Over-travel and accuracy

iMagUdspEllr · December 7, 2011, 08:42 PM

I have read about trigger take-up (doesn't affect accuracy), creep (may affect accuracy?), and over-travel (some say a little is better and some say none is better).

I read an article (talking about rifle triggers) that said over-travel is desirable because if you have no over-travel (or very little) then while the firing pin is igniting the primer your finger is "hitting" the over-travel stop and this causes the rifle to vibrate a little bit before the bullet has left the barrel (and thus slightly affecting accuracy). So that author advocated having a little more over-travel than many people seem to advocate, in order to ensure your finger is still in motion ("over-travelling") while the bullet leaves the barrel (eliminating the movement caused when your finger causes the trigger to hit the over-travel stop until after the bullet has left the barrel). I don't know if there is any truth to that... I'm just repeating what I read.

That article triggered me to think about over-travel in handguns. I believe a good trigger is even more important in a handgun for accuracy because your firing hand also assists with supporting the weapon and pointing the weapon let alone pulling the trigger. It seems to me that you might want to have over-travel in a handgun for the same reason that author suggested having over-travel in a rifle.

However, my opinion shifted as I began to think about it more. It seems, due to your strong hand not just being responsible for breaking the trigger but also supporting and aiming the gun, over-travel might be an undesirable thing as your hand sympathetically closes and squeezes all your fingers together in order to follow your index finger's lead (thus causing the gun to shift minutes of a degree off target as the hammer falls to ignite the primer).

Then again, I don't see why the barrel wouldn't shift slightly off target due to your finger "hitting" the over-travel stop before the bullet has left the barrel.

What are your opinions, experiences, and theories on the subject?

Ruark · December 7, 2011, 08:48 PM

In the crushing, overwhelming stress of a gunfight situation, you won't notice any characteristics of the trigger pull.

The only thing that might matter is the overall length of the pull; a short, single action pull can be fired slightly faster than a longer double action pull. That's why Steel Challenge and IPSC shooters invariably use single action semiautos.

iMagUdspEllr · December 7, 2011, 09:16 PM

People don't always shoot guns in a gunfight

And, sometimes people want to be as accurate as possible.

**Aguila Blanca** · December 7, 2011, 11:13 PM

I have a drawer full of overtravel screws from 1911 triggers I've installed. Unless you're a bullseye shooter you don't need it, and if it's there Bubba's sho 'nuff gonna try to adjust it, just because he can, and because Bubba sho 'nuff knows more about how a 1911 works than the people who build them.

Wish I had a dollar for every time someone has complained about hammer follow, or sear problems, and then under questioning acknowledges that he turned the little screw in because that's what [__fill in name of expert friend/relative__] said was the way to adjust the trigger pull on a 1911.

iMagUdspEllr · December 8, 2011, 12:50 AM

@Aguila Blanca: Yeah that can be an issue with the 1911 platform. However, it really isn't fair to knock the ability to adjust the over-travel on a 1911 just because people are capable of doing it incorrectly (people are capable of screwing up anything). It might be a different story if someone could accidentally adjust the over-travel screw. They can't though. You actually have to decide to adjust it, break out the allen, and then go tinkering away.

In your experience, how much over-travel do most precision shooters have (not just 1911s, all platforms. I know we are kinda focusing on 1911s right now)?

Do most feel stock is fine, just a little bit is best, or almost no over-travel (without damaging their firearm)?

pilpens · December 8, 2011, 09:00 AM

OVER-TRAVEL:
I have different setting on different guns.
.22 pistols have minimal to none.
2 1911s have minimal -- adjusted so that when the trigger is at it's rearmost position, Hammer does not catch when it moves up/down.
1 1911 has a bit more than the other 1911s - does not seem to hurt.
DA/SA revolvers have more (a lot more) over-travel than my 1911s.
DA/SA pistols -- whatever the factory setting they came with.

SA/DA revolver in SA mode - Some over-travel movement improved my groups compared to when I had some set to minimal over-travel.
SA .22 pistols - setting does not seem to hurt accuracy but the trigger feels better with minimal over-travel than with no over-travel stop.
1911s - I like them with minimal over-travel but cannot tell if it hurts or helps accuracy.
========
TAKE-UP: does not seem to bother me much.
========
CREEP: 1 of my .22 Ruger MKII has an annoying noticeable smooth creep - causes me to pull my shot. 1 of my Kimber 1911 has a some smooth creep but not noticeable when shooting - no issue with accuracy.
========

Overall, I voted minimal over-travel.
1. I prefer minimal over-travel movement.
2. Over-travel movement does not seem to hurt my shooting.
3. Noticeable CREEP, I do not like.

**Aguila Blanca** · December 8, 2011, 03:20 PM

Quote:

In your experience, how much over-travel do most precision shooters have (not just 1911s, all platforms. I know we are kinda focusing on 1911s right now)?

I regret that I can't answer this, for two reasons. First, I tinker only with 1911s (on a regular basis, although on occasion I'll venture to open up an old revolver). Second, I am not a precision shooter, I'm a combat shooter -- and only with 1911s. I don't think the minimal overtravel of any stock trigger is detrimental to combat accuracy or reliability, so the screws are just one more thing that can go wrong. I only know two precision shooters, and I've never asked them how much (or how little) overtravel they think is optimal.

C0untZer0 · December 9, 2011, 10:26 AM

My personal experience with over-travel on the stock Glock trigger showed me that it was pulling the gun to the right. I didn't have good follow-through on the sight-picture.

Part of it was the over-travel, part of it was the trigger pull itself.

I tried a lot of things to stop it

Putting more finger on the trigger - I moved my trigger finger everywhere from the tip to almost at the joint and it didn't stop it.

Strengthening my trigger finger - I used and still use Grip Master exercisers and Captains of Crus grippers to strengthen my fingers so I could apply a smooth pull to the trigger.

Experimented with changing my grip.

Did lots and lots and lots of dry-firing practice.

Finally I swapped out the stock Glock trigger with a good trigger kit and now my follow-through is good, the sight picture stays completely stable after the trigger breaks.

So anyway, no over-travel seems to work for me.

View Poll Results: How much over-travel
None (just enough to reliably fire the gun)	9	42.86%
Minimal	9	42.86%
Normal	2	9.52%
Other (Please explain )	1	4.76%
Voters: 21. You may not vote on this poll

December 7, 2011, 08:42 PM	#1
iMagUdspEllr Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2009 Posts: 477	Over-travel and accuracy I have read about trigger take-up (doesn't affect accuracy), creep (may affect accuracy?), and over-travel (some say a little is better and some say none is better). I read an article (talking about rifle triggers) that said over-travel is desirable because if you have no over-travel (or very little) then while the firing pin is igniting the primer your finger is "hitting" the over-travel stop and this causes the rifle to vibrate a little bit before the bullet has left the barrel (and thus slightly affecting accuracy). So that author advocated having a little more over-travel than many people seem to advocate, in order to ensure your finger is still in motion ("over-travelling") while the bullet leaves the barrel (eliminating the movement caused when your finger causes the trigger to hit the over-travel stop until after the bullet has left the barrel). I don't know if there is any truth to that... I'm just repeating what I read. That article triggered me to think about over-travel in handguns. I believe a good trigger is even more important in a handgun for accuracy because your firing hand also assists with supporting the weapon and pointing the weapon let alone pulling the trigger. It seems to me that you might want to have over-travel in a handgun for the same reason that author suggested having over-travel in a rifle. However, my opinion shifted as I began to think about it more. It seems, due to your strong hand not just being responsible for breaking the trigger but also supporting and aiming the gun, over-travel might be an undesirable thing as your hand sympathetically closes and squeezes all your fingers together in order to follow your index finger's lead (thus causing the gun to shift minutes of a degree off target as the hammer falls to ignite the primer). Then again, I don't see why the barrel wouldn't shift slightly off target due to your finger "hitting" the over-travel stop before the bullet has left the barrel. What are your opinions, experiences, and theories on the subject?

December 8, 2011, 09:00 AM	#6
pilpens Senior Member Join Date: April 24, 2008 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,696	OVER-TRAVEL: I have different setting on different guns. .22 pistols have minimal to none. 2 1911s have minimal -- adjusted so that when the trigger is at it's rearmost position, Hammer does not catch when it moves up/down. 1 1911 has a bit more than the other 1911s - does not seem to hurt. DA/SA revolvers have more (a lot more) over-travel than my 1911s. DA/SA pistols -- whatever the factory setting they came with. SA/DA revolver in SA mode - Some over-travel movement improved my groups compared to when I had some set to minimal over-travel. SA .22 pistols - setting does not seem to hurt accuracy but the trigger feels better with minimal over-travel than with no over-travel stop. 1911s - I like them with minimal over-travel but cannot tell if it hurts or helps accuracy. ======== TAKE-UP: does not seem to bother me much. ======== CREEP: 1 of my .22 Ruger MKII has an annoying noticeable smooth creep - causes me to pull my shot. 1 of my Kimber 1911 has a some smooth creep but not noticeable when shooting - no issue with accuracy. ======== Overall, I voted minimal over-travel. 1. I prefer minimal over-travel movement. 2. Over-travel movement does not seem to hurt my shooting. 3. Noticeable CREEP, I do not like. Last edited by pilpens; December 8, 2011 at 09:14 AM.

December 7, 2011, 08:48 PM	#2
Ruark Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2010 Posts: 227	In the crushing, overwhelming stress of a gunfight situation, you won't notice any characteristics of the trigger pull. The only thing that might matter is the overall length of the pull; a short, single action pull can be fired slightly faster than a longer double action pull. That's why Steel Challenge and IPSC shooters invariably use single action semiautos.

December 7, 2011, 09:16 PM	#3
iMagUdspEllr Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2009 Posts: 477	People don't always shoot guns in a gunfight And, sometimes people want to be as accurate as possible.

December 7, 2011, 11:13 PM	#4
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,534	I have a drawer full of overtravel screws from 1911 triggers I've installed. Unless you're a bullseye shooter you don't need it, and if it's there Bubba's sho 'nuff gonna try to adjust it, just because he can, and because Bubba sho 'nuff knows more about how a 1911 works than the people who build them. Wish I had a dollar for every time someone has complained about hammer follow, or sear problems, and then under questioning acknowledges that he turned the little screw in because that's what [__fill in name of expert friend/relative__] said was the way to adjust the trigger pull on a 1911.

December 8, 2011, 12:50 AM	#5
iMagUdspEllr Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2009 Posts: 477	@Aguila Blanca: Yeah that can be an issue with the 1911 platform. However, it really isn't fair to knock the ability to adjust the over-travel on a 1911 just because people are capable of doing it incorrectly (people are capable of screwing up anything). It might be a different story if someone could accidentally adjust the over-travel screw. They can't though. You actually have to decide to adjust it, break out the allen, and then go tinkering away. In your experience, how much over-travel do most precision shooters have (not just 1911s, all platforms. I know we are kinda focusing on 1911s right now)? Do most feel stock is fine, just a little bit is best, or almost no over-travel (without damaging their firearm)?

December 9, 2011, 10:26 AM	#8
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	My personal experience with over-travel on the stock Glock trigger showed me that it was pulling the gun to the right. I didn't have good follow-through on the sight-picture. Part of it was the over-travel, part of it was the trigger pull itself. I tried a lot of things to stop it Putting more finger on the trigger - I moved my trigger finger everywhere from the tip to almost at the joint and it didn't stop it. Strengthening my trigger finger - I used and still use Grip Master exercisers and Captains of Crus grippers to strengthen my fingers so I could apply a smooth pull to the trigger. Experimented with changing my grip. Did lots and lots and lots of dry-firing practice. Finally I swapped out the stock Glock trigger with a good trigger kit and now my follow-through is good, the sight picture stays completely stable after the trigger breaks. So anyway, no over-travel seems to work for me.