Air rifle shifts in POI

Koda94 · November 8, 2020, 04:09 PM

Benjamin Vaporizer Nitro Piston 22cal with airgun rated scope

Whats happening is I get it zeroed nicely then a day or few later the POI seems to rise typically about 1 or 2 inches high. I get nice 1" groups at my zero distance all the time but these random POI shifts are messing with me and when I adjust for it then eventually I shoot low Im constantly chasing my tail...

any tips or solutions?

shurshot · November 8, 2020, 06:26 PM

Consistent air temps? Groups fired in rapid succession, or spaced out? Same batch of pellets?

cslinger · November 8, 2020, 06:46 PM

Check your stock screws
Check your scope screws
Be aware that even minute changes in your hold or trigger pull matter a WHOLE LOT with spring/nitro air rifles.
Is your ammo good quality and from the same tin? Have you tried other pellets. Air rifles can be very pellet sensitive.

Koda94 · November 8, 2020, 09:39 PM

Everythings tight, scope, mounts, stock, air temps consistent though this has been an ongoing issue all year. I think its me...

hold, trigger pull... the thing has the. worst. trigger pull of any gun... long heavy and dragging. I dont know what I can do to improve my skill with consistent firing this thing. Some days I shoot great 1" groups others it kinda walks all over or around the 1" target dot. I'll fire 5 rds and get a great group off just a bit so I'll adjust and the group might not even move or sometimes moves somewhere else or sometimes it homes in and Im all good for a while.

Double K · November 8, 2020, 10:32 PM

And so goes the trials and tribulations of spring guns, everything you describe is related to inconsistency of holding the gun.
If your shooting offhand you have to either support the forward stock hand on your fingertips or use the open palm artillery hold, trigger hand should be treated like your holding a pistol, don't thumb it or roll your fingertips.
If your shooting off the bench use a solid rest and pretend your holding down a bear that wants to kill you.
Or you could just buy a pcp gun and shoot.

cslinger · November 8, 2020, 11:25 PM

You are shooting a fairly powerful, lower tier, nitro/spring gun. All of this is a recipe for difficulty, especially as a powder burner shooter. It’s counter intuitive but being a good powder burner shooter will NOT translate over to Airguns but being a good Airgun shooter will translate to being a better powder burner shooter.

Try using a very light hold. If benched, bench on a towel. These types of guns recoil like a sonofabitch in all directions and the pellet stays in the barrel for a comparatively long time. You CANNOT control the recoil like a powder burner. The key is to hold lightly and sort of let the gun recoil the same way every time. This way the pellet sort of slings it’s way to the target the same way every time.

High powered spring/nitro air guns are HARD taskmasters. Keep at it and lighten your hold and FOLLOW THROUGH THE SAME WAY EVERY TIME.

Keep in mind that the vast amount of time we gun guys want an air rifle strictly for fun but we also immediately gravitate to MORE POWAAAAA. The reality is you want a nice 500-700 FPS for a nice plinker.

All that said. Lighten your hold. Use a towel benched and use quality pellets (H&N, JSB, RWS, Crosman Premiers, etc.) and you should see a difference in consistency.

Good luck, don’t get discouraged. It’s a different discipline, check your gun guy knowledge at the door.

Koda94 · November 9, 2020, 01:02 AM

This is good advice, sounds like its all on me and my consistency.... and this is very different to resolve than firearm rifles. I did learn quickly that shooting positions varied the POI greatly... ive tried prone, kneeling, standing offhand, and lately the corner railing of my deck has been a great rest. When my mood is right Ive homed in on a nice zero that works for all but if its been a while or my mood is off the POI shifts and its frustrating to adjust and mess the sight in up. Its just so weird that one day the zero can be dead on and the next its a tight group but way over there...

@cslinger, Im going to try using a towel for the rest I think that will help lighten my hold consistent with offhand or prone.

Koda94 · November 9, 2020, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Double K

Or you could just buy a pcp gun and shoot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cslinger

You are shooting a fairly powerful, lower tier, nitro/spring gun. All of this is a recipe for difficulty, especially as a powder burner shooter.

I bought this to hunt rats near my chicken feed and its been way more fun than anticipated, I just cant have the POI shift on a rat size target I want clean kills. I'm all ears to any upgrade recommendations if its powerful enough to hunt rats and critters and solves the piston recoil issue and terrible trigger pull of the one I have now.

cslinger · November 9, 2020, 10:09 AM

Just use a light touch/hold. I know it’s is SOO COUNTERINTUITIVE to all of us normal shooters but you just need to let the rifle do it’s recoil thing.

It will be frustrating for you for a great while but once you get it down it’s a badge of Honor and I bet you find you shoot “real” guns better.

Also what range are you shooting at? Although the gun is absolutely capable of 50-60 yards you will find that difficult to say the least. Wind plays hell with these itty bitty projectiles not to mention your technique. Start off at 8-12 yards and work your way out.

I am fairly solid with a spring rifle out to about 30-40 yards and then I go all to hell.

.

cslinger · November 9, 2020, 10:31 AM

Quote:

I'm all ears to any upgrade recommendations if its powerful enough to hunt rats and critters and solves the piston recoil issue and terrible trigger pull of the one I have now.

I would just learn your rifle. The problem with airguns is really nice ones cost REAL GUN MONEY.

That said I am a Weihrauch guy. Fantastic triggers, very nice rifles. The HW95 would give you enough power and still be light and handy. That said you still need to learn to shoot these types of rifles. The HW97 is heavier, more unwieldy but laser accurate and more forgiving.

PCP rifles, or pre charged pneumatic guns, are charged with HIGH PRESSURE air. Like 3000-4500 psi. No shop compressor here. The guns are far easier to shoot and are more powder burner like but even though there are now some very affordable options you need the ancillary equipment to fill them. They can also tend to be pretty loud in general.

Now a fairly inexpensive gun that might work for you is a multi pump pneumatic. Think old school pump BB gun. A multi pump pneumatic pellet rifle gives you solid power at max pumps and have basically none of the recoil issues with a piston gun. Something like this.

https://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/Benja...Black_Kit/4942

Like I said. Learn your gun. Also try different pellets.

Double K · November 9, 2020, 11:53 AM

A couple of points, the airgun industry is moving towards pcp guns, some lower pressure guns can now be had for 200.00 like the Beeman qb chief 2. spring guns are on the way out. Pcp guns dominate the in country market in Europe, once you shoot one you'll understand why.
Pcp guns are the quietest airguns there are, most come threaded for a suppressor and many come with them, airgun suppressors are not controlled by nfa rules, they are 1/2x20 threaded so they don't fit on regular firearms and have plastic parts anyway.
Unlike spring guns there is no loud mechanism when fired, with a good suppressor they're almost completely silent.
My work gun is a Diana Outlaw, not crazy expensive {500.} but more accurate than almost any spring guns, I can kill pigeons and prairie dogs with it a 50yds 90% of the time one shot. It's got a great trigger for a gun in that price range btw. I also recently bought a new FX dreamline, fantastic rifle but not inexpensive.
Some pics.

37yds, typical shot in rural areas.

Smoke & Recoil · November 9, 2020, 12:32 PM

Isn't your rifle a break-barrel ?, if so, you may be cocking the barrel to hard causing the barrel to flex at the pivot point, changing point of impact.

Double K · November 9, 2020, 12:35 PM

Typically it's the lock-up on break barrel guns that causes vertical stringing, it's usually a spring loaded ball bearing, keeping it greased helps but it's a flawed design.

You can't go wrong with a Diana Outlaw, the accuracy of the gun is amazing, it's groups as good as guns costing 3 times as much. Mine shoots a 10.34gr. pellet average 940fps, sighted in at 30yds it's 2.5" low at 50yds.
With just over 20ft lbs of energy any game under 10lbs is easily taken.
https://www.airgunsofarizona.com/pre...pcp-air-rifle/

dyl · November 10, 2020, 01:02 AM

If you've got irons, you could try a few groups with iron sights - after checking that all screws are secured and nothing is loose.

Once i ruined an airgun rated scope because my hand slipped off the barrel while I was cocking it. I don't think it was rated for that particular kind of directional force and groups would wander.

Koda94 · November 10, 2020, 01:36 AM

Here's an example of the kind of groups I can get when my mood is just right, I just did this tonight after work... 5 shots in a row from off my deck railing (rest) at 16yds holding nothing differently than I always have.
This was after I spent an hour chasing my tail redialing in the scope yesterday where my group was shifting all over the place around the orange 1" dots... I gave up yesterday. No adjustments tonight just picked up the rifle to see where it was and fired 5 in a row like this.
yesterday bad, today great, who knows tomorrow. I see how shooting air can make me a better firearm shooter but if the recoil is this uncontrollable its an inferior design so I think I will consider looking into a PCP air rifle maybe by next summer. In the mean time I'll continue to work with this thing, when my game is on the rat hunting is fun.

Double K · November 10, 2020, 11:17 AM

Use airgun prices are high right now otherwise I might say look for a used gun.
Back when I had spring guns I owned a RWS 48 in .25 cal, pretty sure that was the scope killer gun of all time. The only one it didn't ruin and would hold a zero with was this one. The True strength series has locking turrets, stops the reticle from moving under recoil. My guess is the scope is your issue after seeing your target and more information.
https://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/Leape...3_8_Rings/4627

Koda94 · November 10, 2020, 12:09 PM

Its not the scope, my scope is fairly brand new and airgun rated.

Double K · November 10, 2020, 12:28 PM

What scope is it? Does it have a locking reticle? Lots of cheap airgun scopes out there that won't hold a zero on a hard recoiling airgun. I've had 3-4 that the reticles came loose in after less than 200 shots, they were "rated".

Koda94 · November 10, 2020, 12:45 PM

Its a UTG 3x9 Tru Hunter with illuminated reticle, airgun rated on UTGs page but more importantly had a few good reviews from airgunners. It has UTGs locking turrets.

I bought it this year to replace the scope that came with the rifle which fell apart quickly.

Erno86 · November 11, 2020, 11:38 AM

Consistent pellet seating depth? You might want to try an airgun pellet seater. (check out YouTube)

Crosswind direction on right and left twisted rifle barrels can sometimes make difference on P.O.I..

Keep about to be loaded pellets at a consistent temperature.

My air rifle is a Diana Model 54 Air King in .177 - sidecocker and is recoilless.

A tip I learned from the late Marine sniper - Carlos Hathcock's book, that immensely helped me in the rifle accuracy department:

"A slight rearward pull with the firing hand."

Of course...you'll have to treat your trigger finger as it's own entity.

HJ857 · November 11, 2020, 01:23 PM

There's a good chance your problem is parallax in the scope. Even if the scope has a "focus" adjustment, it's probably not going to take out all the parallax.

T. O'Heir · November 11, 2020, 03:11 PM

Changes in the POI indicates a bedding issue or something with the sight. Bedding isn't likely the issue with a synthetic stocked air rifle.
Does the rifle have iron sights? If so, does it do the same thing with irons?
What kind of pellet? Cheap pellets might be the issue.
Just bought a Daisy M953(match grade sights no scope. 500 FPS) but haven't played with it yet. Need a bag of sand. I don't know if humidity matters or not.
"...nice ones cost REAL GUN MONEY..." Yep. The Daisy was nearly $400Cdn. to my door, almost(Canada Post didn't make the delivery). Feinwerkbau's can go to around $3500US. Dunno where Benjamins fit.

November 8, 2020, 04:09 PM	#1
Koda94 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2012 Location: Cascadia Posts: 1,363	Air rifle shifts in POI Benjamin Vaporizer Nitro Piston 22cal with airgun rated scope Whats happening is I get it zeroed nicely then a day or few later the POI seems to rise typically about 1 or 2 inches high. I get nice 1" groups at my zero distance all the time but these random POI shifts are messing with me and when I adjust for it then eventually I shoot low Im constantly chasing my tail... any tips or solutions? __________________ lightweight, cheap, strong... pick 2

November 8, 2020, 06:46 PM	#3
cslinger Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2002 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 2,049	Check your stock screws Check your scope screws Be aware that even minute changes in your hold or trigger pull matter a WHOLE LOT with spring/nitro air rifles. Is your ammo good quality and from the same tin? Have you tried other pellets. Air rifles can be very pellet sensitive. __________________ "Is there anyway I can write my local gun store off on my taxes as dependents?"

November 8, 2020, 09:39 PM	#4
Koda94 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2012 Location: Cascadia Posts: 1,363	Everythings tight, scope, mounts, stock, air temps consistent though this has been an ongoing issue all year. I think its me... hold, trigger pull... the thing has the. worst. trigger pull of any gun... long heavy and dragging. I dont know what I can do to improve my skill with consistent firing this thing. Some days I shoot great 1" groups others it kinda walks all over or around the 1" target dot. I'll fire 5 rds and get a great group off just a bit so I'll adjust and the group might not even move or sometimes moves somewhere else or sometimes it homes in and Im all good for a while. __________________ lightweight, cheap, strong... pick 2

November 8, 2020, 11:25 PM	#6
cslinger Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2002 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 2,049	You are shooting a fairly powerful, lower tier, nitro/spring gun. All of this is a recipe for difficulty, especially as a powder burner shooter. It’s counter intuitive but being a good powder burner shooter will NOT translate over to Airguns but being a good Airgun shooter will translate to being a better powder burner shooter. Try using a very light hold. If benched, bench on a towel. These types of guns recoil like a sonofabitch in all directions and the pellet stays in the barrel for a comparatively long time. You CANNOT control the recoil like a powder burner. The key is to hold lightly and sort of let the gun recoil the same way every time. This way the pellet sort of slings it’s way to the target the same way every time. High powered spring/nitro air guns are HARD taskmasters. Keep at it and lighten your hold and FOLLOW THROUGH THE SAME WAY EVERY TIME. Keep in mind that the vast amount of time we gun guys want an air rifle strictly for fun but we also immediately gravitate to MORE POWAAAAA. The reality is you want a nice 500-700 FPS for a nice plinker. All that said. Lighten your hold. Use a towel benched and use quality pellets (H&N, JSB, RWS, Crosman Premiers, etc.) and you should see a difference in consistency. Good luck, don’t get discouraged. It’s a different discipline, check your gun guy knowledge at the door. __________________ "Is there anyway I can write my local gun store off on my taxes as dependents?"

November 9, 2020, 01:02 AM	#7
Koda94 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2012 Location: Cascadia Posts: 1,363	This is good advice, sounds like its all on me and my consistency.... and this is very different to resolve than firearm rifles. I did learn quickly that shooting positions varied the POI greatly... ive tried prone, kneeling, standing offhand, and lately the corner railing of my deck has been a great rest. When my mood is right Ive homed in on a nice zero that works for all but if its been a while or my mood is off the POI shifts and its frustrating to adjust and mess the sight in up. Its just so weird that one day the zero can be dead on and the next its a tight group but way over there... @cslinger, Im going to try using a towel for the rest I think that will help lighten my hold consistent with offhand or prone. __________________ lightweight, cheap, strong... pick 2

November 8, 2020, 06:26 PM	#2
shurshot Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2006 Posts: 1,819	Consistent air temps? Groups fired in rapid succession, or spaced out? Same batch of pellets?

November 8, 2020, 10:32 PM	#5
Double K Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2020 Location: Colorado Posts: 486	And so goes the trials and tribulations of spring guns, everything you describe is related to inconsistency of holding the gun. If your shooting offhand you have to either support the forward stock hand on your fingertips or use the open palm artillery hold, trigger hand should be treated like your holding a pistol, don't thumb it or roll your fingertips. If your shooting off the bench use a solid rest and pretend your holding down a bear that wants to kill you. Or you could just buy a pcp gun and shoot.

November 9, 2020, 10:09 AM	#9
cslinger Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2002 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 2,049	Just use a light touch/hold. I know it’s is SOO COUNTERINTUITIVE to all of us normal shooters but you just need to let the rifle do it’s recoil thing. It will be frustrating for you for a great while but once you get it down it’s a badge of Honor and I bet you find you shoot “real” guns better. Also what range are you shooting at? Although the gun is absolutely capable of 50-60 yards you will find that difficult to say the least. Wind plays hell with these itty bitty projectiles not to mention your technique. Start off at 8-12 yards and work your way out. I am fairly solid with a spring rifle out to about 30-40 yards and then I go all to hell. . __________________ "Is there anyway I can write my local gun store off on my taxes as dependents?"

November 9, 2020, 11:53 AM	#11
Double K Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2020 Location: Colorado Posts: 486	A couple of points, the airgun industry is moving towards pcp guns, some lower pressure guns can now be had for 200.00 like the Beeman qb chief 2. spring guns are on the way out. Pcp guns dominate the in country market in Europe, once you shoot one you'll understand why. Pcp guns are the quietest airguns there are, most come threaded for a suppressor and many come with them, airgun suppressors are not controlled by nfa rules, they are 1/2x20 threaded so they don't fit on regular firearms and have plastic parts anyway. Unlike spring guns there is no loud mechanism when fired, with a good suppressor they're almost completely silent. My work gun is a Diana Outlaw, not crazy expensive {500.} but more accurate than almost any spring guns, I can kill pigeons and prairie dogs with it a 50yds 90% of the time one shot. It's got a great trigger for a gun in that price range btw. I also recently bought a new FX dreamline, fantastic rifle but not inexpensive. Some pics. 37yds, typical shot in rural areas. Last edited by Double K; November 9, 2020 at 12:37 PM.

November 9, 2020, 12:32 PM	#12
Smoke & Recoil Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: East shore of Lake Michigan. Posts: 731	Isn't your rifle a break-barrel ?, if so, you may be cocking the barrel to hard causing the barrel to flex at the pivot point, changing point of impact. __________________ Sent from my Tandy 1000

November 9, 2020, 12:35 PM	#13
Double K Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2020 Location: Colorado Posts: 486	Typically it's the lock-up on break barrel guns that causes vertical stringing, it's usually a spring loaded ball bearing, keeping it greased helps but it's a flawed design. You can't go wrong with a Diana Outlaw, the accuracy of the gun is amazing, it's groups as good as guns costing 3 times as much. Mine shoots a 10.34gr. pellet average 940fps, sighted in at 30yds it's 2.5" low at 50yds. With just over 20ft lbs of energy any game under 10lbs is easily taken. https://www.airgunsofarizona.com/pre...pcp-air-rifle/ Last edited by Double K; November 9, 2020 at 05:04 PM.

November 10, 2020, 01:02 AM	#14
dyl Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2009 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,310	If you've got irons, you could try a few groups with iron sights - after checking that all screws are secured and nothing is loose. Once i ruined an airgun rated scope because my hand slipped off the barrel while I was cocking it. I don't think it was rated for that particular kind of directional force and groups would wander.

November 10, 2020, 11:17 AM	#16
Double K Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2020 Location: Colorado Posts: 486	Use airgun prices are high right now otherwise I might say look for a used gun. Back when I had spring guns I owned a RWS 48 in .25 cal, pretty sure that was the scope killer gun of all time. The only one it didn't ruin and would hold a zero with was this one. The True strength series has locking turrets, stops the reticle from moving under recoil. My guess is the scope is your issue after seeing your target and more information. https://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/Leape...3_8_Rings/4627

November 10, 2020, 12:09 PM	#17
Koda94 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2012 Location: Cascadia Posts: 1,363	Its not the scope, my scope is fairly brand new and airgun rated. __________________ lightweight, cheap, strong... pick 2

November 10, 2020, 12:28 PM	#18
Double K Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2020 Location: Colorado Posts: 486	What scope is it? Does it have a locking reticle? Lots of cheap airgun scopes out there that won't hold a zero on a hard recoiling airgun. I've had 3-4 that the reticles came loose in after less than 200 shots, they were "rated".

November 10, 2020, 12:45 PM	#19
Koda94 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2012 Location: Cascadia Posts: 1,363	Its a UTG 3x9 Tru Hunter with illuminated reticle, airgun rated on UTGs page but more importantly had a few good reviews from airgunners. It has UTGs locking turrets. I bought it this year to replace the scope that came with the rifle which fell apart quickly. __________________ lightweight, cheap, strong... pick 2

November 11, 2020, 11:38 AM	#20
Erno86 Senior Member Join Date: September 22, 2012 Location: Marriottsville, Maryland Posts: 1,779	Consistent pellet seating depth? You might want to try an airgun pellet seater. (check out YouTube) Crosswind direction on right and left twisted rifle barrels can sometimes make difference on P.O.I.. Keep about to be loaded pellets at a consistent temperature. My air rifle is a Diana Model 54 Air King in .177 - sidecocker and is recoilless. A tip I learned from the late Marine sniper - Carlos Hathcock's book, that immensely helped me in the rifle accuracy department: "A slight rearward pull with the firing hand." Of course...you'll have to treat your trigger finger as it's own entity. __________________ That rifle hanging on the wall of the working class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." --- George Orwell

November 11, 2020, 01:23 PM	#21
HJ857 Senior Member Join Date: January 9, 2007 Posts: 448	There's a good chance your problem is parallax in the scope. Even if the scope has a "focus" adjustment, it's probably not going to take out all the parallax.

November 11, 2020, 03:11 PM	#22
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	Changes in the POI indicates a bedding issue or something with the sight. Bedding isn't likely the issue with a synthetic stocked air rifle. Does the rifle have iron sights? If so, does it do the same thing with irons? What kind of pellet? Cheap pellets might be the issue. Just bought a Daisy M953(match grade sights no scope. 500 FPS) but haven't played with it yet. Need a bag of sand. I don't know if humidity matters or not. "...nice ones cost REAL GUN MONEY..." Yep. The Daisy was nearly $400Cdn. to my door, almost(Canada Post didn't make the delivery). Feinwerkbau's can go to around $3500US. Dunno where Benjamins fit.