The world's WORST GPMG?

Abominable No-Man · December 5, 2001, 08:30 PM

I know that this subject is a bit off of the beaten path, but for all
those out there who have a bit of experience (or, even those
who read a lot, or, heck, anyone who wants to jump in...) what,
in your experience/opinion has been the WORST GPMG(or SAW
or medium MG- anything smaller than the .50 that is crew-served)
ever inventoried? I assume that I'm speaking to a mainly
American audience, but any foreign ex-military/police/etc. are
welcome to respond.

ANM

TaxPhd · December 6, 2001, 01:29 PM

Chauchet (sp).

chetchat · December 6, 2001, 03:07 PM

Oh yeah - from what I've heard the "chow-chow" is the worst. Here's a pic from the archives here :

See the curved magazine under the weapon? Those curved "grooves" along it's flank are actually open to the elements - water, dirt, mud, etc. Yeccch

Jeff White · December 6, 2001, 04:20 PM

....the M60. A cobbled together design combining features of many other GPMGs. The US Army would have been better served if we had just copied the MG42, which is what we wanted when we set out to develop the M60.

Jeff

swampgator · December 6, 2001, 05:28 PM

you forgot to add that they took the worst parts of the other MGs.

Personally I didn't mind mine too much, considering I only carried it to the field and shot live ammo twice yearly. Cleaning after heavy MILES use was a bitch though.

Derek Zeanah · December 6, 2001, 09:49 PM

Dude, I loved the M60 -- I could disassemble/reassemble faster than anyone else in the btn way under time (wasn't EIB time 2 minutes?). Great cadence too thuck-thuck-thuck-thuck-thuck...

Yeah, they jammed, and I saw lots of melted barrels, and they were a pain to clear under stress (don't let the bolt go forward before closing the feed tray!), but you've gotta love those things.

I liked 'em way better than the Ma-Deuces -- just good chemistry.

Hell -- I'll vote for the M-2 'cause I could never reassemble them correctly!

Oh yeah -- when the barrels got really hot during night-fire you could see the rounds going through the barrel with PVS-&'s. Can't beat that.

swampgator · December 7, 2001, 03:46 AM

Melted barrels, throat erosion, clogged gas system. All in one day (ha!). The M-60 was a serviceable GPMG, however, considering what they replaced with it (Browning 30 cals) they could have designed a better system.
About field stripping, yeah it was easy! Had a guy in our company who would do it blind folded. Took about 30 seconds longer than it would normally, something like 2:30-2:45. Bn CSM (a notorious hard ass, as they all should be!) caught him doing once in a tent during a warfighter. Next thing you knew it was a Bn CTT station.

T.Stahl · December 7, 2001, 03:57 AM

Now that you mention the M60, could someone please explain the procedure necessary to change the barrel and give a rough time estimate?

To answer the initial question:
"Any GPMG that has not been derived from the MG42."

BigG · December 7, 2001, 09:58 AM

I think the Chauchat was a squad automatic weapon not a GPMG. The GPMG is crew served, i.e., two or three guys, like the M60.

Jeff White · December 7, 2001, 12:57 PM

..it's one of the features that does work well. Clear the weapon, lock the bolt is to the rear, grab the release (in front of the receiver at the rear of the handguard) push it from left to right and flip the lever on the right side up. Using the asbestos mit, or grabbing the bipod legs if you don't have one, pull the barrel forward and set it aside. Grab the new barrel and insert it, then flip the lever down. The whole thing can be done in seconds. Of course if the AG installed the gas piston backwords in the other barrel, you've now got a 23 pound bolt action rifle instead of a machine gun. Just another design flaw. Weapons designed for use by GIs should be as fool proof as possible. It wouldn't have taken much, a keyway or some other modification to either the gas piston or the gas cylinder to make it impossible to put this in backwards, but it has been a common cause of malfuntions since the weapon entered service.

Jeff

TaxPhd · December 7, 2001, 01:32 PM

OK, BIgG, you got me on SAW vs. GPMG (although the original post did include SAW's

). The Chauchat was just a POS. Much worse than the Browning 1917 and 1919's.

BigG · December 7, 2001, 02:39 PM

You got that right, pardner! Chauchat is plain doo-doo.

I responded to the title GPMG failing to note the expanded definition in the text of the msg.

Tamara · December 8, 2001, 10:18 AM

...using the classic definition of "GPMG" (A weapon that can be fired from bipod or tripod, is belt-fed and usually equipped with the ability to change barrels rapidly so that it may be used as a light squad-level machinegun as well as in a sustained-fire MMG/HMG role), I'd have to say that the postwar French AA 52 is one of the worst.

Possibly the only military with a worse "not-invented-here" syndrome than the US, the French decided to go with a homebrewed cartridge (7.5mm French) and instead of licensing production of the Belgian FN MAG or the German MG-3 like nearly everyone else in NATO, they designed a machinegun with the rather unique capability of extracting most of the cartridge case while leaving the neck in the chamber. Needless to say, this is less than conducive to proper functioning. About the only good thing to be said about it was that it was only slightly heavier than its competition, and therefore made a better boat anchor or club after it jammed.

Stephen Ewing · December 9, 2001, 02:29 AM

Tamara, wasn't that the one that the troops had to lube the cases to ensure proper extraction......and also ensure that each case picked up as much crap as possible, thus creating more stoppages?

The more I look at it, the more I think the MAG is the only decent gun that isn't simply a MG-42 clone.

Steve

T.Stahl · December 11, 2001, 07:25 PM

Well, changing the barrel on the M60 sounds easier than I thought.
With the MG42/MG3 you lock the bolt to the rear, push the safety on, open the barrel-change-flap on the right side of the receiver, extract the hot barrel, insert new one, close the flap, push safety off. Takes ten seconds, max.

December 5, 2001, 08:30 PM	#1
Abominable No-Man Senior Member Join Date: August 15, 2001 Location: Over here. Posts: 246	The world's WORST GPMG? I know that this subject is a bit off of the beaten path, but for all those out there who have a bit of experience (or, even those who read a lot, or, heck, anyone who wants to jump in...) what, in your experience/opinion has been the WORST GPMG(or SAW or medium MG- anything smaller than the .50 that is crew-served) ever inventoried? I assume that I'm speaking to a mainly American audience, but any foreign ex-military/police/etc. are welcome to respond. ANM

December 6, 2001, 04:20 PM	#4
Jeff White Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1998 Location: Kinmundy, IL, USA Posts: 1,397	I'd have to say the worst ever to see wide use was.... ....the M60. A cobbled together design combining features of many other GPMGs. The US Army would have been better served if we had just copied the MG42, which is what we wanted when we set out to develop the M60. Jeff

December 6, 2001, 05:28 PM	#5
swampgator Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 1999 Location: Gatorville, Florida Posts: 619	Jeff you forgot to add that they took the worst parts of the other MGs. Personally I didn't mind mine too much, considering I only carried it to the field and shot live ammo twice yearly. Cleaning after heavy MILES use was a bitch though.

December 7, 2001, 03:46 AM	#7
swampgator Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 1999 Location: Gatorville, Florida Posts: 619	M-60 problems.... Melted barrels, throat erosion, clogged gas system. All in one day (ha!). The M-60 was a serviceable GPMG, however, considering what they replaced with it (Browning 30 cals) they could have designed a better system. About field stripping, yeah it was easy! Had a guy in our company who would do it blind folded. Took about 30 seconds longer than it would normally, something like 2:30-2:45. Bn CSM (a notorious hard ass, as they all should be!) caught him doing once in a tent during a warfighter. Next thing you knew it was a Bn CTT station.

December 7, 2001, 12:57 PM	#10
Jeff White Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1998 Location: Kinmundy, IL, USA Posts: 1,397	The barrel on the M60 is easy to change.... ..it's one of the features that does work well. Clear the weapon, lock the bolt is to the rear, grab the release (in front of the receiver at the rear of the handguard) push it from left to right and flip the lever on the right side up. Using the asbestos mit, or grabbing the bipod legs if you don't have one, pull the barrel forward and set it aside. Grab the new barrel and insert it, then flip the lever down. The whole thing can be done in seconds. Of course if the AG installed the gas piston backwords in the other barrel, you've now got a 23 pound bolt action rifle instead of a machine gun. Just another design flaw. Weapons designed for use by GIs should be as fool proof as possible. It wouldn't have taken much, a keyway or some other modification to either the gas piston or the gas cylinder to make it impossible to put this in backwards, but it has been a common cause of malfuntions since the weapon entered service. Jeff

December 6, 2001, 01:29 PM	#2
TaxPhd Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 534	Chauchet (sp).

December 6, 2001, 03:07 PM	#3
chetchat Member Join Date: November 6, 1999 Location: Miami, FL USA Posts: 73	Oh yeah - from what I've heard the "chow-chow" is the worst. Here's a pic from the archives here : See the curved magazine under the weapon? Those curved "grooves" along it's flank are actually open to the elements - water, dirt, mud, etc. Yeccch

December 6, 2001, 09:49 PM	#6
Derek Zeanah Senior Member Join Date: March 30, 2000 Location: South GA Posts: 267	Dude, I loved the M60 -- I could disassemble/reassemble faster than anyone else in the btn way under time (wasn't EIB time 2 minutes?). Great cadence too thuck-thuck-thuck-thuck-thuck... Yeah, they jammed, and I saw lots of melted barrels, and they were a pain to clear under stress (don't let the bolt go forward before closing the feed tray!), but you've gotta love those things. I liked 'em way better than the Ma-Deuces -- just good chemistry. Hell -- I'll vote for the M-2 'cause I could never reassemble them correctly! Oh yeah -- when the barrels got really hot during night-fire you could see the rounds going through the barrel with PVS-&'s. Can't beat that.

December 7, 2001, 03:57 AM	#8
T.Stahl Senior Member Join Date: November 1, 2001 Location: near Stuttgart/Germany Posts: 376	Now that you mention the M60, could someone please explain the procedure necessary to change the barrel and give a rough time estimate? To answer the initial question: "Any GPMG that has not been derived from the MG42."

December 7, 2001, 09:58 AM	#9
BigG Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 1999 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 4,334	I think the Chauchat was a squad automatic weapon not a GPMG. The GPMG is crew served, i.e., two or three guys, like the M60.

December 7, 2001, 01:32 PM	#11
TaxPhd Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 534	OK, BIgG, you got me on SAW vs. GPMG (although the original post did include SAW's ). The Chauchat was just a POS. Much worse than the Browning 1917 and 1919's.

December 7, 2001, 02:39 PM	#12
BigG Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 1999 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 4,334	You got that right, pardner! Chauchat is plain doo-doo. I responded to the title GPMG failing to note the expanded definition in the text of the msg.

December 8, 2001, 10:18 AM	#13
Tamara Moderator Emeritus Join Date: March 11, 2000 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 16,002	Well... ...using the classic definition of "GPMG" (A weapon that can be fired from bipod or tripod, is belt-fed and usually equipped with the ability to change barrels rapidly so that it may be used as a light squad-level machinegun as well as in a sustained-fire MMG/HMG role), I'd have to say that the postwar French AA 52 is one of the worst. Possibly the only military with a worse "not-invented-here" syndrome than the US, the French decided to go with a homebrewed cartridge (7.5mm French) and instead of licensing production of the Belgian FN MAG or the German MG-3 like nearly everyone else in NATO, they designed a machinegun with the rather unique capability of extracting most of the cartridge case while leaving the neck in the chamber. Needless to say, this is less than conducive to proper functioning. About the only good thing to be said about it was that it was only slightly heavier than its competition, and therefore made a better boat anchor or club after it jammed. __________________ MOLON LABE! 2% Unobtainium, 98% Hypetanium. The Arms Room: An Online Museum.

December 9, 2001, 02:29 AM	#14
Stephen Ewing Senior Member Join Date: February 26, 2000 Posts: 329	Tamara, wasn't that the one that the troops had to lube the cases to ensure proper extraction......and also ensure that each case picked up as much crap as possible, thus creating more stoppages? The more I look at it, the more I think the MAG is the only decent gun that isn't simply a MG-42 clone. Steve

December 11, 2001, 07:25 PM	#15
T.Stahl Senior Member Join Date: November 1, 2001 Location: near Stuttgart/Germany Posts: 376	Well, changing the barrel on the M60 sounds easier than I thought. With the MG42/MG3 you lock the bolt to the rear, push the safety on, open the barrel-change-flap on the right side of the receiver, extract the hot barrel, insert new one, close the flap, push safety off. Takes ten seconds, max.