Sierra matchkings

Tlewis81 · September 10, 2016, 08:04 PM

I know sierra says dont hunt with them and honestly with ghe accuracy of.their gamekings i wouldnt but has anyone ever shot any big game with them say a deer or bear? What were the results

briandg · September 10, 2016, 08:21 PM

These things have a hollow cavity up front. the jackets are very thin. When that hollow cavity strikes, it's going to pop the jacket open wide. The jacket will immediately peel. then, the core will be all that's left, and it will break up. This is absolutely the worst hunting round possible, unless you want explosive fragmentation.

You want a solid bullet with heavy jacket designed to hold together and hold core to gether. Look at the other lines.

Don't make the assumption that the came king will be innacurate and that the match king will be far more accurate. It may be nothing more than 1/4 moa for a typiclal hunting rifle, or there may be no advantage at all.

briandg · September 10, 2016, 08:23 PM

I realize that you didn't ask what I answered. Those things will probably fail miserably on a large game animal like a bear. it's going to tear apart and probably not penetrate.

shootbrownelk · September 10, 2016, 08:53 PM

Sierra's GameKing and Pro Hunter bullets are made for hunting. MatchKings are for punching holes in paper. Use the right tool for the job at hand. Similar accuracy, similar price.

Tlewis81 · September 10, 2016, 09:47 PM

Didnt say i was gonna just wanted to see if anyone had....im sure somebody has....i love the gamekings....not thinking about it either just wondering

briandg · September 10, 2016, 10:15 PM

You've pretty much got the answer. I can't claim to have done it, but that's what will happen. It's going to break up and it won't penetrate or mushroom very much. the jacket is going to peel off and there will be nothing but a weak lead core that will have hit at well over 2,000 fps. The soft lead core is going to break up as it expands since there will be no jacket to support the mushroom. This is what will happen when it hits heavy tissues.

Keep in mind that this is the very same design that is used in varmint hunting.

briandg · September 10, 2016, 10:23 PM

{Edit to remove copyrighted material. Please read the board policy on posting copyrighted materials.}

From the firearm blog

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...%E2%89%A0-jhp/

mehavey · September 11, 2016, 08:27 AM

I had one blow up (mule deer #1). I had one pencil straight through (mule deer #2). That was 1973.

There was no deer #3.

Clark · September 11, 2016, 10:13 AM

There was a reloading forum 15 years ago [now a ghost town] that had a thread on hunting with match kings. It went on for over 100 pages. It went on for years. I did not have a dog in the fight, but I could see the two points of view were not going to resolve.

The argument over my Nosler ballistic tips vs my hunting buddy's partitions does not resolve.

Before there were www gun forums, there was rec.guns in the early 1990s. I could see that terminal ballistics questions do not resolve. Posters had their own anecdotes, and others pointed to larger bodies of data like .. Strasbourg goat tests, and the Marshall and Sanow... but it never resolved.

I think the problems with resolving terminal ballistics in a forum situation is: 1) that there are too many out of control variables that are more dominant than the variable under test. 2) People believe what they want to believe.

**Unclenick** · September 11, 2016, 12:01 PM

I know the Berger target VLDs became popular for long range hunting, but I think "long range" is key. The impact then occurs after traveling far enough to have lost some velocity and to have long since gone to sleep (by which I mean settled out of initial yaw; takes about 200 yards, typically). These factors greatly reduces the chance of tumbling in the game as well as reducing the impact stresses on the bullet. I expect this goes a long way toward explaining the discrepancies in personal experiences hunting with match bullets.

Since MatchKings are built into our military's 7.62 sniper round (Mk 316; 175 grain SMK) and 5.56 (Mk 262; both 77 grain SMK and 77 grain Nosler match used), they are clearly perfectly capable of lethality. But in warfare the fastest stop rather than the most humane is critical to keeping your own people alive, and obviously the meat hunter's concern with avoiding bloodshot meat is absent.

Slamfire · September 11, 2016, 01:51 PM

I have talked to people who have used SMK's on deer and the bullets were lethal. I do not agree with using these bullets as I have had a core separate from the jacket, with Norma hunting ammunition, and was lucky the core continued up the deer and killed it. I have known others who hunted much bigger game than 90 lb deer, and one who was using a 308 Win, told me of a bad experience where one brand of bullets blew up on the hide of an elk. That particular hunter changed brands and found a bullet that would reliably penetrate and expand. No more injured and suffering elk.

If the manufacturer does not recommend these for hunting that is probably a good reason not to use them. I think people use them because they confuse the accuracy of the bullet with lethality. Hunting bullets today, the better ones, are very accurate, in fact I am surprised on how well they group, and they are designed to provide expansion and penetration. Target bullets are simply designed to go in one hole.

briandg · September 11, 2016, 07:00 PM

If one follows this link, there is a gelatiin test that showed the gelatin tests of a 77 grain .223 round. They had to have melted it down through a screen. Inch by inch, it showed that the bullet turned into literal dust with a little chunk at the far end.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...%E2%89%A0-jhp/

They list the match king as generally not appropriate for hunting. They list them as being thin jackets, and they will either, depending on bullet, disintegrate, not expand at all, or remain intact, depending on bullet and appication

The key to understanding it is that the HP matchking is not a solid design.

To create a very effective ballistic coefficent, the bullets are lenthened beyond the norm. They have a rather large open cavinty beyond the core. Jackets are very thin, intendiing to give perfect jacket concentricity. when this bullet strikes, that empty piece of jacket collapses immediately, then it is dragged off of they core. The soft core is unprotecthed and mushroom is not supported. at high velocity, this core and jacket just tear apart as the pieces are exposed. The jacket will be entirely stripped, and the lead will fragment until it reaches around sub sonic ranges and the ead manages to hold together.

Over 3K fps? there is nothing to hold it together and it will fragment competely. 2Kor under? The jacket will still tear off as it exposes itselfm with nothing to hold that thin jaket to the lead, and it will be exposed as soom as the tip breaks down. Then, it's going to behoave much as a soft lead bullet will do. It may retain it's shape, punching through like a long solid lead bullet deforming or breaking up, all depending on the bullet weight, velocity, material impacted, etc.

The photo at that blog shows a varmint style match king when it hit gel. A magnum rifle at short range witll act similarly. a standard round will perform better at lower veloities.

You an get blowups with anything. these aren't intended to hold together, and normally wont. They are meant to be accurate and that isn't usualy consistent with hunting terminal ballistics.

Sierra has apage

https://www.sierrabullets.com/store/...HPBT-MatchKing

I hate to harp on this, but it is a pretty much open and shut case thatan accurate bullet intended for hunting will perform as well or slightly less well as the match king within realistikm maybe out to 300 yards or more, and will give far better performance iin terrminal ballistics.

NoSecondBest · September 11, 2016, 07:40 PM

Quote:

has anyone ever shot any big game with them say a deer or bear?

I don't see where your question was answered by anyone who read the question. I believe you were looking for real experiences, not "my buddy said" answers. I call it R&R expertise......Read and Regurgitate. I'll share my actual experience using these bullets IN THE REAL WORLD. Many years ago I used to shoot a lot of woodchucks and was an accuracy freak with my rifles. I used the Match Kings and killed many, many woodchucks with the. I used to hunt with flat shooting centerfire rifles back in those days before I moved exclusively to handgun hunting (and archery). I shot three deer that I can recall with those bullets and they shot completely through the deer on broadside shots and left a very large exit wound. The deer only moved a few yards and piled up. Yes, they can be very effective bullets. However, I did not attempt to penetrate bone with those bullets, nor did I take any angular shots that required deep penetration. Deer should be classified as medium sized game with few exceptions. Even the big ones aren't really a big animal. They're thin skinned and easily killed with a well placed shot. There are better constructed bullets available for hunting. My answer doesn't compare the different bullets, just my results.

603Country · September 11, 2016, 07:53 PM

I wouldn't have a problem coyote hunting with match type bullets, but as sure as the sun shines, here would come a big hog. That happens often enough that I finally parked the 220 and moved to my 260.

I'm with Clark. If you want to hunt with an accurate game bullet, use Nosler Ballistic Tips.

Stats Shooter · September 11, 2016, 08:37 PM

I posted a load recipe recently below called Ruger SR 762....i used a 165 gr game king. The load is .67 moa at 2694 fps...that's out of a 16.12" barrel. My point is, with that kind of performance, why would you even want to try using a paper puncher hunting?
A well placed shot like head or neck would likely kill anything.... except maybe bears who have thick skulls, and hogs.

Tlewis81 · September 11, 2016, 08:40 PM

Lol i love all input anyone ever whacked a coyote with one....i hunt with gamekings and nosler ballistics deer hunt hunt that is and have no accuracy complaints just simply asking a question

Stats Shooter · September 11, 2016, 08:43 PM

Good point.....i have shot coons and Arkansa'd a pheasant with a match bullet....but nothing beyond that.

bedlamite · September 11, 2016, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mehavey

I had one blow up (mule deer #1). I had one pencil straight through (mule deer #2). That was 1973.

There was no deer #3.

I had the same experience with both Gamekings and ProHunters. If I want the meat I use Nosler Accubond. If I just want it dead, Hornady SST.

Dufus · September 11, 2016, 09:29 PM

I used to use the Sierra bullets exclusively back in the 60s & 70s and then I saw the light. My Dad lost 4 solidly hit deer in succession with what is now called the Match King. Range was 80-160 yards. AND, it was classified a hunting bullet.

After making a discovery, neither of us has shot a Sierra bullet since.

For the record, no deer was lost and all were one shot kills from 1976 until 2008 when he had to stop hunting. And, with another brand of bullet.

jmr40 · September 11, 2016, 10:30 PM

No personal experience, but based on 10+ years of being active in several hunting related forums this is what I gather from others who have done so. There are quite a few guys who hunt large game with match bullets. It appears that the Sierra's are the least consistent. Some guys have reported success, but many more have reported less than satisfactory performance.

Berger's on the other hand seem to get a lot more praise, with some criticism. The success many had with their match bullets prompted Berger to build a bullet designed for hunting. Supposedly the same bullet with a thinner jacket for more consistent expansion. Many claim it is no better or worse than the match bullets and it is just marketing to sell to hunters.

The problem with some match bullets is that they fragment on contact. The difference with Bergers is that they act like a FMJ for the first 4-6" giving enough penetration to reach vitals on a broadside shot before basically exploding. Reports are that with a good hit game drops faster than basically any other rounds. The disadvantage is poor penetration on shots from bad angles. As long as shots are chosen carefully they seem work great. They are a great choice for long range work since they still expand at slower speeds. But still do the same thing at close range. The only negatives I come across are from guys who tried to take shots on elk size game from bad angles.

Another full blown target bullet that lots of hunters use is the Scenar. It is not designed or marketed for hunting, but I've seen the photos of enough dead animals to say it works. I've never read of a single negative report on this round when used on game.

I've loaded 155 and 168 Berger hunting bullets for my 308 with excellent accuracy, but haven't put one into an animal yet.

T. O'Heir · September 12, 2016, 01:50 PM

Matchkings have a thin jacket that is not designed to expand upon impact. They're not designed for hunting anything but varmints. Shoot a deer or bear with one and you'll just drill a wee hole with little or no expansion.

Tlewis81 · September 12, 2016, 03:00 PM

Dufus....i pmed u sir thank you

Stats Shooter · September 12, 2016, 11:10 PM

Well, all I can say is, I'm going moose hunting next fall with my brother and father, and I'm going to either use my trusty Nosler Accubonds, or my ol' trusty partition in my .300 win mag. I have never fired more than once on deer and hogs using either of those bullets and on both elk I have shot they were DRT. 200 grain bullets at 2950 fps. The partition hits like a big hammer, but the Accubonds have better ballistics and are about as effective.

September 10, 2016, 10:23 PM	#7
briandg Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2010 Posts: 5,468	{Edit to remove copyrighted material. Please read the board policy on posting copyrighted materials.} From the firearm blog http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...%E2%89%A0-jhp/ Last edited by Unclenick; September 11, 2016 at 11:44 AM. Reason: Remove copyrighted material

September 11, 2016, 12:01 PM	#10
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,742	I know the Berger target VLDs became popular for long range hunting, but I think "long range" is key. The impact then occurs after traveling far enough to have lost some velocity and to have long since gone to sleep (by which I mean settled out of initial yaw; takes about 200 yards, typically). These factors greatly reduces the chance of tumbling in the game as well as reducing the impact stresses on the bullet. I expect this goes a long way toward explaining the discrepancies in personal experiences hunting with match bullets. Since MatchKings are built into our military's 7.62 sniper round (Mk 316; 175 grain SMK) and 5.56 (Mk 262; both 77 grain SMK and 77 grain Nosler match used), they are clearly perfectly capable of lethality. But in warfare the fastest stop rather than the most humane is critical to keeping your own people alive, and obviously the meat hunter's concern with avoiding bloodshot meat is absent. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

September 11, 2016, 01:51 PM	#11
Slamfire Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2007 Posts: 5,261	I have talked to people who have used SMK's on deer and the bullets were lethal. I do not agree with using these bullets as I have had a core separate from the jacket, with Norma hunting ammunition, and was lucky the core continued up the deer and killed it. I have known others who hunted much bigger game than 90 lb deer, and one who was using a 308 Win, told me of a bad experience where one brand of bullets blew up on the hide of an elk. That particular hunter changed brands and found a bullet that would reliably penetrate and expand. No more injured and suffering elk. If the manufacturer does not recommend these for hunting that is probably a good reason not to use them. I think people use them because they confuse the accuracy of the bullet with lethality. Hunting bullets today, the better ones, are very accurate, in fact I am surprised on how well they group, and they are designed to provide expansion and penetration. Target bullets are simply designed to go in one hole. __________________ If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading.

September 11, 2016, 08:37 PM	#15
Stats Shooter Senior Member Join Date: August 26, 2016 Location: North Dakota Posts: 1,636	Load I posted a load recipe recently below called Ruger SR 762....i used a 165 gr game king. The load is .67 moa at 2694 fps...that's out of a 16.12" barrel. My point is, with that kind of performance, why would you even want to try using a paper puncher hunting? A well placed shot like head or neck would likely kill anything.... except maybe bears who have thick skulls, and hogs.

September 10, 2016, 08:04 PM	#1
Tlewis81 Member Join Date: January 3, 2016 Posts: 75	Sierra matchkings I know sierra says dont hunt with them and honestly with ghe accuracy of.their gamekings i wouldnt but has anyone ever shot any big game with them say a deer or bear? What were the results

September 10, 2016, 08:21 PM	#2
briandg Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2010 Posts: 5,468	These things have a hollow cavity up front. the jackets are very thin. When that hollow cavity strikes, it's going to pop the jacket open wide. The jacket will immediately peel. then, the core will be all that's left, and it will break up. This is absolutely the worst hunting round possible, unless you want explosive fragmentation. You want a solid bullet with heavy jacket designed to hold together and hold core to gether. Look at the other lines. Don't make the assumption that the came king will be innacurate and that the match king will be far more accurate. It may be nothing more than 1/4 moa for a typiclal hunting rifle, or there may be no advantage at all.

September 10, 2016, 08:23 PM	#3
briandg Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2010 Posts: 5,468	I realize that you didn't ask what I answered. Those things will probably fail miserably on a large game animal like a bear. it's going to tear apart and probably not penetrate.

September 10, 2016, 08:53 PM	#4
shootbrownelk Senior Member Join Date: August 27, 2013 Location: Wyoming Posts: 329	Sierra's GameKing and Pro Hunter bullets are made for hunting. MatchKings are for punching holes in paper. Use the right tool for the job at hand. Similar accuracy, similar price.

September 10, 2016, 09:47 PM	#5
Tlewis81 Member Join Date: January 3, 2016 Posts: 75	Didnt say i was gonna just wanted to see if anyone had....im sure somebody has....i love the gamekings....not thinking about it either just wondering

September 10, 2016, 10:15 PM	#6
briandg Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2010 Posts: 5,468	You've pretty much got the answer. I can't claim to have done it, but that's what will happen. It's going to break up and it won't penetrate or mushroom very much. the jacket is going to peel off and there will be nothing but a weak lead core that will have hit at well over 2,000 fps. The soft lead core is going to break up as it expands since there will be no jacket to support the mushroom. This is what will happen when it hits heavy tissues. Keep in mind that this is the very same design that is used in varmint hunting.

September 11, 2016, 08:27 AM	#8
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 7,209	I had one blow up (mule deer #1). I had one pencil straight through (mule deer #2). That was 1973. There was no deer #3.

September 11, 2016, 10:13 AM	#9
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	There was a reloading forum 15 years ago [now a ghost town] that had a thread on hunting with match kings. It went on for over 100 pages. It went on for years. I did not have a dog in the fight, but I could see the two points of view were not going to resolve. The argument over my Nosler ballistic tips vs my hunting buddy's partitions does not resolve. Before there were www gun forums, there was rec.guns in the early 1990s. I could see that terminal ballistics questions do not resolve. Posters had their own anecdotes, and others pointed to larger bodies of data like .. Strasbourg goat tests, and the Marshall and Sanow... but it never resolved. I think the problems with resolving terminal ballistics in a forum situation is: 1) that there are too many out of control variables that are more dominant than the variable under test. 2) People believe what they want to believe.

September 11, 2016, 07:00 PM	#12
briandg Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2010 Posts: 5,468	If one follows this link, there is a gelatiin test that showed the gelatin tests of a 77 grain .223 round. They had to have melted it down through a screen. Inch by inch, it showed that the bullet turned into literal dust with a little chunk at the far end. http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...%E2%89%A0-jhp/ They list the match king as generally not appropriate for hunting. They list them as being thin jackets, and they will either, depending on bullet, disintegrate, not expand at all, or remain intact, depending on bullet and appication The key to understanding it is that the HP matchking is not a solid design. To create a very effective ballistic coefficent, the bullets are lenthened beyond the norm. They have a rather large open cavinty beyond the core. Jackets are very thin, intendiing to give perfect jacket concentricity. when this bullet strikes, that empty piece of jacket collapses immediately, then it is dragged off of they core. The soft core is unprotecthed and mushroom is not supported. at high velocity, this core and jacket just tear apart as the pieces are exposed. The jacket will be entirely stripped, and the lead will fragment until it reaches around sub sonic ranges and the ead manages to hold together. Over 3K fps? there is nothing to hold it together and it will fragment competely. 2Kor under? The jacket will still tear off as it exposes itselfm with nothing to hold that thin jaket to the lead, and it will be exposed as soom as the tip breaks down. Then, it's going to behoave much as a soft lead bullet will do. It may retain it's shape, punching through like a long solid lead bullet deforming or breaking up, all depending on the bullet weight, velocity, material impacted, etc. The photo at that blog shows a varmint style match king when it hit gel. A magnum rifle at short range witll act similarly. a standard round will perform better at lower veloities. You an get blowups with anything. these aren't intended to hold together, and normally wont. They are meant to be accurate and that isn't usualy consistent with hunting terminal ballistics. Sierra has apage https://www.sierrabullets.com/store/...HPBT-MatchKing I hate to harp on this, but it is a pretty much open and shut case thatan accurate bullet intended for hunting will perform as well or slightly less well as the match king within realistikm maybe out to 300 yards or more, and will give far better performance iin terrminal ballistics.

September 11, 2016, 07:53 PM	#14
603Country Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2011 Location: Thornton, Texas Posts: 4,039	I wouldn't have a problem coyote hunting with match type bullets, but as sure as the sun shines, here would come a big hog. That happens often enough that I finally parked the 220 and moved to my 260. I'm with Clark. If you want to hunt with an accurate game bullet, use Nosler Ballistic Tips.

September 11, 2016, 08:40 PM	#16
Tlewis81 Member Join Date: January 3, 2016 Posts: 75	Lol i love all input anyone ever whacked a coyote with one....i hunt with gamekings and nosler ballistics deer hunt hunt that is and have no accuracy complaints just simply asking a question

September 11, 2016, 08:43 PM	#17
Stats Shooter Senior Member Join Date: August 26, 2016 Location: North Dakota Posts: 1,636	Good point.....i have shot coons and Arkansa'd a pheasant with a match bullet....but nothing beyond that.

September 11, 2016, 09:29 PM	#19
Dufus Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2014 Posts: 1,967	I used to use the Sierra bullets exclusively back in the 60s & 70s and then I saw the light. My Dad lost 4 solidly hit deer in succession with what is now called the Match King. Range was 80-160 yards. AND, it was classified a hunting bullet. After making a discovery, neither of us has shot a Sierra bullet since. For the record, no deer was lost and all were one shot kills from 1976 until 2008 when he had to stop hunting. And, with another brand of bullet.

September 11, 2016, 10:30 PM	#20
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,974	No personal experience, but based on 10+ years of being active in several hunting related forums this is what I gather from others who have done so. There are quite a few guys who hunt large game with match bullets. It appears that the Sierra's are the least consistent. Some guys have reported success, but many more have reported less than satisfactory performance. Berger's on the other hand seem to get a lot more praise, with some criticism. The success many had with their match bullets prompted Berger to build a bullet designed for hunting. Supposedly the same bullet with a thinner jacket for more consistent expansion. Many claim it is no better or worse than the match bullets and it is just marketing to sell to hunters. The problem with some match bullets is that they fragment on contact. The difference with Bergers is that they act like a FMJ for the first 4-6" giving enough penetration to reach vitals on a broadside shot before basically exploding. Reports are that with a good hit game drops faster than basically any other rounds. The disadvantage is poor penetration on shots from bad angles. As long as shots are chosen carefully they seem work great. They are a great choice for long range work since they still expand at slower speeds. But still do the same thing at close range. The only negatives I come across are from guys who tried to take shots on elk size game from bad angles. Another full blown target bullet that lots of hunters use is the Scenar. It is not designed or marketed for hunting, but I've seen the photos of enough dead animals to say it works. I've never read of a single negative report on this round when used on game. I've loaded 155 and 168 Berger hunting bullets for my 308 with excellent accuracy, but haven't put one into an animal yet.

September 12, 2016, 01:50 PM	#21
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	Matchkings have a thin jacket that is not designed to expand upon impact. They're not designed for hunting anything but varmints. Shoot a deer or bear with one and you'll just drill a wee hole with little or no expansion.

September 12, 2016, 03:00 PM	#22
Tlewis81 Member Join Date: January 3, 2016 Posts: 75	Dufus....i pmed u sir thank you

September 12, 2016, 11:10 PM	#23
Stats Shooter Senior Member Join Date: August 26, 2016 Location: North Dakota Posts: 1,636	Well, all I can say is, I'm going moose hunting next fall with my brother and father, and I'm going to either use my trusty Nosler Accubonds, or my ol' trusty partition in my .300 win mag. I have never fired more than once on deer and hogs using either of those bullets and on both elk I have shot they were DRT. 200 grain bullets at 2950 fps. The partition hits like a big hammer, but the Accubonds have better ballistics and are about as effective.