Is this Case Separating?

[jackstrawIII]

Another rookie question here:

I just FL resized this 270 Win brass for the first time. It is once fired. I'm getting these lines on some of them, but not all. Cases shouldn't be separating this quickly, right? Is it possible that they're not actually separating, but that this ring is being caused by the die in some way?

I've read both opinions: that this sort of mark indicates a problem, and that it doesn't. Help!

[jackstrawIII]

Also, there is a pic attached. Not sure how to make it visible in my post. Thanks everyone.

[1stmar]

Looks like it. Take a paper clip and bend a hook at the end, then scrape the hook along the inside of the case and see if it catches or drags around the base near that mark.

[PA-Joe]

That looks like where the die stopped sizing. Check it with the paperclip.

[brasscollector]

Did you run them through the sizing die already? If so, that mark would appear to be 'normal'. If you have not ran them through the sizing die then I would do the paper clip test as described above.

[Dave P]

"That looks like where the die stopped sizing."

yeppers

[shootniron]

"That looks like where the die stopped sizing."

yeppers

X 3

Paper clip will confirm, one way or the other.

[jackstrawIII]

Thanks for the input guys. I did the paperclip test and the inside of the case walls are as smooth as can be, all the way down. Guess the cases are good to go.

I'll keep an eye on them as I fire through a few more cycles, but I guess that answers my question.

[243winxb]

Clean brass before sizing, if you didnt.

[JeepHammer]

Clean the brass!
Lube/crud ring where the die stopped sizing.

When you get a pronounced 'Lip' you have issues, I don't see a lip.
The stop line is there on all the brass in your picture, some are darker than others.

[scatterbrain]

Jeephammer, tumbling brass before sizing makes it difficult for me to resize. I have seen that several of you do tumble clean first and wonder about that.
Do you reclean to remove the lubricant? I wipe fired brass off before sizing, or if it is pick up brass I wash in water and dry first, but to tumble first, not going to do that, again.

[Chainsaw.]

What issue did you have with tumbling first? Thats how pretty much eveyone does it. You dont want sand and gunk going into your dies.

Tumble.
Lube.
Size.
Wipe off.
Load.

[JeepHammer]

Everyone does it there way...

I won't put a dirty brass in my dies/processing equipment.
Too hard on the dies, etc.

Wet tumble before working, spotless clean inside & out.
Work the brass with reasonable lube,
Dry tumble/polish when they are loaded.

[Metal god]

Yeah it looks like lube marks from sizing from where the die stops . Here are some cases with one to the point of cracking and separating and the others well on there way there .



Notice the difference in the line on my cases compared to yours ?

[JeepHammer]

MG,
I do the same thing, neck crush when I find a defect.
The junk man don't care when I sell yellow brass..

Outstanding! Makes SURE it doesn't leak back into useage!

I'd say you put some miles on those cases!

[F. Guffey]

I just FL resized this 270 Win brass for the first time. It is once fired. I'm getting these lines on some of them, but not all. Cases shouldn't be separating this quickly, right? Is it possible that they're not actually separating, but that this ring is being caused by the die in some way?

You just resized your brass and then noticed ring abound the case? I believe I would have noticed the ring before sizing if it existed when fired for the first time. And then there are rifles with different designs.

And as always there are different methods and techniques; many reloaders can talk this to death, not me. If I was concerned with case head separation/insipient case head separation I would run the case into the sizing die without lube. Before I confuse anyone I will take the time to explain; raising the ram on a case without lube will stick the case in the die. When the ram is lowered the case will remain stuck (and then), if the case head is separating it should not be a problem pulling the case apart.

I am sure you listed the information on the case head and make and model of the rifle.

F. Guffey

[Longshot4]

Yea they are witness marks where the die stopped sizing. The lube ring is normal. No problem

In that case we get stretching along with thinning of the case as metal god shows in his picture.
The stretching of the cases from metal god's picture are from excess head space I believe. What happens is the head stays against the bolt face and the shoulder of the case is driven to the shoulder of the chamber when the cartridge is fired. If the gap is more than 0.002-3K That's where the case will stretch and if continues case will separate. That's where you want to just bump the shoulder 0.002-3K when Full Length sizing.

It took me many years to eventually understand it all. That is if I do.

I'm open for comment's. After all the Firing line is the best communications I now of on the subject.

[jackstrawIII]

Thanks for all the comments, quick follow up question:

How does one "bump the shoulder"? From what I can tell, the FL sizing die isn't adjustable. Meaning, as long as you run the case all the way through, there shouldn't be a way to adjust where the shoulder is place. Right?

[F. Guffey]

In that case we get stretching along with thinning of the case as metal god shows in his picture.
The stretching of the cases from metal god's picture are from excess head space I believe. What happens is the head stays against the bolt face and the shoulder of the case is driven to the shoulder of the chamber when the cartridge is fired. If the gap is more than 0.002-3K That's where the case will stretch and if continues case will separate. That's where you want to just bump the shoulder 0.002-3K when Full Length sizing.

Longshot, I test the content of a mans character by disagreeing with him. When it comes to content of character we all could take lessons from Unclenick.

excess head space I believe.

I like that as in "I believe", that means I am allowed to disagree, there was a time the forums had a saying; it started out by claiming the firing pin drove the case to the front of the chamber. The case included the bullet, powder and case. I always asked how can that happen because I have killer firing pins. It was not long after that there was a claim the case shortened .005" from the shoulder of the case to the case head by the impact of the firing pin and again I said "Life is not fair, I have killer firing pins and my cases do not shortend in length between the shoulder to the case head even when there is a failure to fire. I tested 5 failure to fire rounds that had been chambered in 3 different rifles and the primers were hit at least 5 times without firing, when rounds from the same box were compared to the fail to fire rounds the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head was the same.

POINT!? If the case shortened when the firing pin struck the primer there is nothing a reloader can do to prevent case head separation because the claim made insist the case shortened .005". By design and before the reloader gets involved we start with .005" difference in length between the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face and from the shoulder of the case to the case head.

For those that are keeping up the case went from minimum length to .010" shorter than the chamber when measuring from the 'usual places'. OR the same as firing a minimum length/full length sized case in a no go-gage length chamber.

F. Guffey

[Longshot4]

So correct me if you see fit.

If I place a .003 shim between the shell holder and the case when FL sizing. Won't I have a .002 bump? Of course to check I would try chambering the cartridge case to see if the bolt closes easily. If the chamber is too tight or not bumped the bolt would give résistance when trying to close.

Unclenick has my vote as way above us. I even understand him more often than some others. And for you mister Guffey I always welcome your input but though it is often over my head. Although it also seams at times that you try to complicate or try not to make it simple.

The Firing line is still my favorite loading source.

[Metal god]

How does one "bump the shoulder"? From what I can tell, the FL sizing die isn't adjustable. Meaning, as long as you run the case all the way through, there shouldn't be a way to adjust where the shoulder is place. Right?

No , it's infinitely adjustable . Just screw it in or out and you have adjusted how much it sizes the case .

I'd help more but I see Guffey or as I think of him "confuser in chief" is posting here . So there's no reason to try and help more because you'll just get more confused by the time this gets closed .

[F. Guffey]

No , it's infinitely adjustable . Just screw it in or out and you have adjusted how much it sizes the case .

reloaders assume the die is infinitely adjustable, that is most assume, I don't because I am the one that understands the case can have more resistance to sizing than the press, die and shell holder can overcome. And then there is the case whipping the press, I am the one that insist on knowing 'by how much'; again I use the feeler gage when determining if the shell holder made it to the die. If the shell holder does not make it to the die anything protruding from the die did not get sized.

After that there is the distance from the shoulder of the die to the deck of the shell holder; There are at least three ways to determine the ability of the die and shell holder to return a case to minimum length. Most reloaders had rather assume and or make up scary old stories about manufacturing being irresponsible when making die and shell holders. My shell holders have a deck height of .125". My shell holders that do not have a deck height of .125" are special shell holders. I ca turn all of my shell holders into special shell holders with a feeler gage.

And then there are grinders, if it don't fit grind it; grind the top of the shell holder or base of the die. I am the only one with a precision grinder that grinds tapers, angles and stock to length; I have never used it to grind a die and or shell holder.

I'd help more but I see Guffey or as I think of him "confuser in chief" is posting here . So there's no reason to try and help more because you'll just get more confused by the time this gets closed .

Again and again I ask: What is it that you do not understand about the shoulder when sizing and firing?

What happens is the head stays against the bolt face and the shoulder of the case is driven to the shoulder of the chamber when the cartridge is fired.

Longshot4 is having trouble with understanding what happens when the trigger is pulled. Reloaders are infatuated with head space and moving the shoulder of the case; and I ask "how do you do that?" and all I get in return is lip service.

I have said there is something about the sequence of events that take place after the trigger is pulled reloaders do not understand. Longshot4 said the head of the case was against the bolt face and the shoulder moved forward and I ask; "How can that be, how is that possible? Those that do not know and or understand continue with the lip service and those that do not understand simply say; "I do not know?".

I would think with all the reloaders that claim they have master shooters on speed dial would call an expert. Something like the reloader that called SAAMI and told on me, anyhow, the case does not have head space.

F. Guffey

[F. Guffey]

And then there is the 'make your own annealer'. Had I not known there is nothing new about induction heating I would believe, reloaders, thought it was invented/developed last year. I used one to heat metal bar when operating a trip hammer, that heater had to have been made in1910 + or - a few years.Anyhow, I read through 6 pages of 'how to make an annealer' and got an appetency for a new way to use old tools with a timer that cost nothing.

F. Guffey

[Longshot4]

This is getting very complex Mr.Guffey. When I asked you to correct me if you see fit. I was wrong to assume you would give a better description of how the head spacing stretches the case in detail of the firing of the round. Not how your heavy firing pin doesn't cause case separation. Here we go again.

Correct me if I'm wrong. But don't get off track. I get confused easy.

If the case is FL sized to a length less than the distance from the bolt when closed too the chamber shoulder or is it datum? "In a 308" The case is expanded do to the pressure of the powder charge in all directions. It's stretched out to the chamber walls, back to the bolt face and forward to the chamber shoulder that acts as a gas check and the neck to the chamber neck walls. So if you resize the case to a shorter length. It will stretch to a longer length. That is what causes (Metal God) to give us a fine picture for reference.

[RC20]

What issue did you have with tumbling first? Thats how pretty much eveyone does it. You dont want sand and gunk going into your dies.

Its a waste of time and it makes lubing harder.

I don't dump my cases into the sand, I pick them up after eject and put them in the box. They are as clean as I am.

After sizing I put them in the vibratory machine and it cleans it all up.

One stop cleaning.

And no I don't have case scratches .

If it was so bad as to need tumbling in the first place its too gross to use.

And pray tell do you clean all that sand and crud out of your tumbler and of you brass before you resizes. Microscopic stuff is on the case so you have to wipe or air blast it off.

Of course you have to be sure the towel is clean.