Smokeless powder start

rwilson452 · March 2, 2007, 12:10 AM

What was the first cartridge that was developed strictly for smokeless powder. There are a lot that were converted to it but what was the first one that was originally loaded with a smokeless powder.

in what firearm?

SIGSHR · March 2, 2007, 12:31 AM

I believe it is the 8MM Lebel for the M1886 Lebel Rifle.

**Mike Irwin** · March 2, 2007, 01:26 AM

Generally it's considered to be the 8mm Lebel, chambered in the Mle 1886 rifle.

However, that was the first as-designed smokeless small bore rifle cartridge.

What a lot of people don't know is that smokeless powders suitable for use in shotshells had been around for a number of years before that. They simply weren't suitable for use in rifle cartridges.

rwilson452 · March 2, 2007, 07:15 AM

Thanks folks

My 11 yr old grand daughter comes up with the oddest questions sometimes.
She's always trying to stump grandpa.

Gbro · March 2, 2007, 08:07 AM

While the 8MM Lebel, was the 1st,
http://www.chuckhawks.com/8mm_lebel.htm
The Model 1894 Winchester was the 1st American gun designed for the new smokeless cartridges.
This cartridge was the 30WCF, known today as the 30-30Win.
And still on the store shelves today.

**Mike Irwin** · March 2, 2007, 11:59 AM

Gbro,

Actually, the .30-30 shares the title of the first commercially designed/available smokeless powder cartridge in the United States.

The .30-30 and the .25-35 were introduced at the same time.

Because of powder production problems with the new smokeless powders, for the first year the 1894 was available only in .38-55 and .32-40 -- both black powder rounds.

Gbro · March 2, 2007, 11:23 PM

Thanks Mike;
I had that information within arms reach and didn't interpet it right.
I suffer from what i was told, and sometimes that just isn't fact. That is one of the most fantastic aspects of this forum. We learn by our mistakes a lot of the time, however sometimes on forums like this if someone makes a mistake, he come out educated but somewhat bruised, Again thanks Mike.

**Mike Irwin** · March 3, 2007, 11:52 AM

Gbro,

Not a big deal at all, and I do apologize if I was coming across as "corrective" or "preachy."

I'd say few people have actually ever even heard of the .25-35 because it's been pretty much obsolete for decades. I think Winchester dropped it after World War II when they reintroduced the 94 for post war production, and the other big manufacturer, Savage, dropped from the Model 1899 in 1919 in favor of their .250-3000.

I just love cartridge history.

March 2, 2007, 12:10 AM	#1
rwilson452 Senior Member Join Date: June 10, 2004 Location: Tioga co. PA Posts: 2,647	Smokeless powder start What was the first cartridge that was developed strictly for smokeless powder. There are a lot that were converted to it but what was the first one that was originally loaded with a smokeless powder. in what firearm?

March 2, 2007, 01:26 AM	#3
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 14, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,642	Generally it's considered to be the 8mm Lebel, chambered in the Mle 1886 rifle. However, that was the first as-designed smokeless small bore rifle cartridge. What a lot of people don't know is that smokeless powders suitable for use in shotshells had been around for a number of years before that. They simply weren't suitable for use in rifle cartridges. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

March 2, 2007, 08:07 AM	#5
Gbro Senior Member Join Date: February 21, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,084	While the 8MM Lebel, was the 1st, http://www.chuckhawks.com/8mm_lebel.htm The Model 1894 Winchester was the 1st American gun designed for the new smokeless cartridges. This cartridge was the 30WCF, known today as the 30-30Win. And still on the store shelves today. __________________ Gbro CGVS For the message of the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, But to us who are being saved, It Is The Power Of God. 1Corinthians 1-18

March 2, 2007, 11:59 AM	#6
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 14, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,642	Gbro, Actually, the .30-30 shares the title of the first commercially designed/available smokeless powder cartridge in the United States. The .30-30 and the .25-35 were introduced at the same time. Because of powder production problems with the new smokeless powders, for the first year the 1894 was available only in .38-55 and .32-40 -- both black powder rounds. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

March 2, 2007, 11:23 PM	#7
Gbro Senior Member Join Date: February 21, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,084	Thanks Mike; I had that information within arms reach and didn't interpet it right. I suffer from what i was told, and sometimes that just isn't fact. That is one of the most fantastic aspects of this forum. We learn by our mistakes a lot of the time, however sometimes on forums like this if someone makes a mistake, he come out educated but somewhat bruised, Again thanks Mike. __________________ Gbro CGVS For the message of the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, But to us who are being saved, It Is The Power Of God. 1Corinthians 1-18

March 2, 2007, 12:31 AM	#2
SIGSHR Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2005 Posts: 4,712	I believe it is the 8MM Lebel for the M1886 Lebel Rifle.

March 2, 2007, 07:15 AM	#4
rwilson452 Senior Member Join Date: June 10, 2004 Location: Tioga co. PA Posts: 2,647	Thanks folks My 11 yr old grand daughter comes up with the oddest questions sometimes. She's always trying to stump grandpa.

March 3, 2007, 11:52 AM	#8
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 14, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,642	Gbro, Not a big deal at all, and I do apologize if I was coming across as "corrective" or "preachy." I'd say few people have actually ever even heard of the .25-35 because it's been pretty much obsolete for decades. I think Winchester dropped it after World War II when they reintroduced the 94 for post war production, and the other big manufacturer, Savage, dropped from the Model 1899 in 1919 in favor of their .250-3000. I just love cartridge history. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.