Hotter loads in COLT SAA ?

[Lavan]

FIRST, I don't want to do it.
The 45 Colt does everything I would want.

But.....just curioius.

The Colt ...NEW FRONTIER...SAA "looks" very Ruger-ish in frame size.



So my question is: has anyone tried hotter loads in the NEW FRONTIER model?

My...guess.. is that the limiting factor would be the cylinder construction.

Anyhow..

[44 AMP]

Define "hotter" and then perhaps someone can answer the question.

My 1970 Lyman book lists a couple loads with the 250gr bullet that go over 1,000fps, tested from a 5.5" Colt SAA.

They are max loads.

the new Frontier should handle that level load, which IS "hotter" than standard factory loads.

So, define what you mean by "hotter". If you mean a 250gr @ 1000-1100fps range, which is hotter than factory standard, your Colt will probably take it, and if your barrel is long enough deliver those velocities.

BUT, if you are talking about "hotter" meaning above 1100 fps, then I would say you are straining the Colt, and if you're trying for loads in the 1200+ range, you are dangerously stressing the Colt.

Elmer "blew up" at least a couple .45 Colt SAA's during his work developing what became the .44 magnum. His original intent was for a .45 magnum, but the guns he could get (Colt SAA) just couldn't take what he wanted to use. So, he dropped "down" to the .44 Special (and in the same guns) and found out that the thicker cylinder walls of the slightly smaller bore round were enough to contain his desired heavy load, and that load became the .44 Magnum.

IF a gun like the new model Ruger Blackhawk .45 had existed back then, we might have a .45 Magnum instead of a .44 Magnum, today.

The Colt SAA will handle loads slightly hotter than standard factory .45 Colt. But not a lot more. If you want .44Mag level performance get a different gun.

[rclark]

Remember the cylinder is the 'same' size as any Colt - Colt .45 Revolver. The cylinder is what has to handle the pressure. So even though the frame is 'squared off' for adjustable sights, that is of no consequence for loading up the .45 Colt. Yes, the cylinder steel is probably better than in Elmer's day, but .... you still should 'stick' with normal .45 Colt loads with the Frontier.

[HiBC]

Something to think about...(Yes,its apples vs oranges) The S+W 29 is the Dirty Harry 44 Magnum "N: frame. The Model 25 is the 45 Colt version of the "N" frame,

From memory, I'm pretty sure I read in some magazine article the thickness of the steel at the thinnest part of the cylinder bolt cut for a S+W 45 Colt cylinder is (as I recall) something just under .020 inch. ,016 I'm pretty sure.

Percentage wise, the extra .010 the .44 offers is significant.

Ross Seifred pushed the 45 Colt a bit in a Ruger Super Blackhawk single
action.
Then he took it to Africa and whacked a Cape Buffalo. Maybe poke around in some archive "Handloader" mag articles by Ross. Still,thats a Ruger,not a Colt.

[44 AMP]

re; the S&W 29 and 25, I believe that besides the small difference in the steel thickness there is also a difference in the heat treating of the cylinders.

Did some checking, the magnum guns may or may not have a different alloy cylinder (depending on the gun/era of manufacture) but they DO all use a different heat treat process than the non magnum guns.

They are tested to higher proof pressure levels as well. SO, while a Model 25 and 29 are the same size (other than the .44/.45 size difference) the magnum gun is heat treated differently than the non magnum to produce a stronger gun.

Model 25s are considered fine for standard .45 Colt loads but not for the hotter loads approaching magnum specs.

There's a reason back in the day they called the hotter .45 colt loads "Ruger ONLY".

[Lavan]

I am happy with factory 45 Colt loads.
The question was academic for curiosity's sake.

[Armybrat]

I’ll just add that your New Frontier is a really nice looking wheel gun.

[Aguila Blanca]

I don't think the New Frontier is any larger in frame or cylinder dimensions than a standard Colt SAA. What makes it appear more "Ruger-ish" is the squared-off top strap, which was made that way to accept the adjustable rear sight. I don't think the gun itself is any more robust than any other Colt SAA.

[GeauxTide]

As Aquila Blanc aptly stated, the frame and cylinder are the same. Stick with your first thought, Don't do it. Brian Pearce has done extensive work on this subject. He came up with 3 Tiers to handle every manufacturer. My Tier 2 Loads in my Blackhawks throw 285 SWC Hard Cast bullets at 1050fps. It blows through animals, from any angle, to 40 yards. Fist sized exits, too.

[Webleymkv]

In looking at both the Alliant and Hodgdon website, there are a few .45 Long Colt loadings in their standard pressure sections which can drive a 250 gr bullet 900-1000 fps, that's about the top end I think I'd want to go in a Colt or SAA clone. Honestly, a 250 gr bullet at 900-1000 fps is pretty useful, more so than a lot of people would give it credit for.

[Hawg]

The Ruger New Vaquero won't handle hot loads either.

[44 AMP]

Honestly, a 250 gr bullet at 900-1000 fps is pretty useful, more so than a lot of people would give it credit for.

ABSOLUTELY!!

I run Rugers, and had my time of magnum level loads, but settled on one load about 30 some odd years ago, 10.0gr Unique under a 250gr SWC. Out of MY 7.5" Blackhawk it clocks an avg of 1070fps, and it does everything I want from a .45 Colt, while still being pleasant to shoot.

its a max load to shoot from a Colt SAA (OR the New Vaquero which is "colt class" for pressures) but it is safe and usable in those guns if you want to.

When / IF I need more than that, I haul out a .44 Magnum.

[Webleymkv]

Originally posted by 44 AMP

Quote:
Honestly, a 250 gr bullet at 900-1000 fps is pretty useful, more so than a lot of people would give it credit for.
ABSOLUTELY!!

I run Rugers, and had my time of magnum level loads, but settled on one load about 30 some odd years ago, 10.0gr Unique under a 250gr SWC. Out of MY 7.5" Blackhawk it clocks an avg of 1070fps, and it does everything I want from a .45 Colt, while still being pleasant to shoot.

its a max load to shoot from a Colt SAA (OR the New Vaquero which is "colt class" for pressures) but it is safe and usable in those guns if you want to.

When / IF I need more than that, I haul out a .44 Magnum.

That's pretty much what I've settled on too except with .44 Special rather than .45 LC. In my Ruger Flattop Blackhawk (which also uses the smaller Colt-ish frame) I've settled on the "Skeeter Skelton Load" of 7.5 gr Unique behind a 250 gr Keith SWC (Lyman 429421) which, last time I chronographed it, was running about the same velocity as your .45 LC loads from my gun's 5.5" barrel. It's accurate and plenty powerful but not unpleasant or fatiguing to shoot. I could probably go a bit hotter, but If I need more I'll use my S&W 629 with my pet load of the same bullet over 20 gr of 2400

[stinkeypete]

44Amp said it for me. Don't talk about over-standard .45 Colt loads online.

Here is why I used to do it:

About 25 years or so ago Ruger's Blackhawk came in .44 Magnum and .45 Colt.
The difference in case diameter is about .023 inches. That means the cylinder wall from the chamber was 0.0115 inch different. One one hundredth of an inch, same steel, same factory, same heat treatment. The engineering was simple and worked out in practice.

The Blackhawk was a heck of a bargain back then. Maybe it still is. Having become a Ruger fanboy, I think it's what everyone should own. There was only one size of Ruger unfluted .45 cylinder and frame. There was no confusion- Ruger or Contender Only went in your Ruger or Contender. That was then.

But now there are lots of Ruger .45 Single Actions, and you can easily make a big mistake They are not all the old maximum strength revolvers. This is now.

Now? Now if you want to shoot big, Ruger makes a nice 5 shot blackhawk that is called a .454. You can shoot your .45 colt in that and never worry. Heck, a smart man would load in .454 Casull cases and there would be no worry about someone loading the wrong bullet in the wrong gun, which was a big concern in the old days.

All the cool kids were doing it, back then. I got sucked in. I had fun. I am a very organized and careful person with only one shooter in the household. I wanted to know more about hand cannons and got a Freedom Arms .454 Casull and .454 Casull Carbine. I learned about hand cannon recoil and smelling blood in my sinuses from that light carbine!

It was fun and if anyone wants to see how big they can go, I encourage it. You'll learn a lot!

Now? Now I shoot .44 Special loads in .44 Magnum cases in the .44 Magnum Blackhawk my dad gave to me, the one he had Hamilton Bowen customize. My dad passed last October, and I miss him terribly.

If I want to go hard, I can go hard- but pick up a proper hand cannon to do it with. But I don't, these days. Mostly, I like shooting my Single Six in .32 H&R, loaded to 'hot' 32 special loads. I feel I moved sideways from big... to enjoyable to shoot.

A real Colt made Colt? Don't even think of beating that thing up. Too pretty.

[Jim Watson]

Brian Pearce did a lot of work on heavy loads. His rationale was that you can get a SAA - at one time even from Colt - with a .45 ACP cylinder for its higher chamber pressure. So why not load .45 LC to .45 ACP pressure, getting more velocity and heavier bullet out of the bigger case.

Unfortunately, I can no longer find his article free on the www, you have to have the right back number of Handloader or Rifle magazine.

[gwpercle]

Pick up a copy of the book "Sixguns" by Elmer Keith ... He started working with hot and heavy loads in the Colt SAA 45 Colt . You will see a couple cylinders blown with damaged top straps . After this he moved to the hot loads in the 44 Special pn the Colt SAA ... just enough additional steel in cylinders to better hold his hot loads .
If things had progressed as Elmer wanted them ... the 45 Colt would have become the 45 Magnum ... but there wasn't enough steel around the cylinder so he abandoned the 45 Colt ... started working with the 44 Special and it evolved into the 44 Magnum .

The Colt SAA may look like a Ruger ... but it ain't baby ... the Ruger Blackhawk is beefier and can take heavier loads .
In 1967 I got a new Speer #8 Loading Manual and a Ruger Blackhawk 357 magnum and I believed Speer knew what they were publishing ... we put together some Blue Screamers back them ...lucky for me the Blackhawk took em all in stride ...
Bill Ruger built this one Tough ... I'm still shooting it too !
Gary

[603Country]

You have to be careful with the hot loads. My neighbor has a repro SAA in 45 Colt. He doesn’t reload, so had no idea what was Ok or not Ok, and a buddy gave him some factory loads with 300+ grain lead bullets at a high velocity. They would have blown his hand off. He brought the gun over to shoot on my range and I saw what he had. I pulled the bullets and loaded them with more fitting bullets at SAA velocities.

He could have been killed. If he hadn’t come over to my place, his ‘buddy’ would have been responsible. And his buddy claims to be knowledgeable.

[GJeffB]

603 , I have the obvious question:

a buddy gave him some factory loads with 300+ grain lead bullets at a high velocity

WTH were factory loads that would blown his hands off??

-jb, so I know what to stay away from

[44 AMP]

a buddy gave him some factory loads with 300+ grain lead bullets at a high velocity. They would have blown his hand off. He brought the gun over to shoot on my range and I saw what he had. I pulled the bullets and loaded them with more fitting bullets at SAA velocities.

So, the obvious question is "WHAT FACTORY" loaded them???

Buffalo Bore?? Garrett?? someone else? someone we've never heard of??? is it possible the buddy supplied someone handloads THINKING they were factory ammo? You really should include as much information as possible when you make a statement like this. What headstamp on the cases?? What did it say on the box they were in, things like that matter.

Buffalo Bore makes heavy loads, its what they do, AND they are VERY SPECIFIC about what guns their ammo has been tested in and found safe, and that it should not be used in anything else.

since you saw what it was, and pulled the bullets reloading it to something safe in his gun, what was the ammo???

[mehavey]

Originally Posted by Stinkypete

About 25 years or so ago Ruger's Blackhawk came in .44 Magnum and .45 Colt.....

50-Year old Ruger/45-Colt/3-Screw
Where's that rate on the "Ruger-Only scale?

[Jim Watson]

No. 1

[603Country]

Guys, I do not remember what specific ammo it was, but it was suitable only for the strongest revolver actions, not for a SAA reproduction. I think it was a combination of what was on the box as to bullet weight and velocity that caught my eye. Far above what would be suitable for his gun. There was a good chance that the loads would have wrecked his revolver and possibly his hand, or worse.

I could not let him shoot those loads.

No insult intended, but if you need me to tell you what loads should not be fired in a SAA revolver, be very careful in the future.

My buddy had never fired the revolver and had no idea what was or was not safe in the gun. He got the factory loads from a long time friend that is an FFL dealer, so he had no reason to be not trusting of the rounds.

So, you guys ease up on giving me grief. All I did was try to protect my friend, and I was absolutely correct in my assessment and actions. It did not occur to me to have to tell a bunch of seemingly knowledgeable gun folk like you what might hurt you.

[603Country]

I called my buddy, and he still had the box the ammo came in. It was Buffalo Bore, with a 325 gr bullet at 1325 fps. That’s what caught my eye. Would you shoot that in a SAA revolver?

[HiBC]

Some folks would jump to conclusions and get all excited about a (gasp) 300 grain load.
They do not understand a 300 grain load with a proper powder charge will be just as safe as a 200 grain load in a SAA. Look in your load manual,choose the correct burn rate powder and recommended safe charge.

If the page,or chart,says "Ruger Only",believe it.

Boutique,special purpose ammo from outfits like Buffalo Bore is loaded to a variety of performance levels. Many of their loads are SAAMI spec for all guns,

I'm not checking the catalogue, but Buffalo Bore might very well sell a 300gr 45 Colt load suitable for a Colt SAA.
And Buffalo Bore sells "Ruger Only" loads,too.

The specifics matter,

I called my buddy, and he still had the box the ammo came in. It was Buffalo Bore, with a 325 gr bullet at 1325 fps. That’s what caught my eye. Would you shoot that in a SAA revolver?

No,I would not. It was a good call. But the 1325 fps mattered as much as the 325 gr. It could have been "850 fps for all moden firearms" with a 325gr bullet.

[rclark]

I called my buddy, and he still had the box the ammo came in. It was Buffalo Bore, with a 325 gr bullet at 1325 fps. That’s what caught my eye. Would you shoot that in a SAA revolver?

No, I would not. That is definitely a ROL.