Norma USA 223?

Marco Califo · September 5, 2016, 04:02 PM

Midsouth Shooters has Norma USA 223 loaded ammo 55 FMJ for $7.99 for box of 20. Thats $39.95 for 100. Are they really Norma brass?? If so they are cheaper than unloaded new Norma brass which they have for $59.13 per 100.
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.c...-fmj-20-rounds

smarquez · September 5, 2016, 05:16 PM

That's a steal if it is boxer primed.
Cabelas has it for the same price but use 6tenoff code for 10% off and free shipping.

Marco Califo · September 5, 2016, 07:23 PM

Cabelas is a better deal. $7.49 per 20. Also, Cabelas has a picture of 308 Norma USA headstamp that reads Norma 308. The 223 and 308 are advertised together, but the 308 is not on sale ($29.99 for 20).

Marco Califo · November 6, 2016, 04:47 PM

The headlamps do say Norma (not stamped as deeply as LC). It is 3 stake crimped.

**Unclenick** · November 6, 2016, 04:59 PM

In 2010 Norma's main European competition, Lapua, had both blue box and brown box ammo, the former being made using 75:25 copper:zinc "low" brass cases (close to Federal's composition), while the latter used something closer to 60:40 Muntz metal, with less of the expensive copper and more zinc, resulting in poorer malleability and thus being more prone to work hardening and splitting. I don't know if Norma does that same thing with their bargain ammo or not, so I would email them and ask about suitability for reloading.

Marco Califo · November 7, 2016, 12:20 AM

I emailed them (http://www.norma-usa.com/index.php/s...hnical-support) the question of "Is the loaded ammo brass the exact same brass as they sell as a reloading component."
The box says match quality, and there is no mention of more than one product grade that I could find @ http://www.norma-usa.com/index.php/products

Marco Califo · November 8, 2016, 04:21 PM

I will post details 12 hours from now, but going forward all Norma [223] brass is now made in Switzerland and has lazer etched, rather than stamped, headstamps. Still open is the question of composition. I sent a follow-up email about that. The stamped Swedish brass is still in channels, but will be no more.
==========================
I posted Norma's response as a new thread because it states that all Norma [223] brass will now be made in Switzerland, and not Sweden. The headstamps are now etched, indicating Swiss. Unknown brass composition, but I did ask that too.

Marco Califo · November 9, 2016, 11:54 AM

"Below you will find the response I received from our factory.

The brass cups used for producing the 223 Rem brass in Sweden had a composition of approx. 72% Cu / 28% Zn.

For the Swiss 223 Rem - brass cups with approx. 70% Cu / 30% Zn are used.
Please note that it is only our 223 brass for reloading that is being produced in Switzerland. All of our other brass remains produced in Sweden and will continue to be."

I responded: "Thank you. I think having 2 different kinds of Norma brass, without clear packaging and open disclosure, is unwise. I will not buy Swiss 223, if I want real Norma brass. You are polluting your branding quality, and now Norma does not mean Norma."

Marco Califo · November 9, 2016, 03:47 PM

"We appreciate your feedback and I will be sure to pass along your concerns. The Swiss factory is a RUAG facility. RUAG owns Norma along with a few other premium ammunition brands, such as RWS in Germany. Thank you again for contacting us and for your input. Please let us know if we can be of further assistance."

I do not have an opinion about the RUAG brass, nor ammo. But as a matter of fact, it is NOT the same thing as Swedish made Norma with the deeply stamped Norma headstamps. Buyers of Norma USA TAC223 should be aware of this because the packaging and product descriptions do not tell you this. I think a different color box or some other info would have been better disclosure.
Real Norma brass continues to be made in Sweden for all other calibers per Norma USA above.

mete · November 9, 2016, 05:34 PM

Quality standards count , not where it's made .
Real Norma ammo was made in Norway where the company started ! !
Why the difference in composition ? One better for full auto ?

**Unclenick** · November 10, 2016, 11:08 PM

I've noticed a lot of commercial brass has more copper and less zinc than traditional cartridge brass. The article discusses some. I'm not sure of the reason, but suspect it's easier to form and lets the tooling last longer. Perhaps it forms in fewer steps. It usually seems a little softer, especially Federal, but that has as much to do with what points in the drawing steps they do a full anneal for the next drawing step as anything else. Remington is also "low brass" but I haven't felt it was particularly soft.

It had occurred to me before that being a little softer might help accuracy by inflating to self-center and settling a little earlier in the powder burn timing, but that's just speculation on my part. Federal claims to have changed the brass in Mk 316 mod 0 sniper ammo from standard military brass based on things they'd learned about brass making match ammo that improved accuracy. I just don't know if hardness is one of those factors or not. I do, however, suspect that real 70:30 cartridge brass is tougher for rapid extraction.

Marco Califo · November 15, 2016, 01:24 AM

I submitted a product review for Norma TAC223 ammo on Cabela's, where I bought a few hundred rounds of this ammo. My intent was something of a public service announcement. I am not trying to return the product. I still think it is the cheapest big name 223 available. That big name happens to be RUAG, which is not what the box says. Curiously, the box says many things in many languages. But it does not say "Made in Sweden", nor "Made in Switzerland", nor made in USA. My "review" was not posted and has become [Incident: 161114-000841]
Cabela's customer service expressed concern for my dissatisfaction, and responded that yes, it was Norma brass. And, that they were escalating to Cabela's headquarters for investigation. I just sent them my complete Norma USA email exchange. I think I hit a nerve.

Good for Cabela's if they rip Norma USA a new one.

Marco Califo · November 16, 2016, 10:07 PM

No further response from Cabelas yet, but my review, with the facts, is up on Midsouth's product page. I salute Midsouth for allowing the truth!

Midway boasts about the quality of the NORMA brass for this ammo.

I need to write to them, too.

https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.c...-fmj-20-rounds

Update: One day later Midsouth removed my review. Sales trumps honest facts.

Marco Califo · November 22, 2016, 06:00 PM

Despite Norma USA'a admission that this is a RUAG product, I have not gotten any meaningful response from Cabelas, Midway, nor Midsouth Shooters Supply. My reviews were removed. I got no response to my pointing out their mis-representing the product as real Norma brass. The Norma name is good for sales. No matter the truth, that it isn't.

The photo shows the Norma etched RUAG headstamps. I could barely see the etching with my naked eye. Whereas I can read LC easily. The photo, taken in bright sunlight shows the markings more clearly. I did not have any Swede Norma headstamp to compare.

Thanks to the 600, now 700, plus viewers of this thread. I kept updating it because someone was reading it.

overthere · November 23, 2016, 09:24 PM

Marco, is your concern that RUAG brass is no good? I have no experience with it myself but if it is good brass (if it is), does it matter if it is made in Sweden or Switzerland?

I noticed in post 8, where you include the answer you received from the factory, that reply said:

"Please note that it is only our 223 brass for reloading that is being produced in Switzerland. All of our other brass remains produced in Sweden and will continue to be."

Since brass used for factory ammo is not produced for reloading would it therefore fall into the 'All of our other brass remains produced in Sweden and will continue to be' category? If so the brass in the factory ammo should be of your preferred Swedish manufacture.

Marco Califo · November 23, 2016, 10:20 PM

I believe it is excellent ammo and brass. The concern I have is that it is falsely marketed as Norma brass, which it is not.
Midway claims this is the famous Norma brass (used in this ammo), etc. It is not. It is RUAG brass marketed as being "Norma", when it is made by RUAG and packaged as Norma USA ammo. It is like selling someone a Porsche, then delivering a Volkswagon.

This is the first response from Norma USA. I had posted it in a different thread, but apparently not in this one. This email below is the "smoking gun" where Norma USA admits TAC 223 is not made with real Norma brass (from Sweden), which costs so much, and is top quality. RUAG brass is also a different composition than Swede Norma.

Quote:

Kelly Bramblett <[email protected]>
Nov 8 (6 days ago)
Mr. XXXX,
Thank you for your inquiry. The answer to your question is both yes and no. Our TAC 223 is loaded in Switzerland with Swiss produced brass. Our brass for reloading is now manufactured there as well, however previously it was produced in Sweden with Swedish produced brass, which is still circulating in the US. Both locations produce top notch quality brass. The way to differentiate between the two is with the headstamp, the Swiss headstamp is laser etched on and the Swedish headstamp is the deeper imprinted headstamp. Our TAC 223 is reloadable, however it does have small crimps on the primer. Please let us know if we can be of further assistance to you.
Have a great day!

Sincerely,

Kelly Bramblett
Dealer Support
Norma USA
931-368-5015
[email protected]
www.norma-usa.com"

September 5, 2016, 04:02 PM	#1
Marco Califo Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2011 Location: LA (Greater Los Angeles Area) Posts: 2,722	Norma USA 223? Midsouth Shooters has Norma USA 223 loaded ammo 55 FMJ for $7.99 for box of 20. Thats $39.95 for 100. Are they really Norma brass?? If so they are cheaper than unloaded new Norma brass which they have for $59.13 per 100. https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.c...-fmj-20-rounds __________________ ............

September 5, 2016, 05:16 PM	#2
smarquez Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2011 Posts: 135	That's a steal if it is boxer primed. Cabelas has it for the same price but use 6tenoff code for 10% off and free shipping. Last edited by smarquez; September 5, 2016 at 05:39 PM.

September 5, 2016, 07:23 PM	#3
Marco Califo Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2011 Location: LA (Greater Los Angeles Area) Posts: 2,722	Cabelas is a better deal. $7.49 per 20. Also, Cabelas has a picture of 308 Norma USA headstamp that reads Norma 308. The 223 and 308 are advertised together, but the 308 is not on sale ($29.99 for 20). __________________ ............

November 6, 2016, 04:47 PM	#4
Marco Califo Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2011 Location: LA (Greater Los Angeles Area) Posts: 2,722	The headlamps do say Norma (not stamped as deeply as LC). It is 3 stake crimped. __________________ ............

November 6, 2016, 04:59 PM	#5
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,743	In 2010 Norma's main European competition, Lapua, had both blue box and brown box ammo, the former being made using 75:25 copper:zinc "low" brass cases (close to Federal's composition), while the latter used something closer to 60:40 Muntz metal, with less of the expensive copper and more zinc, resulting in poorer malleability and thus being more prone to work hardening and splitting. I don't know if Norma does that same thing with their bargain ammo or not, so I would email them and ask about suitability for reloading. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

November 7, 2016, 12:20 AM	#6
Marco Califo Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2011 Location: LA (Greater Los Angeles Area) Posts: 2,722	I emailed them (http://www.norma-usa.com/index.php/s...hnical-support) the question of "Is the loaded ammo brass the exact same brass as they sell as a reloading component." The box says match quality, and there is no mention of more than one product grade that I could find @ http://www.norma-usa.com/index.php/products __________________ ............ Last edited by Marco Califo; November 7, 2016 at 12:36 AM.

November 8, 2016, 04:21 PM	#7
Marco Califo Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2011 Location: LA (Greater Los Angeles Area) Posts: 2,722	I will post details 12 hours from now, but going forward all Norma [223] brass is now made in Switzerland and has lazer etched, rather than stamped, headstamps. Still open is the question of composition. I sent a follow-up email about that. The stamped Swedish brass is still in channels, but will be no more. ========================== I posted Norma's response as a new thread because it states that all Norma [223] brass will now be made in Switzerland, and not Sweden. The headstamps are now etched, indicating Swiss. Unknown brass composition, but I did ask that too. __________________ ............ Last edited by Marco Califo; November 10, 2016 at 02:11 AM. Reason: Only applies to 223

November 9, 2016, 11:54 AM	#8
Marco Califo Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2011 Location: LA (Greater Los Angeles Area) Posts: 2,722	Norma Swiss 223 IS different "Below you will find the response I received from our factory. The brass cups used for producing the 223 Rem brass in Sweden had a composition of approx. 72% Cu / 28% Zn. For the Swiss 223 Rem - brass cups with approx. 70% Cu / 30% Zn are used. Please note that it is only our 223 brass for reloading that is being produced in Switzerland. All of our other brass remains produced in Sweden and will continue to be." I responded: "Thank you. I think having 2 different kinds of Norma brass, without clear packaging and open disclosure, is unwise. I will not buy Swiss 223, if I want real Norma brass. You are polluting your branding quality, and now Norma does not mean Norma." __________________ ............ Last edited by Marco Califo; November 11, 2016 at 01:34 AM.

November 9, 2016, 03:47 PM	#9
Marco Califo Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2011 Location: LA (Greater Los Angeles Area) Posts: 2,722	"Norma" Swiss 223 is made by RUAG "We appreciate your feedback and I will be sure to pass along your concerns. The Swiss factory is a RUAG facility. RUAG owns Norma along with a few other premium ammunition brands, such as RWS in Germany. Thank you again for contacting us and for your input. Please let us know if we can be of further assistance." I do not have an opinion about the RUAG brass, nor ammo. But as a matter of fact, it is NOT the same thing as Swedish made Norma with the deeply stamped Norma headstamps. Buyers of Norma USA TAC223 should be aware of this because the packaging and product descriptions do not tell you this. I think a different color box or some other info would have been better disclosure. Real Norma brass continues to be made in Sweden for all other calibers per Norma USA above. __________________ ............ Last edited by Marco Califo; November 10, 2016 at 02:13 AM.

November 9, 2016, 05:34 PM	#10
mete Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: NY State Posts: 6,575	Quality standards count , not where it's made . Real Norma ammo was made in Norway where the company started ! ! Why the difference in composition ? One better for full auto ?

November 10, 2016, 11:08 PM	#11
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,743	I've noticed a lot of commercial brass has more copper and less zinc than traditional cartridge brass. The article discusses some. I'm not sure of the reason, but suspect it's easier to form and lets the tooling last longer. Perhaps it forms in fewer steps. It usually seems a little softer, especially Federal, but that has as much to do with what points in the drawing steps they do a full anneal for the next drawing step as anything else. Remington is also "low brass" but I haven't felt it was particularly soft. It had occurred to me before that being a little softer might help accuracy by inflating to self-center and settling a little earlier in the powder burn timing, but that's just speculation on my part. Federal claims to have changed the brass in Mk 316 mod 0 sniper ammo from standard military brass based on things they'd learned about brass making match ammo that improved accuracy. I just don't know if hardness is one of those factors or not. I do, however, suspect that real 70:30 cartridge brass is tougher for rapid extraction. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

November 15, 2016, 01:24 AM	#12
Marco Califo Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2011 Location: LA (Greater Los Angeles Area) Posts: 2,722	I submitted a product review for Norma TAC223 ammo on Cabela's, where I bought a few hundred rounds of this ammo. My intent was something of a public service announcement. I am not trying to return the product. I still think it is the cheapest big name 223 available. That big name happens to be RUAG, which is not what the box says. Curiously, the box says many things in many languages. But it does not say "Made in Sweden", nor "Made in Switzerland", nor made in USA. My "review" was not posted and has become [Incident: 161114-000841] Cabela's customer service expressed concern for my dissatisfaction, and responded that yes, it was Norma brass. And, that they were escalating to Cabela's headquarters for investigation. I just sent them my complete Norma USA email exchange. I think I hit a nerve. Good for Cabela's if they rip Norma USA a new one. __________________ ............

November 16, 2016, 10:07 PM	#13
Marco Califo Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2011 Location: LA (Greater Los Angeles Area) Posts: 2,722	No further response from Cabelas yet, but my review, with the facts, is up on Midsouth's product page. I salute Midsouth for allowing the truth! Midway boasts about the quality of the NORMA brass for this ammo. I need to write to them, too. https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.c...-fmj-20-rounds Update: One day later Midsouth removed my review. Sales trumps honest facts. __________________ ............ Last edited by Marco Califo; November 20, 2016 at 10:10 AM. Reason: Update

November 23, 2016, 09:24 PM	#15
overthere Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2012 Posts: 290	Marco, is your concern that RUAG brass is no good? I have no experience with it myself but if it is good brass (if it is), does it matter if it is made in Sweden or Switzerland? I noticed in post 8, where you include the answer you received from the factory, that reply said: "Please note that it is only our 223 brass for reloading that is being produced in Switzerland. All of our other brass remains produced in Sweden and will continue to be." Since brass used for factory ammo is not produced for reloading would it therefore fall into the 'All of our other brass remains produced in Sweden and will continue to be' category? If so the brass in the factory ammo should be of your preferred Swedish manufacture.