage Sharps Borchardt which was built by A.O. Niedber in the 20's or 30's and would like to bring this old gal back to life. It came with a set of dies, and I know that cartridge cases can be formed from 30/30 brass. I also know that the so-called 22/30-30 Improved is reloaded using a 45-to-50 gr bullet and 36grs IMR 4064 w/ mv 3925fps. Any thoughts, suggestions, or advice?
T.I.A.

Scorch · December 30, 2007, 05:01 PM

Interesting. Sounds like a 219 Zipper or similar catridge. There were boatloads of cartridges based on the 30-30 case: 219 Zipper, 219 Donaldson Wasp being the most popular. A guy just last week was telling me about another I had never heard of but I can't remember the name. Winchester even came out with the 225 Winchester, which is similar to a semi-rimmed version of the 219 Zipper Improved.

The 22 Savage High Power was a commercialized version of a similar round, but it used a .228" bullet. Might be a good idea to slug your bore to be sure of bore diameter.

Get a copy of Cartridges of the World and compare case dimensions of the case to see if you can use 225 Winchester or 219 Donaldson Wasp loading data. Hornady has data for both in their loading manual, as does Sierra.
Since you have dies and some load information, try forming some cases and loading up ammo to see how it performs. Sharps Borchardt rifles were famous for their accuracy.

See The Elephant · December 30, 2007, 10:12 PM

Scorch,

Thanks for your reply and for adding your perspective. The .219 Zipper is dimensionally very similar to the .22 Niedner, with the Zipper having a 12 degree shoulder, and the Niedner having a 17 degree shoulder. Oddly, A.O. Niedner used a Springfield M1922 M2 22 caliber barrel in building this rifle. And, while I expect the groove-to-groove diameter to be 0.224", I will take your suggestion and slug the bore.

There are always better cartridges out there, but I think that it's great fun to get an "odd duck" to perform at its best.

See The Elephant · December 30, 2007, 10:42 PM

FYI - Groove-to-groove diameter is 0.222"

joneb · December 30, 2007, 10:58 PM

I thought the 219 Zipper was a necked down 25-20

See The Elephant · December 31, 2007, 12:28 AM

jibjab,

2R Lovell is made by necking-down a 25/20 single shot cartridge case. A 219 Zipper came to life originally by necking-down a 25-35 WCF cartridge case.

joneb · January 1, 2008, 11:17 PM

Thanks for clarification, it's been awhile

See The Elephant · January 2, 2008, 09:41 AM

Dave at CH4D wrote me saying:

"I have been told the Niedner was the "pattern" for the 219 zipper & they are virtually identical except for the shoulder & loading data would be virtually identical also."

Scorch · January 2, 2008, 04:08 PM

Well, load it up and let's see a range report.

Looks like you will be using .223" 22 Hornet bullets.

I love old guns!

ten-mile · January 3, 2008, 10:05 PM

I have a 22 Niedner Magnum and used to shoot it a lot. I can form some cases for you if you need some. Many of the barrels are 0.223 with 16" twist and will shoot 50 grain bullets just fine, although 223 diameter was sligtly more accurate than 224.
I have quite a lot of information on this caliber.
I am especially interested in your barrel markings and would like to see an image of the numbers that are underneath the fore end.

See The Elephant · January 4, 2008, 12:39 AM

ten-mile,

Thanks for your kind offer !!

Please check your email.

Martyn4802 · January 5, 2008, 08:16 AM

Great thread!!
I'm from the era of those fine old cartridges, the R-2 Lovell, The Niedner, the Hornet, and the Varminter (22-250). I'm having a serious case of nostalgia NOW!!!

Since the case volume of the 22 Neidner and the 219 Zipper are identical at 50 gr of water, I would use Zipper loads with no hesitation.

Martyn

See The Elephant · January 5, 2008, 09:26 AM

Martyn4802,

Being an Army Man, you know the meaning of "Be the best you can be." In that regard, my goal in the shooting sports is with getting the best possible accuracy I can from "obsolete" black powder cartridges such as 44/77BN, 40/85 Ballard, 50/70 Gov't, etc. .... making them the best they can be, rather than BETTER than anything else ... since there's always going to be something better. I feel the same way about the vintage wildcat cartridges out of the 1920's thru the 1950's that you mentioned. It gives me an extra special thrill to make one of these old gals shine, especially in a fine old rifle, like a Borchardt or a Stevens 44~1/2 or a HiWall. Shooting and reloading for a 6mm out of a Rem Model 700 or a 40X is grand, but going back in time (in my mind) and re-living a preserved moment from the early days of target or varmint shooting using the old stuff seems even grander to me.

Martyn4802 · January 5, 2008, 09:37 AM

Exactly!
Perfectly said too.
I LOVE those older rounds.
And, you mention the Stevens 44 1/2, just thinking about that rifle makes me smile. A friend up here who is a full time gunsmith restored one of them for his personal use. Needless to say, it is a magnificent specimen.
I have a couple of old Martini's that I shoot, and love. The workmanship in those fine old rifles is so superior to factory rifles of today.
I grew up during the Tom Shelhammer, Griffen and Howe, and RG Owen era, loving great workmanship, beautiful lines, and excellent Walnut stocks. I just can't get used to synthetic stocks of today, although I do have several target rifles with those stocks on them. But, for sporting rifles, no thank you to synthetic anything on a rifle.

Good luck with your Niedner.

Martyn

December 30, 2007, 12:48 PM	#1
See The Elephant Junior Member Join Date: December 30, 2007 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 7	22 Niedner Reloading information is scarce-to-non-existant for the 22 Niedner cartridge. I have a vintage Sharps Borchardt which was built by A.O. Niedber in the 20's or 30's and would like to bring this old gal back to life. It came with a set of dies, and I know that cartridge cases can be formed from 30/30 brass. I also know that the so-called 22/30-30 Improved is reloaded using a 45-to-50 gr bullet and 36grs IMR 4064 w/ mv 3925fps. Any thoughts, suggestions, or advice? T.I.A.

December 30, 2007, 05:01 PM	#2
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,249	Interesting. Sounds like a 219 Zipper or similar catridge. There were boatloads of cartridges based on the 30-30 case: 219 Zipper, 219 Donaldson Wasp being the most popular. A guy just last week was telling me about another I had never heard of but I can't remember the name. Winchester even came out with the 225 Winchester, which is similar to a semi-rimmed version of the 219 Zipper Improved. The 22 Savage High Power was a commercialized version of a similar round, but it used a .228" bullet. Might be a good idea to slug your bore to be sure of bore diameter. Get a copy of Cartridges of the World and compare case dimensions of the case to see if you can use 225 Winchester or 219 Donaldson Wasp loading data. Hornady has data for both in their loading manual, as does Sierra. Since you have dies and some load information, try forming some cases and loading up ammo to see how it performs. Sharps Borchardt rifles were famous for their accuracy. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

January 2, 2008, 04:08 PM	#9
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,249	Well, load it up and let's see a range report. Looks like you will be using .223" 22 Hornet bullets. I love old guns! __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

January 3, 2008, 10:05 PM	#10
ten-mile Junior Member Join Date: January 3, 2008 Posts: 1	22 Niedner Magnum I have a 22 Niedner Magnum and used to shoot it a lot. I can form some cases for you if you need some. Many of the barrels are 0.223 with 16" twist and will shoot 50 grain bullets just fine, although 223 diameter was sligtly more accurate than 224. I have quite a lot of information on this caliber. I am especially interested in your barrel markings and would like to see an image of the numbers that are underneath the fore end.

December 30, 2007, 10:12 PM	#3
See The Elephant Junior Member Join Date: December 30, 2007 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 7	Scorch, Thanks for your reply and for adding your perspective. The .219 Zipper is dimensionally very similar to the .22 Niedner, with the Zipper having a 12 degree shoulder, and the Niedner having a 17 degree shoulder. Oddly, A.O. Niedner used a Springfield M1922 M2 22 caliber barrel in building this rifle. And, while I expect the groove-to-groove diameter to be 0.224", I will take your suggestion and slug the bore. There are always better cartridges out there, but I think that it's great fun to get an "odd duck" to perform at its best.

December 30, 2007, 10:42 PM	#4
See The Elephant Junior Member Join Date: December 30, 2007 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 7	FYI - Groove-to-groove diameter is 0.222"

December 30, 2007, 10:58 PM	#5
joneb Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2005 Location: Central , OR Posts: 1,888	I thought the 219 Zipper was a necked down 25-20

December 31, 2007, 12:28 AM	#6
See The Elephant Junior Member Join Date: December 30, 2007 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 7	jibjab, 2R Lovell is made by necking-down a 25/20 single shot cartridge case. A 219 Zipper came to life originally by necking-down a 25-35 WCF cartridge case.

January 1, 2008, 11:17 PM	#7
joneb Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2005 Location: Central , OR Posts: 1,888	Thanks for clarification, it's been awhile

January 2, 2008, 09:41 AM	#8
See The Elephant Junior Member Join Date: December 30, 2007 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 7	Dave at CH4D wrote me saying: "I have been told the Niedner was the "pattern" for the 219 zipper & they are virtually identical except for the shoulder & loading data would be virtually identical also."

January 4, 2008, 12:39 AM	#11
See The Elephant Junior Member Join Date: December 30, 2007 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 7	ten-mile, Thanks for your kind offer !! Please check your email.

January 5, 2008, 08:16 AM	#12
Martyn4802 Senior Member Join Date: June 12, 2007 Location: Grayling, Michigan Posts: 737	Great thread!! I'm from the era of those fine old cartridges, the R-2 Lovell, The Niedner, the Hornet, and the Varminter (22-250). I'm having a serious case of nostalgia NOW!!! Since the case volume of the 22 Neidner and the 219 Zipper are identical at 50 gr of water, I would use Zipper loads with no hesitation. Martyn

January 5, 2008, 09:26 AM	#13
See The Elephant Junior Member Join Date: December 30, 2007 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 7	Martyn4802, Being an Army Man, you know the meaning of "Be the best you can be." In that regard, my goal in the shooting sports is with getting the best possible accuracy I can from "obsolete" black powder cartridges such as 44/77BN, 40/85 Ballard, 50/70 Gov't, etc. .... making them the best they can be, rather than BETTER than anything else ... since there's always going to be something better. I feel the same way about the vintage wildcat cartridges out of the 1920's thru the 1950's that you mentioned. It gives me an extra special thrill to make one of these old gals shine, especially in a fine old rifle, like a Borchardt or a Stevens 44~1/2 or a HiWall. Shooting and reloading for a 6mm out of a Rem Model 700 or a 40X is grand, but going back in time (in my mind) and re-living a preserved moment from the early days of target or varmint shooting using the old stuff seems even grander to me.

January 5, 2008, 09:37 AM	#14
Martyn4802 Senior Member Join Date: June 12, 2007 Location: Grayling, Michigan Posts: 737	Exactly! Perfectly said too. I LOVE those older rounds. And, you mention the Stevens 44 1/2, just thinking about that rifle makes me smile. A friend up here who is a full time gunsmith restored one of them for his personal use. Needless to say, it is a magnificent specimen. I have a couple of old Martini's that I shoot, and love. The workmanship in those fine old rifles is so superior to factory rifles of today. I grew up during the Tom Shelhammer, Griffen and Howe, and RG Owen era, loving great workmanship, beautiful lines, and excellent Walnut stocks. I just can't get used to synthetic stocks of today, although I do have several target rifles with those stocks on them. But, for sporting rifles, no thank you to synthetic anything on a rifle. Good luck with your Niedner. Martyn