Hard to extract reloads....need some wisdom

[Wildernesshunter]

Need some wisdom.....

I have a Howa 1500 MiniAction in a 7.62x39. After I reloaded my brass twice, I annealed the brass, resized (RCBS RockChucker), and then I trimmed the cases for the first time. Finally, primed....powder and seated the bullet.

I reloaded 18 rounds, and all of them were hard to extract. More specifically, I had great difficulty raising/rotating the bolt. Once fully rotated, the shells came out fine. But I had to really crank hard on the bolt to get it to fully rotate.

Anyone know what I did wrong or why this is happening?

I haven't measured the cases yet, but that might tell me something.

By the way, there was no evidence of excessive pressure: flat primers, etc. And my reloads were about 10k lower than maximum PSI.

(Edited, deleting CUP and changing to PSI.)

[reddog81]

I have no idea but it might help if you posted the load data, brass type, bullet type, OAL, type of lube used when resizing... The more info the better.

If it were me I'd pull some of the bullets and check the powder weight to make sure the cases actually have the correct powder and the correct amount. It sounds like an over pressure load and the brass is expanding too much and getting stuck in the chamber

[SonOfGun]

By the way, there was no evidence of excessive pressure

One sign of over pressure IS difficulty in extraction.

What equipment did you use to determine CUP?

[Wildernesshunter]

Cases: Winchester
Bullets: Hornady SST 7.62 (.310), 123gr
A2200 Powder
RCBS Case Lube and roller pad

9 reloads with 30.0 grains (approximately 43,000 PSI)
9 reloads with 31.0 grains (approximately 44,000 PSI)

(Max PSI for this round is about 52,000 PSI)


PSI values were taken directly off the Accuracy website for reloads with this round and that specific Hornady bullet.

[ligonierbill]

Over pressure is the first thought. Stiff bolt is a common sign. You may have over done the annealing. If your brass is dead soft, it may exceed the elastic range and fail to spring back, even though pressure is within spec.

[Wildernesshunter]

If I over did the annealing, once I measure the cases.....will they measure far too long? I hadn't ever thought that 'over-annealing' would soften the brass.

And another question.....if I over did the annealing, will the brass eventually stiffen up?

I will be able to measure the cases in a couple hours and will post those measurements.

[Wildernesshunter]

Also, I can't pull any bullets and check powder weights. I shot all 18 rounds.

I will say that I hand measure each round on the scale with a trickler. And 31.0 grains is the absolute maximum powder amount this case will hold.

[44 AMP]

After I reloaded my brass twice,...

This might be your answer, in part...

You reloaded the brass twice, and had NO issues, correct???

What did you do DIFFERENTLY this time???

Was the load the same?

Was annealing and trimming the only difference??

I doubt trimming was a factor, even cases with necks trimmed drastically too short seldom give problems (as long as the headspace is correct).

When you measure the fired cases, carefull measure the case HEAD diameters.

Normally, length won't matter for extraction, but a "swelled head" will.

And, even if the heads are within spec, it still could be, as mentioned, the brass being too "soft". There is a range of elasticity needed for proper function, and it is slightly different at the case head and case mouth. The case head needs to be "harder" (less elastic) so it doesn't swell and stick. The case mouth (neck) needs to be softer, so it will expand to release the bullet, then spring back from the chamber slightly (so it doesn't stick) and do this over and over without cracking.

Brass work hardens with each firing and reloading cycle, and we anneal case necks to soften that hardness to prevent cracking.

IF too much of the heat from annealing the neck gets to the case head, it gets softer than it should be, and this will give you problems.

The hard bolt lift is because primary extraction is taking place during the bolt lift. Cases are being pulled back out of the chamber a small amount, due to the camming action of the locking lugs.

a HARD bolt lift means your brass was stuck against the chamber walls more than normal. ONE reason this can happen is too much pressure. ANOTHER reason is too soft brass at normal pressure. Once the grip on the chamber walls is broken, extraction will seem (and be) normal.

IF you softened the case heads (accidently) those cases ought to go into the scrap bin. Annealing is something that is easy to do wrong, and I think encouraged to be done way too often. If you aren't losing cases from neck cracking, you simply don't need to do it.

It might be me, the way I do things, but I've been reloading over 45 years, load for over 30 cartridges ranging from .22 Hornet to .458Win Mag, and I've never annealed any of them, ever.

YMMV

[Wildernesshunter]

Case trimming and annealing were the added elements this time.


Case length for the 7.62x39 ranges from 1.515 to 1.555, depending upon which source I reference. I trimmed my cases to 1.515. Nearly all of them are now measuring 1.540.

In one firing they stretched 0.025.

Maybe annealing did soften the brass.

[flyguy958]

Hard to rotate bolt is a good sign of excessive pressure.

A case that stretched .025" on one firing may be an indication you are bumping the shoulder way to far back. Don't ask how i found this out. If that is the cause then your brass will show early signs of head separation. You may want to check with a paper clip.

Did you change the OAL of the loaded round? If you jam the bullet into the lands that will cause pressure problems.

At the first sign of excessive pressure you need to slow down and find the problem, not continue to fire the rounds. That's inviting a disaster.

[5whiskey]

Wilderness, are you full length sizing or neck sizing? If you neck size only, you may be dealing with shoulder stretch making your headspace too tight. This would explain hard bolt lift, but the round otherwise ejects smoothly. I would remove the bolt and drop an empty in the chamber. If it chambers completely without "hanging up," and you can rotate the spent case in the chamber, then your issue will not be overpressure and diameter-swollen brass. It will be headspace related. If this is the case, FL size the brass.

[Nvreloader]

WH

"I reloaded 18 rounds, and all of them were hard to extract.

More specifically, I had great difficulty raising/rotating the bolt.

Question, Was this before or after firing these cases?

Once fully rotated, the shells came out fine. But I had to really crank hard on the bolt to get it to fully rotate".

Tia,
Don

[ShootistPRS]

I don't know where you are getting your load data from or how you are measuring your pressure but I believe you are flirting with high pressure overloads in your gun.
The only information that I found for AA2200 listed two loads at 26 and 27 grains with 123 grain spitzer soft point bullets. You are using 15% more powder and IMHO your gun is trying to tell you that it is too much pressure.

Things to check:
1. is the chamber clean and free of oil?
2. how much of the case did you anneal and what was the temperature and how long did you hold the brass at that temperature?
3. how close to the lands were your bullets seated? (max length is listed at 2.2")
4. Are there marks on the base of the case from the bolt head?

[F. Guffey]

Once fully rotated, the shells came out fine. But I had to really crank hard on the bolt to get it to fully rotate".

For the most part it is cheaper for me to build Mausers than purchase new rifles. All of my Mausers are designed to 'cam' back meaning when I raise the bolt the bolt rotates and moves to the rear. The reward movement extracts the case from the chamber.

And then there are events reloaders have never thought of; for example, I have crushed a few case heads to the point the extractor was not touching the extractor groove in the case. When that happens the bolt opens with little to no effort but when pulling the bolt back that is another story.

And then there were times I crushed the case head to the point the extractor was locked between the case head and extractor way. I know, some of you could be worried but I have purchased rifles that have been advertised as suspect. If I render a rifle scrap; it was suspect.

F. Guffey

[Wildernesshunter]

The bullets were off the lands, so no worry there.

The Accuracy website and load data for A2200 shows that 30.7gr can be used with the Sierra 125gr bullet. 29.4gr with a Hornady 123gr SST only produces 42k PSI.

I only annealed the necks of the cases.

I full length resize.

The ammo fed and locked down just fine.

The gun was cleaned, a couple of days prior to range time.

.......

Anyway, I do believe the pressure is excessive, so I am going to back the powder amount to 29gr.

[RC20]

To be clear, if you overheat a case (the entire thing) they are junk.

What NECK annealing does is reset the brass, if done right.

If you heat it too much, it is too soft and will never harden up again but will shoot.

It may work ok, but that is the NECK.

If you do the same to the case, then there is no spring back, ever again, and you have both dangerously soft cases, ie. can blow up, they are junk.

[RC20]

Is that the low listed? At the very least go low.

Not a normal powder for that caliber, makes it suspect even if they have data as you can't cross check a source that does not exist.

[RickD1225]

WH - the Western Powders Reloading and Load Data Guide Edition 6.0 lists that cartridge/bullet/powder at 26.5 start load and 29.4 as max with a COL of 2.19.

[Wildernesshunter]

Guys I have shot over 200 reloads through this gun with A2200 and it has gone well. I actually would have prefered A1680, but I have not been able to find that powder locally in any of my gun shops.

What changed this time was:

1. The Hornady SST 123gr bullet
2. Annealing
3. Case Trim

The previous reloads worked just fine and only showed signs of pressure when I was trying to work a load for the .310, 150gr bullet.

[Jim Watson]

Are we sure they sold you 123 grain bullets? A 150 would be trouble.

Do you have any of the previous bullet?

Do you have any un-annealed brass?

I would ring the changes and try to isolate the source of hard extraction.

[dahermit]

This begs the question: Why would you need to anneal the 7.62x39 brass after only two reloadings?

[Wildernesshunter]

I annealed the brass because I wanted to. First set of brass I have ever done. This afternoon I watched a couple of instructional videos on annealing and I am confident I did it right.

Yes, the bullets are correct. I weighed several of them, just to check.

By the way, if I could have stabilized the 150gr bullets, that's all I would be shooting.....but the top ballistician from Howa corresponded with me and doubted I would ever get the bullets highly accurate and recommended I move to the 123gr bullets.

No, I don't have any brass that isn't annealed and trimmed. I have 120 pieces and I did them all.

I'm just going to dial back the powder load. Going from 31gr to 28-29gr shouldn't cost me much velocity.

[Nvreloader]

WH

Have you slugged the bore diameter of your rifle?
Do you know the bore diameter?

In post #4 you have posted,
"Cases: Winchester
Bullets: Hornady SST 7.62 (.310), 123gr".

Tia,
Don

[Wildernesshunter]

No where does Howa state the bore of the 7.62x39, so I asked via an email to the company, Legacy Sports, a couple months ago. One of their VP's wrote me back and confirmed the barrel is .310.

I asked as I need to confirm before shooting the .311, 150gr bullets.

So yes, it is a .310.....not .308. As you guys probably know, Ruger's Mini30 is actually a .308 barrel.


Wife is at a basketball game tonight, so I slipped out to the reloading bench. I resized, trimmed and loaded the cases that were the issue. I decided to load with 28gr of A2200. I'll try to get to the range in the next 4-5 days and give it a go again.

[dahermit]

I only annealed the necks of the cases.

It would be helpful if you explained your whole annealing process in detail. Like how you kept the heat from conducting down into the body and head area of the cases.

With just the information you have provided, ( there may be factors that you were unaware of, like misreading your scale, and did not post), the logical conclusion is that you screwed up your brass during the annealing process. If it were me, I would consider it a lesson in leaving things alone that you do not understand (or really need to do), and just toss the brass and buy new. Only anneal when the necks begin to crack and/or the brass gets so hard that it "springs back", after sizing and will not hold the bullets.

Note that any fool can produce a "how to" Youtube video and most do. The Videos you watched may have been correct, or done by Bubba who is an "expert" in the metalurgy of handloading inasmuch as he has been doing it a whole three weeks.

To reiterate, there is no reason to ever anneal brass until the symptoms of work-hardening begin to appear.