Graf & Sons black powder

freddyp · January 30, 2006, 11:38 AM

For the last several months I've searched, but have been unable to find any posts on this BP sold under the Graf name. I see that it is a little cheaper than Goex, but so far no-one has posted their results with this brand. Any feed-back would be appreciated.

Old Dragoon · January 30, 2006, 11:52 AM

Doesn't MEC use that Bp amoung others?

gmatov · January 31, 2006, 12:16 AM

Freddy,

How much cheaper is it? I posted a link to GOEX at 11.69 a pound, shipping & handling, and HAZMAT fee included. That's 3 bucks a pound cheaper than I can get it locally, and 7 % sales tax on top of that.

Was almost ready to make a 35 mile trip to buy out a store that is closing down, now feel ripped off paying them 14.79 + tax for the last 5 pounds I bought there.

Cheers,

George

tinker2 · January 31, 2006, 11:31 AM

This place?

http://www.grafs.com/powders/3522

mec · January 31, 2006, 04:47 PM

I see they advertise Goex. The only thing Ive bought from them was Pinnacle . It carries a hazmat fee and I suspose they operate the same way with black powder. My delivery came through fine.

freddyp · January 31, 2006, 08:56 PM

Mec,
Graf's dealer cost is 7.99 for their lable Bp, and 8.59 for Goex. Not much difference, but I'm always game to try something different. Now these prices don't include shipping or hazmat. Obviously the more you buy, the cheaper it becomes per pound.

gmatov · January 31, 2006, 10:48 PM

Ten pound of Graf's 3f is 12.36 per pound, Goex, 12.96 per pound, 20 buck HazMat fee, 3.75 S&H.

23.75 fixed cost plus powder. Didn't check to see if S&H went up with 25 pound order. Maine Powderhouse is sounding better to me.

Cheers,

George

edit: Just did check, S&H the same, HazMat doubles to 40 bucks.

freddyp · February 16, 2006, 12:10 PM

Well I ordered some of the Graf 2F and 3F, along with Swiss 2F. After it shows up, I'll shoot it over a chrono and report back.

mec · February 16, 2006, 12:26 PM

Should be interesting. Very likely will produce lower velocities than Swiss- seems like everything does but that doesn't detract from the potential usefulness. High velocity is pretty far down the list with these guns anyway.

Wayner · February 16, 2006, 12:31 PM

www.powderinc.com will ship as low as five cans of powder.

gmatov · February 16, 2006, 11:42 PM

It has been written elsewhere that it is repackaged Wano, or packaged for Graf by Wano. Wano is supposed to be on the Graf's can.

I don't know Wano, so any of you who do, let us know how it is.

Cheers,

George

freddyp · February 28, 2006, 02:02 PM

My order arrived and I got a chance to do some testing of the Graf powder. The first thing I did was to compare the volume vs. weight of Swiss, Goex, and Elephant against the Graf powder. I used a 100gr volume measure for all the measurements.

Graf 2F= 102.6 avg.
Swiss 2F= 106.6 avg
Elephant 2F= 104.4 avg
Graf 3F= 98.7 avg
Goex 3F= 97.8 avg

Next I went out a shot some of it to see how it performed against other powders. All of the testing was done with a Ruger 77/50, RWS caps, Harvester crush 50/45 sabots and a Lee 300gr FN cast bullet was used. During testing the only variable was the powder charge.

Graf 2F 120gr= 1455fps ES48 SD18
Elephant 2F 120gr= 1438fps ES37 SD21
Swiss 2F 120gr= 1724fps ES13 SD6
Swiss 2F 100gr= 1591fps ES13 SD4
Pyro RS 100gr= 1495fps ES29 SD14

I also tried the Graf 3F against Goex 3F, but testing was very limited. Using Goex 3F with 100gr volume gave a velocity of 1487fps. The same load using Graf 3F gave 1400fps.

During testing a few things were apparent that are worth mentioning. Swiss gave the highest velocity of the real black powders tested. The Swiss 2F performance was similar to Pyrodex P. One thing that the Swiss did that no other powder did, was it would vaporize the RWS cap. The whole nipple area would turn copper after a few shots and there was no cap to remove. After firing Swiss, I noticed that the fouling in the barrel was white. Black powder (Goex,Graf,Elephant) is either canary yellow or lt. green. I found this strange and began to wonder if the Swiss add some other secret ingredient. That might help explain its' superior performance. The Graf powder appears to have a performance level similar to Elephant Brand powder, which is lower than Goex. The Graf was cleaner burning than Elephant and about the same or better than Goex. The Graf powder showed the same accuracy potential as other blackpowders in my rifle, taking into consideration the limited testing. All things considered, I think that Graf Powder has potential and a good alternative to those who liked Elephant Brand powder.

mec · February 28, 2006, 03:21 PM

Excellent piece of work!

January 30, 2006, 11:38 AM	#1
freddyp Junior Member Join Date: May 31, 2005 Posts: 5	Graf & Sons black powder For the last several months I've searched, but have been unable to find any posts on this BP sold under the Graf name. I see that it is a little cheaper than Goex, but so far no-one has posted their results with this brand. Any feed-back would be appreciated.

January 30, 2006, 11:52 AM	#2
Old Dragoon Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2005 Location: The Republic of Californi Posts: 581	Doesn't MEC use that Bp amoung others?

January 31, 2006, 12:16 AM	#3
gmatov Junior member Join Date: September 20, 2005 Posts: 346	Freddy, How much cheaper is it? I posted a link to GOEX at 11.69 a pound, shipping & handling, and HAZMAT fee included. That's 3 bucks a pound cheaper than I can get it locally, and 7 % sales tax on top of that. Was almost ready to make a 35 mile trip to buy out a store that is closing down, now feel ripped off paying them 14.79 + tax for the last 5 pounds I bought there. Cheers, George

January 31, 2006, 11:31 AM	#4
tinker2 Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2005 Location: Dakotas Posts: 144	This place? http://www.grafs.com/powders/3522

January 31, 2006, 04:47 PM	#5
mec Junior member Join Date: December 6, 2001 Posts: 1,536	I see they advertise Goex. The only thing Ive bought from them was Pinnacle . It carries a hazmat fee and I suspose they operate the same way with black powder. My delivery came through fine.

January 31, 2006, 08:56 PM	#6
freddyp Junior Member Join Date: May 31, 2005 Posts: 5	Mec, Graf's dealer cost is 7.99 for their lable Bp, and 8.59 for Goex. Not much difference, but I'm always game to try something different. Now these prices don't include shipping or hazmat. Obviously the more you buy, the cheaper it becomes per pound.

January 31, 2006, 10:48 PM	#7
gmatov Junior member Join Date: September 20, 2005 Posts: 346	Ten pound of Graf's 3f is 12.36 per pound, Goex, 12.96 per pound, 20 buck HazMat fee, 3.75 S&H. 23.75 fixed cost plus powder. Didn't check to see if S&H went up with 25 pound order. Maine Powderhouse is sounding better to me. Cheers, George edit: Just did check, S&H the same, HazMat doubles to 40 bucks.

February 16, 2006, 12:10 PM	#8
freddyp Junior Member Join Date: May 31, 2005 Posts: 5	Well I ordered some of the Graf 2F and 3F, along with Swiss 2F. After it shows up, I'll shoot it over a chrono and report back.

February 16, 2006, 12:26 PM	#9
mec Junior member Join Date: December 6, 2001 Posts: 1,536	Should be interesting. Very likely will produce lower velocities than Swiss- seems like everything does but that doesn't detract from the potential usefulness. High velocity is pretty far down the list with these guns anyway.

February 16, 2006, 12:31 PM	#10
Wayner Senior Member Join Date: December 8, 2005 Posts: 116	www.powderinc.com will ship as low as five cans of powder.

February 16, 2006, 11:42 PM	#11
gmatov Junior member Join Date: September 20, 2005 Posts: 346	It has been written elsewhere that it is repackaged Wano, or packaged for Graf by Wano. Wano is supposed to be on the Graf's can. I don't know Wano, so any of you who do, let us know how it is. Cheers, George

February 28, 2006, 02:02 PM	#12
freddyp Junior Member Join Date: May 31, 2005 Posts: 5	My order arrived and I got a chance to do some testing of the Graf powder. The first thing I did was to compare the volume vs. weight of Swiss, Goex, and Elephant against the Graf powder. I used a 100gr volume measure for all the measurements. Graf 2F= 102.6 avg. Swiss 2F= 106.6 avg Elephant 2F= 104.4 avg Graf 3F= 98.7 avg Goex 3F= 97.8 avg Next I went out a shot some of it to see how it performed against other powders. All of the testing was done with a Ruger 77/50, RWS caps, Harvester crush 50/45 sabots and a Lee 300gr FN cast bullet was used. During testing the only variable was the powder charge. Graf 2F 120gr= 1455fps ES48 SD18 Elephant 2F 120gr= 1438fps ES37 SD21 Swiss 2F 120gr= 1724fps ES13 SD6 Swiss 2F 100gr= 1591fps ES13 SD4 Pyro RS 100gr= 1495fps ES29 SD14 I also tried the Graf 3F against Goex 3F, but testing was very limited. Using Goex 3F with 100gr volume gave a velocity of 1487fps. The same load using Graf 3F gave 1400fps. During testing a few things were apparent that are worth mentioning. Swiss gave the highest velocity of the real black powders tested. The Swiss 2F performance was similar to Pyrodex P. One thing that the Swiss did that no other powder did, was it would vaporize the RWS cap. The whole nipple area would turn copper after a few shots and there was no cap to remove. After firing Swiss, I noticed that the fouling in the barrel was white. Black powder (Goex,Graf,Elephant) is either canary yellow or lt. green. I found this strange and began to wonder if the Swiss add some other secret ingredient. That might help explain its' superior performance. The Graf powder appears to have a performance level similar to Elephant Brand powder, which is lower than Goex. The Graf was cleaner burning than Elephant and about the same or better than Goex. The Graf powder showed the same accuracy potential as other blackpowders in my rifle, taking into consideration the limited testing. All things considered, I think that Graf Powder has potential and a good alternative to those who liked Elephant Brand powder.

February 28, 2006, 03:21 PM	#13
mec Junior member Join Date: December 6, 2001 Posts: 1,536	Excellent piece of work!