For 444 Marlin Fans (the cartridge)

[44caliberkid]

https://www.budsgunshop.com/product_...bgscredova2023

Not a lot of choices around for 444 fans, so here’s Rossi’s 336 clone. I don’t own one, but have heard good things about great accuracy in the 30-30 version.

[FrankenMauser]

Interesting.
I wonder if they took Marlin's experience into consideration when coming up with this idea.
Marlin's R&D guys considered recoil to be too punishing, and muzzle flip too much, with a 16-18" barrel. That is why the only short Model 444 was 18.5" with a ported barrel. The "Outfitter"/444P had, effectively, a 16.5" barrel, but needed the 18.5" length to accommodate the porting.

[taylorce1]

Well, it looks like the Rossi is threaded for a muzzle brake or suppressor use. So you have two options to control muzzle flip.

Here is a really unique .444 Marlin. The muzzle jump looks controlable on it.

[FrankenMauser]

Semi-auto tends to help with that.

[zeke]

The 444 outfitter is the most accurate lever owned, and a decelerator (if memory serves) butt pad made the recoil manageable. Plus those high velocity 180 gn jhps did a number on the pumpkins.

[bluetopper]

Rossi is making a 20” walnut lever action also that looks very nice.

I have a 25” CVA single shot 444 that I put a laminated Boyd's stock on that drills holes.

I'm hoping Ruger/Marlin will make a run of 444's.

[bamaranger]

I've always been intrigued with the .444 cartridge. I suppose the fact that it could use .429 slugs, just like a .44 mag handgun was one reason. Another reason is that there is just something about a big bore lever rifle. I always intended to buy one of the Marlins, but when the opportunity came, my money was going elsewhere.

One criticism of the .444 early on was that there were no suitable bullets. Commercially, the 240 gr projectiles were as heavy as it got. Hornady introduced the 265 gr, and Sierra followed with the 300 and things got interesting with the .444. Most .44 carbine would not shoot the heavy bullets well at all.......at least mine didn't.

I handled one of the Rossi/336 clones the other day, it was chambered in 45-70. Seemed like a solid no nonsense rifle. The version I saw was half magazine with I believe a 20" bbl. In any event, the mag did not go all the way to the muzzle.

[bluetopper]

The problem with the older 444's is that the 1:38 twist rate was not fast enough for heavy bullets. I think pretty much all manufacturers have gone to the 1:20 twist rate.

[bamaranger]

I was not aware the big .444 used 1-38". Common enough in the early .44's though. Ruger went 1-20" with the 96 & 99 carbines, which aligns better with the twist rates in .44 handguns. The new Ruglin is 1-20" as well.

A .444 with 1-20" and a 300 gr slug sounds like serious medicine.

[FrankenMauser]

I am a big .444 Marlin fan, have owned many, and still own three.

Just to clear some misconceptions:
1. The cartridge was standardized with a .430" bullet and groove diameter. Bullets of .429" diameter don't work well. If jacketed, performance is not great on target. If cast, they lead the bore horrendously and performance is not great on target. In practice, you really need to use a .4315" or .432" bullet if using cast. Hornady was the biggest supporter of the cartridge for a very long time; that is why the 265 gr FP was .430". It may have had two cannelures for .44 Mag and .444 Marlin, but it was designed for the latter.

2. The 1:38" twist is terrible. Absolutely terrible. This is a carry-over from .44 caliber revolvers, .44-40, and Marlin toying with .44 Rem Mag (The short-lived Model 44-336) - but mostly .44-40. It was never reasonable for .444 Marlin, but Marlin did not want to change tooling.

3. The 1:20" twist is terrible. Absolutely terrible. This was a knee-jerk reaction to people complaining about the 1:38" twist, and changing over to the easiest thing they had tooling for: .45-70. It was never reasonable for .444 Marlin, but Marlin did not want to change tooling. (Am I repeating myself? I feel like I am repeating myself.) The twist rate is too fast for "standard" bullets, and even the usual 'heavy' bullets. It needs to be a bit slower.

4. Other companies chose twist rates for .444 Marlin between 1:24" and 1:36".
If you do the math, the 24-32" are much more reasonable.
In my personal opinion, .444 Marlin should have a twist rate of 1:28" to cover everything from 240 gr to 400 gr. But, I am just some idiot on the internet that has a bunch of rifles, has multiple twist rates, has used some twist calculators, and has used .444 Marlin to test bullets from 180 gr to 437 gr...
What would I know?...

[Pumpkin]

Back in the 80’s my brother in law and I bought a couple of new 444’s for hog hunting.

If I remember correctly the factory (there were only two) loaded Remington 240 had 2 cannelures and the 265 was the great Hornady Interlock bullet.

I used to like to section bullets to see what was going on inside. The 265 did indeed have a Interlock ring with a nice tapered jacket.
The 300 gr Sierra was a disappointment, it had a thin un-tapered jacket and as I recall the cannelure was in the wrong place. I didn’t waste my time with it.

I shot some big (300-400) lb boars with both the factory 240 and 265 and never recovered a 265. My 265 hand loads performed identically to the factory stuff but those 240 would always come apart. It was very common to find a bit of bullet material in your supper.
I did work up some loads with the Barnes 300 HP, they did okay on the target but I never had the opportunity to bag a hog with one. They were too expensive for a young married mechanic anyway.
My 444 is one I wish I would have kept, story of my life back then.

[stagpanther]

I have two rossi's from the braztec days and really they were over-priced toss-of-dice good luck getting them to shoot right propositions. I know these newer ones are made in a new factory in GA--but I'm still gun-shy about investing in one. The old models had terrible magazine tube retention systems with stupid retention pins in the barrel bands--I even once had the magazine tube part company with the rifle and go downrange chasing after the bullet! I'd love for a experienced rossi person with personal ownership knowledge of the older and newer rifles to assure me that they worked that crap out on the new model ones.

[FrankenMauser]

If I remember correctly the factory (there were only two) loaded Remington 240 had 2 cannelures and the 265 was the great Hornady Interlock bullet.

The Remington 240 gr SP (.429" diameter) typically only had one cannelure. It was the supposed to be the same jacket, but a slightly harder lead core, compared to the "same" bullet used in .44 Mag. But I have never seen anyone test the claim.

The Hornady 265 FP Interlock (.430" diameter) was *supposed* to have two cannelures - one each for .444 Marlin and .44 Rem Mag - but it sometimes shipped with only one or the other, or one or both in the wrong place, over the final 10 years of production.
(Somewhere around here, I have a box of 265 FPs with only one cannelure which is about 1/8" from the base of the bullet. Talk about getting it *really* wrong!)

[ocharry]

i have an old Marlin...think i got it new in 73..i think...gave around 100 bucks for it then.. i think..been a minute..lol...it has a old red field tv screen 2-7 i believe... put it on new on a leupold base in red field steel rings

funny story and i will shut my pie hole...lol

some where around 1974-75 a couple buddies and i were at the rifle range getting ready for an elk hunt in colorado...i had my trusty 444 with me that day and a fella at the range was going on about how he had developed this new and awsome bullet proof glass ...he was just going on and on...he said how he had shot it with a variaty of pistol and a few bigger rifles and there was hardly any damage at all...one of my buddies asked if his friend could shoot it with his rifle...at first the guy said no..so we went on shooting and he came over and asked what we had...and what we wanted to shoot his super glass with...my buddy says "oh he has a 44 rifle and it would be intersting to see what a real rifle could do with his super glass"...the guy puffed out his chest and said "sure why not"..

so he takes it down to the 50yrd line sets it up and comes back...(now we had been shooting at 100)...and says..."think you can hit that in the center"...(me)"pretty sure i can at this range"...so i stuffed a round in the side of the ol Marlin and let one loose....my loads...hornady 265gr over a nice load of imr4198...lol...im laffin here because i know whats coming

so when that big ol 265gr bullet hit the super glass it looked like some one threw a ice cube on the cement floor....there was stuff going everwhere....lmao...big pieces....i looked over at the guy and i can still see his mouth gaped open...like i just slapped the stuff out of him....i said "well i guess i hit it"...he looked at me like he could carve my liver....lol

any way we shut the line down and he went down to collect what was left...came back to the bench and pieced all the big pieces back together

IIRC this super glass was about 1.5-2" thick and it was about 18" square...and now it had a 3" hole blasted throught the center of it...lmao

the guy ask me what kind of rifle i had...just and old Marlin in 444

i had to tell that one to you 444 fans...i still have the old girl and she has a lot of blood on her hands

sorry for the long read...i will listen now...lol

[Pumpkin]

I believe Hornady lists the 265 as discontinued, that’s a shame because I would like to try some in my 77/44, if one of the cannelures were in the right place.
An 1/8” from the bottom cannelure sounds like a Monday morning still hungover or I picked the wrong day to stop drinking coffee batch to me.

Edit: Great story!!

[FrankenMauser]

Hornady lists everything as "discontinued" if it is not currently on the production schedule.
Just wait for them to run some Superformance 265 FP ammo again, and the bullets should be available at about the same time. ...Should.

[stagpanther]

Hope you're right--but I kinda doubt it--it's been years since I've last seen them available.

[zeke]

With the ballard rifling and 1::20 in twist in the outfitter, got excellent accuracy with handloaded Rem 240's, Nosler 250 partitions and Nosler 240 soft points. Never got the same accuracy with speer 270s or Hdy 265's. H322, H4198 and VV120 powders were used.

Pumpkin busters were Hdy 180 xtps over 55.0 gns aa-1680 for mid 2700 fps range and very accurate. Didn't need the heavier bullets as have a 45-70.

[bamaranger]

The info on the bullet diameters is very interesting. Am I mistaken in believing that the .444 was first introduced with 240 gr bullet by Remington? Further, is what is being stated is that the initial Rem bullets (240) were .429 but standardized bullet dia was to be .430? So the initial 240 gr Rem bullets were undersized and Hornady was the first to introduce a proper sized bullet (more than just a few years later) with the 265/.430?

Not saying it isn't so......but why the heck would you do that? Wwhy wouldn't the bullet grove dia be .429 so as to utilize common .44 mag bullets?

I'm now another internet idiot.....who has never owned a .444, but is really confused as to the mindset of those that introduced the rifle/cartridge combo.

[stagpanther]

I have a scout break-open in 444marlin with 1:20 twist also. My experience has been the opposite in regards to bullet size/weights; my results with 265 ftxs (I used to use the interlocs of which I think I still have a few "secret stash" remaining) using H4198 beat all the lighter weight combinations I've tried. Maybe I haven't tried enough of the smaller combos.

[Pumpkin]

Rem was the only game in town for a long time.
I found an old Gun Digest that had a write up on the “new” 265sp that Rem introduced using the bullet made by Hornady.
This was/is a great bullet, for me it met all my requirements. I used it in 44Mags too.

Edit: As luck would have it’s a.430” dia. bullet. Something I honestly never gave much thought to.

[FrankenMauser]

Not saying it isn't so......but why the heck would you do that? Wwhy wouldn't the bullet grove dia be .429 so as to utilize common .44 mag bullets?

I'm now another internet idiot.....who has never owned a .444, but is really confused as to the mindset of those that introduced the rifle/cartridge combo.

You'll have to go back in time and talk to the guys at Marlin in 1964 and 1965 for the answer. I don't know.
They spec'd the groove diameter as .430"+0.002 with a twist of 1:38".

So, they "saved" on tooling by sticking with 1:38", but still had to have special rifling buttons for the .430" groove diameter.

I've seen many people theorize that it was to prevent pressure spikes, but I am not sold on that one.

[JohnKSa]

When they initially did the spec, they were going to have to make a special button for it anyway because Marlin was using microgroove rifling at the time. So saving on tooling wasn't a consideration.

My guess is that the unusual spec likely had something to do with a peculiarity of the microgroove rifling.

Correction:
Marlin would have had the tooling for the twist rate and the rifling button since they had made a brief run of the 336 in .44 Mag prior to developing the .444 Marlin.

[bamaranger]

Well, we can't go back in time but we can look at the recent past.....no wonder they went out of business.

[FrankenMauser]

So saving on tooling wasn't a consideration.

Twist rate.