ejector swipes, primers normal?

[Shadow9mm]

Hey, So I worked up some 223 loads the other day with CFE223 and CCI standard small rifle primers. I ran up to the max of 27.4g per the hornady manual. 16" barrel, mid length gas. 5.56 chamber

The primers were slightly flattened on the surface, however there was no cratering, and the edged were still rounded, not flowed out. It did have light ejector swipes. There was no swipe at 27.2g.

The day was cooler when I tested. Being that CFE223 is no the most temperature stable powder, I don't want to work it up now and have problems this summer. I was planning to put the ammo in my lunch pail next time to keep it from getting cold.

How much stock should I be putting in the ejector swipes, vs the primers looking normal? Sorry no pix, I hope to test again next week and will get some then if there are any swipes.

[Nathan]

How does factory ammo look from your gun?

[Shadow9mm]

haven't fired factory in a while. will have to dig out some 5.56 to compare. good idea, thanks.

[jetinteriorguy]

If this is brass that’s been fired before, perhaps the swipes were from previously being fired.

[mehavey]

If case brass has been pressured into extrusion in the ejector cut-out slot, the pressure was too high for the case.
(Notwithstanding any primer conditions)

What brass manufacturer ?

[RC20]

Ejector wipes and up on the high end says drop it down 5/10. Only reason I don't say any is I am not familiar with gas guns and ejector wipes. If it was a bolt its no questions asked, duck and cover.

As it gets warmer it gets worse even in temp stable powders, they just don't jack it up as much.

[Shadow9mm]

Originally Posted by mehavey

If case brass has been pressured into extrusion in the ejector cut-out slot, the pressure was too high for the case.
(Notwithstanding any primer conditions)

What brass manufacturer ?

If i remember right, lake city

[Shadow9mm]

Originally Posted by RC20

Ejector wipes and up on the high end says drop it down 5/10. Only reason I don't say any is I am not familiar with gas guns and ejector wipes. If it was a bolt its no questions asked, duck and cover.

As it gets warmer it gets worse even in temp stable powders, they just don't jack it up as much.

What do you mean by 5/10, you mean 0.5g I presume?

[mehavey]

five tenths
1/2 grain

Being cold when you tested, I'd personally drop a full grain
to build in some hot margin.... with that brass.

[Shadow9mm]

Originally Posted by mehavey

five tenths
1/2 grain

Being cold when you tested, I'd personally drop a full grain
to build in some hot margin.... with that brass.

Ok. when I did my testing I tried 27.4, 27.2, 27.0. for 27.2 down no swipes visible.

I loaded up another test batch. same string, 27.4, 27.2, 27.0

My plan is to keep the mags inside my jacket, so its on the warmer side. then straight into the gun to test. Loaded 3rnds for each charge weight. gonna test just 1 at a time and look for signs. The loads are direct from the hornady manual for 223, and I have a 5.56 chamber gun so they should be more than ok. Also going to fire a coupe factory 5.56 to see how they look for comparison.

Will take pix for comparison.

[Metal god]

Are they smears like this



Or brass flow into the ejector port like this , ignore the arrow and look at the upper right case . Note the circle around the 1 of the 14 . That was bras flow into the ejector port . Sorry about the clarity

[Shadow9mm]

It looks like the 2nd pic, but no flow, just a scuff on the brass, a bright shiny spot that looks like it as polished.

[HiBC]

I'm not speaking as an authority here. Jus my opinion.
Its worth looking at primers and case heads for "sign". Yellow flags,red flags,etc. But there is no calibrated instrument there.

Some scuff on the face of the brass could be made during feeding by a sharp edge on the bolt face around the extractor. Or maybe your ejector is getting sticky.

But there is a round hole in your bolt face for the ejector. If the brass extrudes into that round hole,yes,you have unacceptable pressure . Typically,that extrusion gets sheared or scraped off as the bolt rotates out of battery.
Thats easy to recognize if you see it. There may be fine crescent shaped brass scrapings as a result. Those can enter the ejector hole and foul the ejector.

If those things are happening,you are too hot.Maybe the bass is unusually soft.

Here is a lesson I have learned. Published loads CAN be too hot. But I'm skeptical anything dramatic will happen using correct components and a published tested load.

Here is the price you will pay if your5.56 or 223 loads are hot.

The case heads are not overly strong around the primer pockets. Loading hot will give you loose primer pockets.

Once you lose a lot of about 500 rounds of brass to loose pockets after 2 or 3 loadings the attraction of another 75 or 100 fps is replaced with "How can get more loads out of my brass?"
Especially if you buy new,virgin brass.
Load small lots till you are sure the pockets hold up

[Unclenick]

We need photos to get a better idea. LC case heads are hard, but something like MG's second photo can happen because the ejector body stands a bit proud of the bolt face and may mean little by itself. I've seen it occur even with moderate loads in some guns with some brass (though I can't recall which brass, off the top of my head).

[Shadow9mm]

Ok, so I think I'm good. I checked my heads before firing and found some already had ejector swipes. After firing, there were no new marks. Primers are flattened, but not flowed, no cratering. I thing the ejector swipes I was seeing were there from a previous firing.

Need to do some more testing in relation to warmer temps. It was only 25f out when I tested. I did put the ammo in a cooler with a hot water bottle to try and keep it as warm as I could to help make sure it will be ok as CFE223 is not the most temperature stable.

[stagpanther]

@OP: LC is tuff stuff--I assume you swaged/turned the primer pockets if it's 5.56/nato marked? Any signs of unusual expansion in case diameter dimensions in the head area? While it could simply be a stiff bolt or a loose-side chamber, it's still something of concern to me when I see those signs that something isn't right. What was your bullet and COL? The only max 27.4 gr CFE 233 charge I find in the hornady manual is for 223 rem, so there is that if you're using the thicker LC 5.56 case. However, I just ran the numbers through QL and it looks to me like Hornady's max charges stay well within max pressure, though it is a highly compressed charge if you are following their COL's. Call me superstitious, but I stay away from compressed charges as a personal rule.

[Shadow9mm]

yes. Hornady load data, with Hornady bullets, to Hornady COL, with light crimp from a lee factory crimp die. Casings were resized with RCBS small base dies, fired in a 5.56 spec ar platform rifle.

As far as compressed. Hornady does not seems to specify. I generally try to avoid compressed loads. Based on the case fill, it looked like the base might be close to, or touching the powder but I was not anticipating any compression.

hand loads 3 shot tests

hand load, 55g hrn fmj
27.0 avg 2875, sd 75.02
27.2 avg 2867, sd 49.90
27.4 avg, 2888, sd 76.27

hand load 55g hrn sp
27.0 avg 2854, sd 90.14
27.2 avg 2872, sd 27.43
27.4 avg 2910, sd 49.00

factory loads 5rnd tests

PMC 223, 55g AVG 2930, sd 34.43
win 5.56, ??g, avg 3054, sd 23.96
FC 223, ??gg avg 2917, sd 16.08
black hills 77g otm, avg 2756, sd 13.04


Here here are my handloads (silver cci primers), left to right 27.0, 27.2, 27.4


Here are factory loads. left to right, blach hills 77g otm, fc 55g 223, win 5.56, PMC 223 fired same gun same day for comparison purposes.

[Shadow9mm]

And for more fun, my 30-06 load workup fell flat as well.

Hornady 150g interlock BT and FMJ BT.
Both loaded to hornady COL with hornady data.
CCI primers RP cases.

Hornady shows a max of 60.g
Wester shows a max of 59.9 for the Hrn fmjbt 150g, at the same COL, 3.185, western does not list this as a compressed load.

I got to 57.7 with the SP, started cratering
I got to 58.9 with the fmj, started cratering

Keep in mind, this rifle has flattened EVERY primer for every cartridge I have ever put in it, factory, or starting hand load. It is TC Compass with a 21.625in barrel.



The last one for each just started to crater, the ones prior looked fine


1rnd tests, working up towards max, looking for pressure signs
150g SP
55.3 2888fps
55.9 2905 fps
56.5 2956 fps
57.1 2984fps
57.7 3028 fps minimally cratered primer, stopped

150g FMJ-BT
55.3 2931fps
55.9 2896 fps
56.5 2909 fps
57.1 2981 fps
58.3 3015 fps
58.9 3078 fps minimally crated primer, stopped

[lll Otto lll]

Originally Posted by Shadow9mm

Hey, So I worked up some 223 loads the other day with CFE223 and CCI standard small rifle primers. I ran up to the max of 27.4g per the hornady manual. 16" barrel, mid length gas. 5.56 chamber

The primers were slightly flattened on the surface, however there was no cratering, and the edged were still rounded, not flowed out. It did have light ejector swipes. There was no swipe at 27.2g.

CCI 400 -thin .020" cup, not recommended for AR15 use by CCI/Speer.

[Shadow9mm]

well, that's less than ideal... Just called CCI to verify. Apparently this is due to the possibility of a slamfire. They said point hte gun in a safe direction(at a range), from bolt lock drop the bolt to chamber a cartridge. If there is any significant indentation from the firing pin, do not use. Mine have a tiney mark, nothing significat. have been using CCI 400 in my AR for a while with no issue. will switch to 41 or 450 if and or when primers become available again...

CCI recommended #41 or #450 for AR's. Apparently they are both magnum primer (thicker cups with more priming compound) and the #41 had the angle of the anvil changed to prevent slamfires...

have been using CCI 400 in my AR for a while with no issue. will switch to 41 or 450 if and or when primers become available again...

[mehavey]

I venture say that "All" floating firing pin designs result in (very light but...) visible imprint on the primer when cycling.

[stagpanther]

yes. Hornady load data, with Hornady bullets, to Hornady COL, with light crimp from a lee factory crimp die. Casings were resized with RCBS small base dies, fired in a 5.56 spec ar platform rifle.

As far as compressed. Hornady does not seems to specify. I generally try to avoid compressed loads. Based on the case fill, it looked like the base might be close to, or touching the powder but I was not anticipating any compression.

OK--I see by the rim face markings those are Nato cases, so you're filling the nato case with a recipe for .223 rem, nonetheless, QL returns a rather low-pressured max pressure and a velocity within 30 fps of the results you had and a compression factor of 5.8%. I'm not saying compression is a bad thing, I just get a little spooked by what could happen in an autoloader if there is an inadvertent bullet set-back on chambering.

[stagpanther]

Do you use case gauges and trimmers?

[Shadow9mm]

I trim all my cases with a worlds finest trimmer. Fairly consistent. I am transitioning over to RCBS x-series dies. after the first resize and trim, no more trimming, with no neck growth.

I have a case gauge. I usually check at random intervals after resizing and trimming to make sure they are in spec.

I agree, set back could be an issue but I try to mitigate that issue. The Hornady bullets I use, along with Hornadys COL, as it puts the cannelure right in the middle of the neck. Then a medium crimp with the lee factory crimp die. So far I have not had an issue with set back and everything has run well. Been loading for this rifle for a few years now, but switching powders due to the shortage has not been a fun experience.

[stagpanther]

I trim all my cases with a worlds finest trimmer. Fairly consistent. I am transitioning over to RCBS x-series dies. after the first resize and trim, no more trimming, with no neck growth.

I have a case gauge. I usually check at random intervals after resizing and trimming to make sure they are in spec.

I agree, set back could be an issue but I try to mitigate that issue. The Hornady bullets I use, along with Hornadys COL, as it puts the cannelure right in the middle of the neck. Then a medium crimp with the lee factory crimp die. So far I have not had an issue with set back and everything has run well. Been loading for this rifle for a few years now, but switching powders due to the shortage has not been a fun experience.
__________________
I don't believe in "range fodder" that is why I reload.

If you want I can replicate your load and try it in my 16" ARs and see if I get similar results?

Not much of a chance of setback with a 2.20 COL unless it smacks a lug or chamber face on the way in.