Cocked and Locked

birdie · August 5, 2002, 01:26 AM

I have a CCW and carry as my main gun a Springfield Ultra Compact in 9mm. At my range today we had some LEO's shooting who were telling me a better way to carry is, condition 3, which I think is the mag loaded but chamber empty. What are your thoughts??

Zander · August 5, 2002, 01:39 AM

Knowledgeable people would disagree with those LEOs.

cowpuncher/pi · August 5, 2002, 01:39 AM

I have a couple of 1911's. I carry cocked and locked all the time.
Never had the safety come off unless I took It off. With the grip safety and keep your finger off trigger, I don't see the "better way to carry". But, if you elect to carry this way I would practice racking a round to fire till your muscle memory kicks in. The truth as i see it.

kpw · August 5, 2002, 01:57 AM

Not all LEOs are gun people....just proves that point....again.

Caseless · August 5, 2002, 02:47 AM

It seems like a "safe" way to carry in condition 3. However, I personally think this only applies to police and military, who usually have a reason to draw their weapons FIRST. For self-defense use, because you are reacting to a threat, you can never count on having all two hands free to use the holstered gun. (especially if you stick to the 7 yard rule most trainers teach in self-defense classes) Things happen too fast at this close distance.

mjby · August 5, 2002, 05:02 AM

I very rarely carry my BHP condition one (c&l) unless I'm in IPSC competition. Yes, it's as safe as you are.
Condition three can be reasonably fast - with practice nearly break even with condition one (key word - practice).
Why condition three for me? I have kids at home with access to my night table, and, also, for some reason knowing that I have to be extra careful makes my finger itch.
Bottom line - do what you're comfortable and confident with and take responsibility for your decision.

Navy joe · August 5, 2002, 08:05 AM

And I'm sure these Leo types carried their guns in CIII right? "Careful now there little citizen, wouldn't want to hurt yourself with that big scary gun"

M1911 · August 5, 2002, 08:55 AM

The problem that I have with condition 3 is that if you ever need your gun, you'll need it real bad and you'll need it right now. Yes, you can rack the slide relatively quickly, but only if you have 2 hands available. And your support hand might be busy -- fending off the perp, pushing a loved one to cover, opening a door, etc. There are techniques for racking the slide with one hand, but they aren't terribly fast or terribly foolproof.

If condition 3 works for you, fine. But just recognize the disadvantages.

M1911

johnwill · August 5, 2002, 09:20 AM

I agree with the guy that offers the opinion that the LEO's are from the "do as I say", not "as I do" school of thought. I guess some egos can't accept that a non-LEO can be as good or better than they are with a pistol.

As far as C3 carry, I can't see the point. I also don't get the part about kids, since "carry" implies that the gun is in your direct control at all times, so that should be a non-issue. If you plan on relinquishing control, then locking it up or unloading it seems prudent.

CastleBravo · August 5, 2002, 09:29 AM

Dumb.

Double Naught Spy · August 5, 2002, 09:29 AM

Condition 3 is a better way to carry your 1911 under what circumstances? There may be cirucmstances where Condition 3 is the better alternative given some specific parameters, but if the gun is for self defense, Condition 3 is not going to be the quickest way to have a weapon ready and as noted, it works best if you have two hands to rack the slide, although it can be done one-handed, but that sort of task is probably best left to drills where you simulate one arm disabled and you have to reload or clear a malfunction one-handed.

Hard Ball · August 5, 2002, 09:39 AM

DON"T DO IT!
If you ever need to defend yourself with a 1911 design pistol any other condition than cocked and locked puts your life at risk.
By the way. were these LEQs carrying 1911s?

GunsnRovers · August 5, 2002, 10:00 AM

Depending on your situation, Condition 3 does make sense.

I think Condition 1 is better for self defense, but Condition 3 can be very fast and it's the "safest" way to carry. On the plus side, it totally does away with the need to thumb safety. In that regard it really makes sense for older Colts and Hi-Powers with the tiny old style thumb safeties.

If they would have said Condition 2, I would have thrown their comments out the window, but their opinion on Condition 3 isn't so out of line that I would dismiss it.

It's an opinion and worth about as much as any opinion in this thread.

Jeff

warhammer357 · August 5, 2002, 12:50 PM

Kinda funny aint it, the same fellows who tell you condition three will get you killed dont think twice when recommending the pump action shotgun which takes two hands to utilize for EACH shot....
If you are safe and comfortable with cocked and locked, carry that way.
If you are quick and comfortable with empty chamber and loaded mag, carry that way too.
Dont let somebody else make up your mind for you. If you use proper technique you will have two hands on the pistol anyway.

the blind lefty · August 5, 2002, 01:24 PM

the 1911 safety is a very secure design. frame mounted,fits in a milled notch in the slide, grip safety;it was designed to be cocked&locked.
i know the isrealy military carries/carried in condition 3. that's an endorsement in itself.
i trust my p-10.i guess that's what it comes down to...

M1911 · August 5, 2002, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Kinda funny aint it, the same fellows who tell you condition three will get you killed dont think twice when recommending the pump action shotgun which takes two hands to utilize for EACH shot

And where, exactly, did I recommend a pump shotgun for carrying concealed? Ensconsed defense at home is a very different scenario than CCW. Personally, I prefer a semi-auto shotgun over a pump.

Quote:

If you use proper technique you will have two hands on the pistol anyway.

As I mentioned previously, you can't always have two hands on your gun. Ideally, yes, but life isn't ideal.

After this years and last year's NTI, John Farnam has commented that he ended up using one-handed shooting very often:

http://www.defense-training.com/quips/31May02.html

Quote:

If you are quick and comfortable with empty chamber and loaded mag, carry that way too.

And if you care to look at what I wrote, you'll see that I write: "If condition 3 works for you, fine. But just recognize the disadvantages." Which is basically the same thing.

M1911

**Mal H** · August 5, 2002, 02:16 PM

There have been many good reasons against LEO's carrying in C3.

Here's another:
A trooper has just pulled over a car for speeding. As he is walking to the car, he gets that 6th sense feeling to be very cautious and to be prepared for the worst. So he pulls out his pistol and racks the slide to chamber a cartridge. This is witnessed by the driver. Suspecting that he has a rogue cop here (let's say he watches too many Clint Eastwood movies), he speeds off, leaving the trooper in the dust. He has just turned a simple speeding ticket into a probable felony. All because he was scared s-less by a well intentioned trooper carrying carelessly.

All I know is if someone is walking up to me and racks the slide, one of us is in big trouble.

jimsbowies · August 5, 2002, 02:32 PM

That "racking" would and could easily be the supreme fodder for a plaintiff's attorney....what would be the difference in doing that and a revolver-toting cop "cocking" his big nasty "police" revolver? None! Of course NONE!

There have been instances where the "racking" of a round into a firearm has been deemed as sufficient as to reach the level of an assault! Frankly, if someone did that to me and in my presence, I'd be 1) seeking cover, 2) trying to get my hands on my gun and/or 3) running like hell.

The "locked and cocked" has worked just fine for the millions and millions and billions and gazillions of rounds shot in weekly competitions by thousands of participants around the country. And for the skilled pistolero who can carry pistols that feature the ability to go about "locked and cocked", this is the gun of choice.

Someone made some mention of the "gun knowledge" of police officers.....I agree....no relationship between the two....

Carry your piece locked and cocked....practice first, obtain a good piece of leather or a holster that contains and retains the pistol to your satisfaction...practice so that you're not placing your finger on the trigger until the weapon is clear, pointed downrange (or at your target), be certain you're not sweeping anyone (including yourself).....you'll be just fine....

buzz_knox · August 5, 2002, 02:57 PM

Condition 3 is great if you practice religiously, can see the threat coming in sufficient time, and are 100% guaranteed use of both hands. If you have an injury to the other hand or if you have something else in it (like the bad guy's knife hand) your weapon is now a poorly designed impact weapon.

Condition 3 is for people who are too nervous about Condition 1. In that case, buy a Sig.

krept · August 5, 2002, 03:46 PM

Wow, you mean they actually advocate having loaded magazines in their pistols? Sounds like an accident waiting to happen

M1911 · August 5, 2002, 04:22 PM

Quote:

So he pulls out his pistol and racks the slide to chamber a cartridge.

And, of course, drops his ticket book in a mud puddle in the process. Doh!

M1911

Mo_Zam_Beek · August 5, 2002, 04:36 PM

Not all LEOs are gun people....just proves that point....again.

Point well made.

However, not all CCWs are gun people either.

YOU need to do what YOU feel is the safest, most responsible thing that YOU can do given YOUR level of training and comfort.

the duck of death · August 5, 2002, 05:33 PM

I don't know how many people have told me its safe to carry cocked and locked in one breath then in the next tell me how many times they have found the safety off when they have unholstered the gun. Looks to me like you can't have it both ways. The only guns I'll carry with one in the pipe start double action, but that's for me and I'm not in the business to tell anyone else what gun to carry or how to carry it.

Tamara · August 5, 2002, 08:00 PM

Quote:

...how many times they have found the safety off when they have unholstered the gun.

Sounds like you know a lot of people who need more positive safeties and/or better leather gear. Never has happened to me.

GSB · August 5, 2002, 08:10 PM

Sounds like odd advice. Frankly, if someone is nervous about carrying an SA cocked and locked, they are probably better served with a DA/SA decocked on a chambered round.

August 5, 2002, 01:26 AM	#1
birdie Member Join Date: August 4, 2002 Location: Boulder, Colorado Posts: 70	Cocked and Locked I have a CCW and carry as my main gun a Springfield Ultra Compact in 9mm. At my range today we had some LEO's shooting who were telling me a better way to carry is, condition 3, which I think is the mag loaded but chamber empty. What are your thoughts??

August 5, 2002, 01:39 AM	#3
cowpuncher/pi Junior Member Join Date: November 8, 2001 Location: oklahoma Posts: 14	C&L I have a couple of 1911's. I carry cocked and locked all the time. Never had the safety come off unless I took It off. With the grip safety and keep your finger off trigger, I don't see the "better way to carry". But, if you elect to carry this way I would practice racking a round to fire till your muscle memory kicks in. The truth as i see it.

August 5, 2002, 09:29 AM	#11
Double Naught Spy Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX Posts: 12,793	Condition 3 is a better way to carry your 1911 under what circumstances? There may be cirucmstances where Condition 3 is the better alternative given some specific parameters, but if the gun is for self defense, Condition 3 is not going to be the quickest way to have a weapon ready and as noted, it works best if you have two hands to rack the slide, although it can be done one-handed, but that sort of task is probably best left to drills where you simulate one arm disabled and you have to reload or clear a malfunction one-handed. __________________ "If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange

August 5, 2002, 10:00 AM	#13
GunsnRovers Senior Member Join Date: June 25, 2002 Location: Lost Angeles Posts: 782	no right answer Depending on your situation, Condition 3 does make sense. I think Condition 1 is better for self defense, but Condition 3 can be very fast and it's the "safest" way to carry. On the plus side, it totally does away with the need to thumb safety. In that regard it really makes sense for older Colts and Hi-Powers with the tiny old style thumb safeties. If they would have said Condition 2, I would have thrown their comments out the window, but their opinion on Condition 3 isn't so out of line that I would dismiss it. It's an opinion and worth about as much as any opinion in this thread. Jeff __________________ Jeff The reason we're all here is that we're not all there.

August 5, 2002, 12:50 PM	#14
warhammer357 Junior member Join Date: April 1, 2002 Location: the boonies, west virginia Posts: 362	Pump gun Kinda funny aint it, the same fellows who tell you condition three will get you killed dont think twice when recommending the pump action shotgun which takes two hands to utilize for EACH shot.... If you are safe and comfortable with cocked and locked, carry that way. If you are quick and comfortable with empty chamber and loaded mag, carry that way too. Dont let somebody else make up your mind for you. If you use proper technique you will have two hands on the pistol anyway.

August 5, 2002, 01:39 AM	#2
Zander Junior member Join Date: December 11, 2000 Location: Middle and East Tennessee, USA Posts: 2,059	Knowledgeable people would disagree with those LEOs.

August 5, 2002, 01:57 AM	#4
kpw Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2002 Location: NW PA Posts: 160	Not all LEOs are gun people....just proves that point....again.

August 5, 2002, 02:47 AM	#5
Caseless Senior Member Join Date: April 8, 2002 Location: P.R.C. Posts: 121	It seems like a "safe" way to carry in condition 3. However, I personally think this only applies to police and military, who usually have a reason to draw their weapons FIRST. For self-defense use, because you are reacting to a threat, you can never count on having all two hands free to use the holstered gun. (especially if you stick to the 7 yard rule most trainers teach in self-defense classes) Things happen too fast at this close distance.

August 5, 2002, 05:02 AM	#6
mjby Member Join Date: June 13, 2002 Location: Jerusalem, Israel Posts: 19	I very rarely carry my BHP condition one (c&l) unless I'm in IPSC competition. Yes, it's as safe as you are. Condition three can be reasonably fast - with practice nearly break even with condition one (key word - practice). Why condition three for me? I have kids at home with access to my night table, and, also, for some reason knowing that I have to be extra careful makes my finger itch. Bottom line - do what you're comfortable and confident with and take responsibility for your decision.

August 5, 2002, 08:05 AM	#7
Navy joe Senior Member Join Date: January 28, 2001 Location: VA, USA Posts: 1,804	And I'm sure these Leo types carried their guns in CIII right? "Careful now there little citizen, wouldn't want to hurt yourself with that big scary gun"

August 5, 2002, 08:55 AM	#8
M1911 Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 2000 Posts: 4,055	The problem that I have with condition 3 is that if you ever need your gun, you'll need it real bad and you'll need it right now. Yes, you can rack the slide relatively quickly, but only if you have 2 hands available. And your support hand might be busy -- fending off the perp, pushing a loved one to cover, opening a door, etc. There are techniques for racking the slide with one hand, but they aren't terribly fast or terribly foolproof. If condition 3 works for you, fine. But just recognize the disadvantages. M1911

August 5, 2002, 09:20 AM	#9
johnwill Senior Member Join Date: April 6, 2000 Location: PA Posts: 3,451	I agree with the guy that offers the opinion that the LEO's are from the "do as I say", not "as I do" school of thought. I guess some egos can't accept that a non-LEO can be as good or better than they are with a pistol. As far as C3 carry, I can't see the point. I also don't get the part about kids, since "carry" implies that the gun is in your direct control at all times, so that should be a non-issue. If you plan on relinquishing control, then locking it up or unloading it seems prudent.

August 5, 2002, 09:29 AM	#10
CastleBravo Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 1999 Posts: 2,144	Dumb.

August 5, 2002, 09:39 AM	#12
Hard Ball Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 1999 Location: California Posts: 3,925	DON"T DO IT! If you ever need to defend yourself with a 1911 design pistol any other condition than cocked and locked puts your life at risk. By the way. were these LEQs carrying 1911s?

August 5, 2002, 01:24 PM	#15
the blind lefty Senior Member Join Date: July 17, 2002 Location: ohio Posts: 320	the 1911 safety is a very secure design. frame mounted,fits in a milled notch in the slide, grip safety;it was designed to be cocked&locked. i know the isrealy military carries/carried in condition 3. that's an endorsement in itself. i trust my p-10.i guess that's what it comes down to...

August 5, 2002, 02:16 PM	#17
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia Posts: 17,067	There have been many good reasons against LEO's carrying in C3. Here's another: A trooper has just pulled over a car for speeding. As he is walking to the car, he gets that 6th sense feeling to be very cautious and to be prepared for the worst. So he pulls out his pistol and racks the slide to chamber a cartridge. This is witnessed by the driver. Suspecting that he has a rogue cop here (let's say he watches too many Clint Eastwood movies), he speeds off, leaving the trooper in the dust. He has just turned a simple speeding ticket into a probable felony. All because he was scared s-less by a well intentioned trooper carrying carelessly. All I know is if someone is walking up to me and racks the slide, one of us is in big trouble.

August 5, 2002, 02:32 PM	#18
jimsbowies Senior Member Join Date: January 9, 2002 Location: Charlotte Posts: 332	I agree with Mal H That "racking" would and could easily be the supreme fodder for a plaintiff's attorney....what would be the difference in doing that and a revolver-toting cop "cocking" his big nasty "police" revolver? None! Of course NONE! There have been instances where the "racking" of a round into a firearm has been deemed as sufficient as to reach the level of an assault! Frankly, if someone did that to me and in my presence, I'd be 1) seeking cover, 2) trying to get my hands on my gun and/or 3) running like hell. The "locked and cocked" has worked just fine for the millions and millions and billions and gazillions of rounds shot in weekly competitions by thousands of participants around the country. And for the skilled pistolero who can carry pistols that feature the ability to go about "locked and cocked", this is the gun of choice. Someone made some mention of the "gun knowledge" of police officers.....I agree....no relationship between the two.... Carry your piece locked and cocked....practice first, obtain a good piece of leather or a holster that contains and retains the pistol to your satisfaction...practice so that you're not placing your finger on the trigger until the weapon is clear, pointed downrange (or at your target), be certain you're not sweeping anyone (including yourself).....you'll be just fine....

August 5, 2002, 02:57 PM	#19
buzz_knox Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 1999 Location: Knoxville, in the Free State of Tennesse Posts: 4,190	Condition 3 is great if you practice religiously, can see the threat coming in sufficient time, and are 100% guaranteed use of both hands. If you have an injury to the other hand or if you have something else in it (like the bad guy's knife hand) your weapon is now a poorly designed impact weapon. Condition 3 is for people who are too nervous about Condition 1. In that case, buy a Sig.

August 5, 2002, 03:46 PM	#20
krept Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 2000 Location: AZ Posts: 1,363	Wow, you mean they actually advocate having loaded magazines in their pistols? Sounds like an accident waiting to happen

August 5, 2002, 04:36 PM	#22
Mo_Zam_Beek Senior Member Join Date: August 20, 2001 Posts: 308	Not all LEOs are gun people....just proves that point....again. Point well made. However, not all CCWs are gun people either. YOU need to do what YOU feel is the safest, most responsible thing that YOU can do given YOUR level of training and comfort.

August 5, 2002, 05:33 PM	#23
the duck of death Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2002 Posts: 299	I don't know how many people have told me its safe to carry cocked and locked in one breath then in the next tell me how many times they have found the safety off when they have unholstered the gun. Looks to me like you can't have it both ways. The only guns I'll carry with one in the pipe start double action, but that's for me and I'm not in the business to tell anyone else what gun to carry or how to carry it.

August 5, 2002, 08:10 PM	#25
GSB Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2001 Location: Florida Posts: 939	Sounds like odd advice. Frankly, if someone is nervous about carrying an SA cocked and locked, they are probably better served with a DA/SA decocked on a chambered round.