CZ Cadet / small bore 1911 ???... your thoughts ???

[Magnum Wheel Man]

as a pretty devote wheel man ( hence the screen name )... I do own several "semi's"... my favorites being the huge Automags... but also in that favorites catagory are my CZ-75's, & my Ruger 22 Government target...

... part of the problem I have with the "semi's" is picking up brass thats sprayed all over, & the fact that even though I've got a lot of work into my nickle Colt 1911, I can't hit the broad side of a barn with it... I really like the CZ-75's about the best of my non magnum "semi's"... so I've been thinking about a CZ Cadet, or similar 1911 trainer... I know Ruger (at least used to ) offers a 45 grip configued 22... I'm not sure what else is out there, but I can drive tacks with a 45-70 TC Contender, or my little Ruger Gov. Target, but only shoot marginally with the other big "semi's" even though I've scoped the Automags... so I'm thinking I need to do some more practicing with a full sized piece with a real slide, rather than the small bolt of the ruger...

CZ Cadet ??? others ???

[Magnum Wheel Man]

no suggestions or thoughts ???

[sabre2]

The Cadet has a traditional double action trigger. It is not as easy to shoot as as a single action type.
I find it to be a great trainer. If I work the size of my groups down with the cadet, I start shooting all my guns better.

[Socrates]

Couple choices. Marvel Conversions for a 1911 are my number one, top of my I want list. SUPER accurate, fixed barrel, IIRC, on a 1911.

I think Springfield, and Kimber, make 9mm 1911's. While not as cheap as 22lr, 9mm in a 1911 is about 3 ft lbs of recoil.
A very light recoiling gun REALLY makes any flinch you've developed noticeable, and correctable.

If you've got a LOT of disposable income, automags were made in some form of 22, IIRC, and, also 357 I believe.
You could pick up a lower caliber, and work on shooting that, as well.

Finally, my current 22's are a Colt Trooper, and, a Beretta Tomcat. I use both to alternate between my bigger guns, to identify any mistakes I'm making, caused by fear, or, very real, excessive recoil. I also use a CZ 452 22lr for the same reason, at the range, with my rifles.

If I had a bit less money in guns, I'd try and find a lightweight wheel gun to shoot 22lr out of, that has the same weight as my 360PD, and same J frame. "The beast"
is quite the handful with full house loads, and, a 22lr would be perfect to detect flinching.

Hope this helps.

S

[Magnum Wheel Man]

Thanks for the reply's... almost forgot... I do have an automag 2, that I picked up used, last year, to add to the collection... I should pull it out & shoot it, I haven't even fired it yet, as I got it last winter, & just put it away...

I guess I'd really like to get better with both the CZ-75, & the 1911... I think after shooting 1000's & 1000's of rounds through my Ruger GVT Target, when I switch to an auto with an actual slide, it's throwing me off... my 1911 has some work put into it, & a dot scope mounted, but it is probably the poorest shooting gun, out of my hands, that I own... I can shoot reasonably with the CZ-75's, just the brass catching / picking up issues, hence my 1st thought of the 22's, along with the cost...

so my initial thought was to buy a Cadet, or a 22 with a 1911 grip profile or similar...

[Majic]

First decide on what trigger action you want to shoot. Practicing on the Ruger with a single action trigger won't be much help when then going to the CZ with the DA/SA trigger. Also strip the 1911 down. The added weight of the red dot is not helping when learning to shoot the pistol.
Pick one trigger style and shoot that exclusively until you get it down pat. Switching back forth will only slow the learning curve. Also check the fit of your 1911. Since you shoot the CZ reasonably well try an arched MSH and long trigger in the 1911 to make it fit like the CZ. Another thing to remember is since the 1911 has been modified the quality of the work may have something to do with how it shoots. Although it's a simple design a lot of people have taken a good 1911 and make it a poor shooter after switching or modifying parts.

[Magnum Wheel Man]

well I'm confident on the work done to the gun, ( was done by a friend with the skills to build guns from scratch... I call him my old "tool & die" buddy ), & the dot scope is frame mounted rather than slide mounted... I suppose I could remove it ( I figured the extra weight to the gun may help with the percieved slide "interference"

a good idea about switching the main spring housing though... I do find the CZ's so ergomatic, in compsarassion to the squarer grip of the 1911... also the Automags ( which I don't seem to shoot too much better with, which I've been blameing on recoil ), have the same but thicker squre grip

BTW ... SOC
I did look at the conversions, they look pretty interesting... trouble is, I'd probably have to bolt one onto another 1911, rather than flipping back & forth...

your guy's thoughts on the Ruger 22/ 45 ???

[vpjack]

Have the Kadet conversion to use on my 85, it is wonderfully accurate, can be used in SA or DA just like the large calibers. For a couple of hundred bucks the versility it gives is great.

Jack

[Jim Watson]

I have a Kadet conversion for my CZ75. It is accurate and feeds reliably. Ejection is erratic but I understand they have corrected that.

You are not stuck with a DA start. The Kadet gun or conversion on most of their 9mms has a perfectly good safety and can go from Condition 1; unless you put it on a BD decocker frame.

[Socrates]

MWM:
What size hands do you have, and what's the trigger pull on your 1911? Have you benched the 1911, to establish if it's the gun, or the shooter? It could just be the wrong grips for your hand size, or, another Colt that doesn't shoot, not that uncommon.

I know I had a match grade Colt Gold Cup, Colt Python, as the first guns I ever shot. The Gold Cup wasn't all it was cracked up to be. The Python was, but, I don't much like 357, even though I bet my life on it now. Figure that one out.

I went to a Detonics, snubby Mark VI, and it shot circles around the full size Gold Cup, as does my Kimber Custom II, that's been worked on quite a bit.

I've never tried a Ruger 22/45, but here's a comment about it:
http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/review/2245_p512.htm

1911's, to me, are about 2-3 pound perfect triggers, and, I have to think yours doesn't have that.

That would be what I would start with. I've checked the Rugers, and Browning buck marks, and both need a bit of trigger work.
I just happened on a Colt Trooper Mark III, that now has custom action, and trigger, in 22lr, and that was what I went with for a 22lr wheel gun.

I'd have a real long look at switching your Colt to the Marvel Conversion, tack driver version, but only after the trigger is checked with a digital pull meter. That would save the collectors part of the Colt, the wear on slide and frame, pretty much, and, I'd get a tack driving 1911.
S&W, Dan Wesson from CZ, Detonics, Sigs 1911's, all would be at the top of my shopping list. If you don't want to do the conversion, buy a 9mm 1911, buy Kimber or SA. They recoil just a hair more then a 22lr, and, you can actually use the gun for serious work, along with super cheap ammo being avaliable.

I don't find 45 ACP to really recoil at all, so, you might consider selling the Colt, and getting a Wilson Combat, or something that is promised, and tested, to be tack driving accurate, out of the box. Also, you maybe one of those strange people that 1911's just don't fit, despite all the tweaking, and, it would be better to sell the gun, and go to
a CZ in 45 ACP. They are big guns, but, don't recoil much, and, are real accurate.

I'm a bit perplexed, since my memory of a CZ 75 is it was a gun that was good for people with big hands....

S

[Magnum Wheel Man]

I'm a big guy, with proportionally sized hands ( though the Automag 5 with the frame / grip mounted scope mount, & slip over rubber finger groove grip cover, stretches my grip a bit ), the 1911 seems to fit well... I'm sure I knew what the trigger was set to, when I had the work done ( it is light & crisp )... maybe too light ???... BTW... the gun was part of my wife's fathers collection we inherited, so I have no interest in getting rid of, or trading in the gun, even if it turns out to be one of those "poor shooters"... I should pull it out & try it on the bench again...

maybe that marvel conversion might be the best thing I could do to that piece... I do have a P-90, though I don't shoot it often, & I don't really care for it as much as the nickle 1911... I do shoot better with it... I'm thinking I could use some more practice time with the "semi's", as I aced my range test in the fastest time of my CCW class with my revolver... I'm appearently much more comfortable / practiced with the Contenders, & wheel guns...

[chris in va]

FWIW I thoroughly enjoy my Kadet slide conversion. Scary accurate, fully adjustable rear sight and just doesn't jam. Only drawback is having to load the 10rd mag. Wish they made a 100rd drum or something.

To make a finer point, I like to hang bowling pins from a branch about 80 yards out or so. I can usually hit the sucker 7 out of 10 shots. Standing up, unbraced.

The whole slide doesn't move like on other semi's, so the barrel stays fixed in place, similar to a Ruger.

[Socrates]

Been crusing around a bit, and, IIRC, the CZ75 is a Sig P210, more or less. Like the Sigs, they have horrible, heavy triggers, starting around 7 pounds, often, in SA, and more in DA.

They can be moved down to around 3 pounds. Now, MWM, if you shoot the CZ well, why not just go with the CZ 75/P210 design semi auto, and get a cadet? It's cheaper then the Marvel conversion. Also, appears you aren't used to light triggers, so, maybe that 1911 should go back in the safe, and, I'll email you my address, and you can send me Lee's automags.

S

[Mikke]

Been crusing around a bit, and, IIRC, the CZ75 is a Sig P210, more or less. Like the Sigs, they have horrible, heavy triggers, starting around 7 pounds, often, in SA, and more in DA.

ROFLMAO Your recollection is a bit off, to say the least. Triggers on all P210's I've tested have been really good, think good S&W revolver single action trigger. Yes, they are pure SA.
The CZ75 is quite different, for starters it's a DA/SA trigger, often not great from the factory, but less then 7 pounds on SA. Trigger on my CZ is around #3.5 and pretty clean, I haven't done any work on it except shooting it a lot, but it might have been trimmed before I got it. Late pre-B so it's without the firing pin block.

As to the original question, get the Cadet.

[Socrates]

Well, Mikee
I was talking about the stock, service model. The P210-6 comes with an adjustable trigger, and, the target models have wonderful triggers as well.

And,
you are correct, the P210 uses a BLOW BACK design for operation!!!! The rail design is similar to the CZ.

Wow, I can spend 2-4K and get a gun with a design that's avaliable in a Beretta 950, for 100 dollars. WHAT A DEAL!!! .

I don't care how accurate they are, that's a design used for low power cartridges, like the .380. That and the 100 dollar magazines make me want to stay with other guns, that will out shoot it, everyday. Custom revolvers.

As for the CZ trigger pulls, that was taken from a combination of gunsmithing sites, and forums, on fixing CZ's.

To me, used to under 3 pound trigger pulls, on target accurate guns, NONE of these have 'good' trigger pulls.

S

[Mikke]

As far as I know all P210, as well as the earlier 47/8 have the same type of trigger, and the more service oriented versions I have tried have had just as good triggers.

you are correct, the P210 uses a BLOW BACK design for operation!!!!

Wrong again, the P210 is no more of a blow back then any 1911 or Glock.
But yes, rail design on the CZ75 was probably copied from the P210 some 30 years later. How the barrel locks, slide release etc is also very close.
Reasons I don't own a P210 is it's ergonomics that doesn't fit me, and their tendency to develop cracks in the frame if shot much with hard loads.