starting and max loads ?

[rebs]

I have understood that you should never load a less than minimum load and never exceed the max load. But I see some guys load less than minimum loads for target shooting. Is it a safe practice or not to load less than minimum loads ?
I see this mainly with bullseye shooters in competition.

[mrdaputer]

It is my understanding some ppl like to have just enough to cycle the rack. For less recoil. That will vary depending on the fire arm.

[Nvreloader]

It all depends on the cartridge and powder being used,
and it's application or intended use etc.

Bullseye is the powder with the 8th fastest burn rate, of normal US powders,
and is the basic powder used in target shooting, the only drawback of using this powder,
is that it can be double charged very easy, if you don't take reasonable precautions to prevent that.

QL suggests using 75% of the usable case capacity for it's loading tests,
and depending on the firearm used etc.

Tia,
Don

[T. O'Heir]

"...mainly with bullseye shooters in competition..." Highly unlikely any top bullseye shooter is going to risk an expensive target pistol(several grand for some of 'em) by ignoring minimum loads.
Below minimum loads(way below) can be as dangerous as above max loads. Causes weird pressures than can cause the powder to detonate vs burn.
Typical minimum loads are not using a lot of powder to start with. The classic .38 Special target load is 2.5 to 2.8 of Bullseye with a 148 grain cast or swaged WC. Most .45 users aren't shooting a 230 grain bullet either and are using a lighter return spring. Just enough powder to cycle the action with a 200 grain bullet for bullseye shooting. The shooting games have their arbitrary 'power factor' thing(that has nothing to do with reality), but those loads are target loads too.

[David R]

Quick example.

Hercules 1992 reloaders guide suggests 4.0 bullseye for a 200 SWC target load in 45 ACP. I have loaded 3.5 for years. MANY 45 shooters do the same.

The biggest problem with going too low is a stuck bullet in the bore then firing another one behind it causing all kinds of problems.

Using your head, and a chrony will help.

The same manual suggests 2.7 bullseye for a 148 WC, which is what I load. Never had a reason to go lower.

Be careful, have fun.
David

[5whiskey]

It is safe to load under the minimum load in most cases. Especially if you're not trying to halve the minimum load or something crazy. Lot's of people who shoot cast rounds in rifles play with way low loads. There are some exceptions, however...

Below minimum loads(way below) can be as dangerous as above max loads. Causes weird pressures than can cause the powder to detonate vs burn.

This is mostly an issue with very low charges of fast-for-caliber powders in bottleneck rifle cartridges. It is one of the exceptions. Even then, I have heard some theorize that this detonation phenomena is actually the result of a double-charge that can go un-noticed when using charges that fill up a good bit less than 50% of the case capacity. I personally don't buy the "all detonations are double charges" theory, but it exists. That theory, however, does go into my next point...

can be double charged very easy, if you don't take reasonable precautions to prevent that.

QL suggests using 75% of the usable case capacity for it's loading tests,
and depending on the firearm used etc.

This would be a valid argument against using loads that fill up less than half the case capacity. I have some loads like this for handgun, but they are right at half so a double charge brings the powder level to within a couple of hundredths of the case mouth. I seat bullets by hand, so I would have to REALLY be screwing the pooch to not notice that. (One of my reloading controls is to visually observe the powder level when I place the bullet to be seated, anyway). Lastly...

The biggest problem with going too low is a stuck bullet in the bore then firing another one behind it causing all kinds of problems.

I guess this ^could^ be a consideration in a revolver or bolt/lever action rifle, but that would be WAY low and unlikely IMO. In any semi-auto you will experience failure to cycle well before there is a danger of not enough powder to push the bullet out of the barrel.

Another consideration for really low charges, mainly in pistol. Most powder measures have a difficult time measuring charges below a certain level. Almost any powder drop that measures by volume will have a rough time with consistent drops if you try to load less than .3 cubic centimeters of powder.

[jmr40]

For target loads, really any load, you want to fill up the case with powder. Not necessarily to get a lot of speed, but partially full cases allow powder to be in different positions each time a round is fired. This can result in inconsistent ignition and accuracy.

You CAN load for max speed, or by selecting a different powder that will fill up the case still get slower speeds and less recoil if that is the goal.

[Stats Shooter]

Maximum and Minimum loads are suggestions. If you look at a particular powder and bullet combo, the Max and Min can vary within each manual. If you look at the lyman manual which is mostly universal, the manual from the bullet maker (if they have one), and the manual from the powder company, I am willing to bet the minimum and maximum recommended charges are different....at least they are in several of the loads I make and I have about a dozen different reloading manuals.

But generally speaking, it is not good practice to go much above or below the recommended powder charge listed by at least 1 manual. If there is too little powder, as someone already said, it can cause more of a detonation rather than a burn....or at the very least be inconsistent. And obviously if you put in too much powder there is a slew of unsafe issues that can arise.

For hand guns, I only reload for .44 mag, .44 special, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP but in my experience, the powder charge that fills the case the most is both the most smooth, and is unlikely to have a "snappy" recoil which makes it easier for my to hold on target with rapid follow up. In .40 S&W and .44 Mag I use Hodgdon Longshot. Why? because it fills the case and is less snappy than tite group or bullseye while getting good velocity.

just my 2 cents.

[robhic]

Maximum and Minimum loads are suggestions. If you look at a particular powder and bullet combo, the Max and Min can vary within each manual. If you look at the lyman manual which is mostly universal, the manual from the bullet maker (if they have one), and the manual from the powder company, I am willing to bet the minimum and maximum recommended charges are different....at least they are in several of the loads I make and I have about a dozen different reloading manuals.

But generally speaking, it is not good practice to go much above or below the recommended powder charge listed by at least 1 manual.

As a newbie, myself, that is particularly true and a bit of a concern. You certainly DO get different/conflicting data between sources. One book may show (example) 5.0min and 6.0max grains. Then another manual shows same combination but 5.8 as start/min load! That can be a head-scratcher when one source shows almost MAX in one book to be right at MIN in another.

COALs get confusing, too when it can be .10 -.50" difference between sources. I feel like a medieval alchemist learning this stuff!

[Stats Shooter]

. One book may show (example) 5.0min and 6.0max grains. Then another manual shows same combination but 5.8 as start/min load! That can be a head-scratcher when one source shows almost MAX in one book to be right at MIN in another.

It happens with rifles too. Just some observations I have made, the powder companies tend to have higher maximums in their data, and the bullet companies have lower minimums in their manuals....That is why I tend to use Lyman. But sometimes Lyman doesn't have the bullet you are using, or they do not have the powder you want to try, which is why I have bullet maker manuals AND I check the powder websites.

But don't get too worked up about it. Just do a simple ladder test for function. In your case, I might start near the minimum and work down making sure you get proper function and accuracy...But not go below the lowest powder charge in the manual with the lowest.

[jersurf101]

I use Lyman 49 80% of the time and it is my go to manual but they all have inconsistencies and conflicting data. I will cross reference data and usully there is no reason to go below or above someone's published data across the board. As always there are exceptions but I am conscious of my fingers and my face.

[reddog81]

Sticking a bullet is the biggest danger with most handgun rounds. The possibility of a detonation in bottleneck rifle cartridges is a big deterrent for me.

You will run into erratic velocities and problems cycling the slide on light semi-auto handguns before you stick a bullet. I don't consider those to be dangerous but more of a nuisance. It is definitely possible to stick a bullet in a semi auto and then load another round behind the stuck bullet and then blow up your gun which would be dangerous.

For revolvers I try and stick with loads above 600 FPS. Below 600 and the spreads on velocities gets more extreme.

For max loads I will triple check references when there is data that is extremely conflicting.

[Slamfire]

I have understood that you should never load a less than minimum load and never exceed the max load. But I see some guys load less than minimum loads for target shooting. Is it a safe practice or not to load less than minimum loads ?
I see this mainly with bullseye shooters in competition.

I regularly load my 45 ACP loads below recommended levels, such as 3.5 grains Bullseye with a 200 LSWC, for 25 yard rapid fire loads, and 4.0 grains Bullseye with a 200 LSWC for 50 yard loads. These are published loads that I have found in the American Rifleman from the mid 1950's. These load levels are very common with Bullseye shooters so they are very well understood.

Propellants vary by burn rate. Slow burning powders do not do well downloaded, so downloading Blue Dot in 44 Special, 38 Special, 45 L Colt worked, but the extreme velocity spreads were in terms of hundreds of feet per second. This indicates to me that the powder is burning erratically. This could be dangerous as consistent burning produces consistent pressure waves. Powder does not burn like a candle, and the further you get from nice, smooth, pressure waves, the riskier things get. Perturbations in the pressure wave do cause over pressure conditions. In fact, we see this all the time with old deteriorated gunpowder in old surplus ammunition. Lots of guns have blown up with old military surplus ammunition. Pressures increase when powder deteriorates due to "burn rate instability". Basically that means the powder granule is producing unpredictable pressures waves which conflict with the other pressure waves being produced as the propellant burns.

For my autopistols, I can download fast burning powders and as long as the bullet leaves the barrel, and the autopistol functions, things have been OK. One risk with low pressure loads is that occasionally, a bullet does not leave the barrel. I had that happen in cold weather and a weak mainspring and AA#9, a magnum pistol ball powder. I was lucky the bullet lodged between the cylinder and barrel, so it was obvious the bullet had not left the S&W M586. If however, the bullet had been lodged half way up the barrel, who knows what would have happened next round.

I have loaded below recommended levels for a number of rifle cartridges, the 308 Win the cartridge I have most experimented with. I have shot thousands of 168 SMK's with 39 grains IMR 4895. This is below most manuals but it is a very low recoiling load, and very accurate at 200 yards. Another great load is 42.0 grains IMR 4895 with a 168 grain bullet in the 30-06. I would not use either in a gas gun, but both shoot great in a bolt rifle.

I talked to Alliant, and the technicians there told me that with piezo electric pressure gages, they can see the pressure curves, and they make decisions based on what they see. If small component changes cause huge pressure curve changes, they don't recommend those loads. The specific example discussed was the use of Blue Dot in rifle cartridges. A poster named Seafire has been promoting the use of Blue Dot in 223, and other cartridges, others have copied, and it does not take much effort to find rifles that have Kaboomed with Blue Dot loads. Here is one: Catastrophic Failure of Rifle Due To Double Charge of Blue Dot The poor poster thought he double charged the case. These Blue Dot kabooms have occurred frequently enough that it should be obvious that small loads of Blue Dot in rifle cartridges is risky. However, those promoting the practice are adamant that nothing bad has happened to them. Actually they have been lucky, there is no skill involved, just luck, and given enough rounds downrange, their luck will run out. Call it Normalizing Risk. If you watch the movie Deepwater Horizon, you will see lots of risk Normalization, at some point, the luck runs out. Alliant did not recommend any of these Blue Dot loads, warning that the pressure curve changed too quickly with component changes. I have no doubt Alliant has also looked at the pressure curves of many light loads, cartridge case and bullet combinations, and decided to publish based on consistency. The loads that show irregularities have been deleted from their most current reloading manuals.

So, if the manuals are using pressure instrumentation to develop loads, than following their recommendations is the simplest and safest procedure. However there are well characterized loads that don't appear in the manuals, and while there is risk in using them, it seems the risk is small.

Maximum loads are the most dangerous. Reloaders blow up guns all the time with "maximum" loads. Because the slope of the pressure curve is exponential, pressures can zoom up very quickly. Pressure is not your friend. Pressure may give you the performance you want, but is that the performance you need?

[Jim Watson]

There seems to be Internet Confusion between "starting loads" usually an arbitrary 90% of maximum; and "minimum loads" which should not be further reduced.
The fast burning powders used in non-magnum pistol loads don't really have a minimum as long as all bullets clear the barrel. Lyman shows pistol loads well below 90% if you must have a "recipe" for real powder puffs.
You do have to know what you are doing, though. I don't know exactly what horrors await the perpetrator of a reduced load of W296/H110 and I don't plan to test it.

[mikld]

Assuming you are a newer reloader I'll answer your question simply. It depends on the powder and it's application. Some powders can be safely down loaded to the point of the bullet not leaving the barrel (squib). But there are some powders that when downloaded are potentially dangerous. Warnings about less than "minimum" loads of H110/W296 will/can produce "detonations" or extreme high pressures from slow powders in a large capacity cases.

Until yo get a handle on powder "speeds" and applications (I ain't completely there from 30+ rears of reloadin'), just stick with "book loads"...

Go slow, double check everything, and most important, have fun...