Green dot loads for plated .40 S&W?

dgang · September 24, 2020, 05:45 PM

Find myself with about 8# of Alliant green dot powder from trap shooting days. Since Alliant no longer recognizes Green Dot as a pistol powder I'm hoping somebody has some data for plated 155, 165, and 180gr. bullets in .40 S&W for use at the range. I have some idea from old Alliant manuals but they are for 150 gr. and 170gr. jacketed bullets, plus Alliant has changed their data for Bullseye and Red Dot, so I assume for G.D. also.They calling for more powder and quite a bit less velocity. Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance.

**Unclenick** · September 24, 2020, 06:08 PM

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data not covered by currently published sources of tested data for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assumes any liability for any damage or injury resulting from the use of this information.

Lots of loads have changed since full graphical piezoelectric transducer pressure readings became available that reveal previously unidentified pressure issues.

In the case of Green Dot, if you look it up as a product and click on all the load recipes using it, you will find 44 Mag target loads, 45 Colt and 45 Auto. From that data and from QuickLOAD, it appears you can use Green Dot in quantities 10% lower than Bullseye. I would start 25% below a Bullseye recipe and work up while watching for pressure signs.

dgang · September 24, 2020, 07:01 PM

Thanks Unclenick, I saw the .44 and .45 loads on their site. I'm puzzled about reducing loads for Bullseye by 10 or 25%. Always thought Green Dot was a slower powder.

dgang · September 24, 2020, 07:04 PM

Sorry, didn't think about what you were saying. Reduce loads from the data for .44 and .45 loads. My bad.

dgang · September 25, 2020, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unclenick

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data not covered by currently published sources of tested data for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assumes any liability for any damage or injury resulting from the use of this information.

Lots of loads have changed since full graphical piezoelectric transducer pressure readings became available that reveal previously unidentified pressure issues.

In the case of Green Dot, if you look it up as a product and click on all the load recipes using it, you will find 44 Mag target loads, 45 Colt and 45 Auto. From that data and from QuickLOAD, it appears you can use Green Dot in quantities 10% lower than Bullseye. I would start 25% below a Bullseye recipe and work up while watching for pressure signs.

I understand with the newer methods of measuring pressure ( piezoelectric transducer) the powder producers (in this case Alliant) thought it safe to increase the powder charge and still maintain safe pressures. With Red Dot, Bullseye, and Green Dot the increase was across the board. However even with the increase of powder the muzzle velocity fell significantly, up to 200 fps or more. Is this a case of Alliant simply extrapolating from the pressure they had at the time or wishful thinking on their part? I have to think they had modern chronographs at their disposal.

Marco Califo · September 25, 2020, 11:53 AM

http://www.castpics.net/LoadData/Fre...liant_2000.pdf

**Unclenick** · September 25, 2020, 01:43 PM

DGang,

I meant reduce a 40 S&W Bullseye load when using Green Dot. The powder data in QuickLOAD is based on measured characteristics from samples of the powders and it gets higher peak pressures from Green Dot. Even though Green Dot's burn rate factor is a little slower than Bullseye's and its energy content is a little lower in QuickLOAD, Green Dot produces higher pressures in the software due to its characteristic burning curve having a sharper initial pressure climb than Bullseye's does.

Powder characteristics are complicated, and burn rate factor alone doesn't tell you all that is going on. Besides, what you see in Relative Burn Rate charts is not the order of the actual burn rate factors. The Relative Burn Rate charts put powders in their "behaves-as-if" order based on pressure developed by putting the same charge weight in the same cartridge with the same bullet and primer. It is frequently the case that the order of some pair of powders reverses if the cartridge or projectile or primer or change weight are changed. This is why different charts disagree about the order. The authors used different cartridges or bullets or charge weights or primers or any combination of all of those things.

The bottom line is the charts can help get you into the ballpark of what a powder is good for, but that's about their limit.

noylj · September 25, 2020, 02:31 PM

Other option: unless you know how to work up loads for powders without load data, don't buy powders unless you have load data.
Plated bullets--use lead data.
Bayou L-RN, 155gn, Green Dot 4.0gn, 1.130" COL, start at 3.6gn and work up for safety.
This is lower than the starting load for Bullseye for this bullet.

dgang · September 25, 2020, 03:50 PM

OK, Thanks guys.

September 24, 2020, 05:45 PM	#1
dgang Senior Member Join Date: April 15, 2000 Location: Colorado Posts: 211	Green dot loads for plated .40 S&W? Find myself with about 8# of Alliant green dot powder from trap shooting days. Since Alliant no longer recognizes Green Dot as a pistol powder I'm hoping somebody has some data for plated 155, 165, and 180gr. bullets in .40 S&W for use at the range. I have some idea from old Alliant manuals but they are for 150 gr. and 170gr. jacketed bullets, plus Alliant has changed their data for Bullseye and Red Dot, so I assume for G.D. also.They calling for more powder and quite a bit less velocity. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance. __________________ I shoot, therefore I am.

September 24, 2020, 06:08 PM	#2
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,743	CAUTION: The following post includes loading data not covered by currently published sources of tested data for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assumes any liability for any damage or injury resulting from the use of this information. Lots of loads have changed since full graphical piezoelectric transducer pressure readings became available that reveal previously unidentified pressure issues. In the case of Green Dot, if you look it up as a product and click on all the load recipes using it, you will find 44 Mag target loads, 45 Colt and 45 Auto. From that data and from QuickLOAD, it appears you can use Green Dot in quantities 10% lower than Bullseye. I would start 25% below a Bullseye recipe and work up while watching for pressure signs. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

September 24, 2020, 07:01 PM	#3
dgang Senior Member Join Date: April 15, 2000 Location: Colorado Posts: 211	Thanks Unclenick, I saw the .44 and .45 loads on their site. I'm puzzled about reducing loads for Bullseye by 10 or 25%. Always thought Green Dot was a slower powder. __________________ I shoot, therefore I am.

September 24, 2020, 07:04 PM	#4
dgang Senior Member Join Date: April 15, 2000 Location: Colorado Posts: 211	Sorry, didn't think about what you were saying. Reduce loads from the data for .44 and .45 loads. My bad. __________________ I shoot, therefore I am.

September 25, 2020, 11:53 AM	#6
Marco Califo Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2011 Location: LA (Greater Los Angeles Area) Posts: 2,722	2000 Alliant Data for Green Dot in 40SW http://www.castpics.net/LoadData/Fre...liant_2000.pdf __________________ ............

September 25, 2020, 01:43 PM	#7
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,743	DGang, I meant reduce a 40 S&W Bullseye load when using Green Dot. The powder data in QuickLOAD is based on measured characteristics from samples of the powders and it gets higher peak pressures from Green Dot. Even though Green Dot's burn rate factor is a little slower than Bullseye's and its energy content is a little lower in QuickLOAD, Green Dot produces higher pressures in the software due to its characteristic burning curve having a sharper initial pressure climb than Bullseye's does. Powder characteristics are complicated, and burn rate factor alone doesn't tell you all that is going on. Besides, what you see in Relative Burn Rate charts is not the order of the actual burn rate factors. The Relative Burn Rate charts put powders in their "behaves-as-if" order based on pressure developed by putting the same charge weight in the same cartridge with the same bullet and primer. It is frequently the case that the order of some pair of powders reverses if the cartridge or projectile or primer or change weight are changed. This is why different charts disagree about the order. The authors used different cartridges or bullets or charge weights or primers or any combination of all of those things. The bottom line is the charts can help get you into the ballpark of what a powder is good for, but that's about their limit. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

September 25, 2020, 02:31 PM	#8
noylj Senior Member Join Date: October 22, 2007 Location: Between CA and NM Posts: 860	Other option: unless you know how to work up loads for powders without load data, don't buy powders unless you have load data. Plated bullets--use lead data. Bayou L-RN, 155gn, Green Dot 4.0gn, 1.130" COL, start at 3.6gn and work up for safety. This is lower than the starting load for Bullseye for this bullet.

September 25, 2020, 03:50 PM	#9
dgang Senior Member Join Date: April 15, 2000 Location: Colorado Posts: 211	OK, Thanks guys. __________________ I shoot, therefore I am.