Should a Small Base Die be able to set the shoulder back too far?

[sirgilligan]

FYI: Everything is RCBS. Rock Chucker Supreme kit, RCBS shell older, RCBS .223 REM small base die set.

Is my resizing die or shell holder out of spec? Here is why I ask.

I put the shell holder in, run the ram to the top. Screw in the resizing die until it touched and then tightened it 1/8th to 1/4th of a turn more according to the directions.

I resized some once fired brass and checked them in a Dillon .223 REM Go/No Go gauge and the gauge shows the case to be out of spec. The head of the case is below the valley in the gauge.

My question again is this, is the resizing die out of spec? Maybe the shell holder?

I have been told that it is impossible to get the shoulder set back too far.

I have reset the sizing die by only turning it 1/16th of a turn and the resized brass is correct, just below the high on the gauge and well above the low of the gauge.

I am new to this, but I think it is because I screwed it down too far. But if shoulder set back is not a function of how far you screw the die into the press then what is happening?

Again, it is a small base die, I am running the case up until the press cams over.

[PA-Joe]

Yes, this can happen. 1/16th turn out is good. Some rifles have very short chambers so the dies are made to fit the minimum length.

[4runnerman]

Don't use the gauge to determine your shoulder set back. Use your chamber to tell you how far back to set it. Your not making factory ammo,you are making ammo to fit your chamber.

[sirgilligan]

Thanks. That's all I needed to hear.

In a way I am reloading for factory ammo. I have three completely different rifles and this batch of ammo is for the "general" use bucket. One an FN, another a Ruger, and the last a CZ. Two are semi auto, one a bolt action.

I will eventually get me a neck sizing die for the bolt action.

Thanks again.

[Bart B.]

I suggest you get a Redding or RCBS full length bushing die. Or a standard Forster full length sizing die then pay them $12 to hone its neck to .002" smaller than a loaded round's neck diameter. Same size as bushings need to be. Set the die to bump fired case shoulders back .002".

Neck sizing dies fell out of popularity for group shooting several years ago.

[skizzums]

if your shoulders are too low, that's an easy fix, just back your die out until the shoulders are where you want them. if your shoulders are too high, than that can be a problem.

[oley55]

Sirgilligan,
ref: I resized some once fired brass and checked them in a Dillon .223 REM Go/No Go gauge and the gauge shows the case to be out of spec. The head of the case is below the valley in the gauge.

I am not familiar with the Dillon case gauges, but I do use the Wilson case gauges. here is a link to a video by L.E. Wilson explaining how to use their case gauge to find and measure your headspace. I expect the same process will apply for the Dillon gauges.

Not that it will help you when loading for three different rifles. But it is a pretty good resource. I too load general plinking ammo for myself and son in various 556 weapons. But I do have a 24" HBAR AR15 that I try to load for serious accuracy. It's a work in progress, and that's the fun of it.

just an FYI on general all purpose loads. I recommend you to still try to find an accurate load. I made the mistake of finding a safe load that I then used it to load 500 hundred rounds. Well more often than not these loads create a really nice shotgun pattern, but nothing that looks like a group. I'm probably going to order a collet for pulling .224s and then reload the whole batch with a decent load.

[zeke]

There are differences between brands, and individual die sets. It is possible to set the shoulder back further than what you want. Some dies are better at sizing down further, without setting the shoulder back as far. It all depends on what you need.

Am in possession of of a CZ 308 varmint, that actually crush fits the shoulder of most factory cases. Am using a neck sizing die for it, as a fl sizing die set for minimum shoulder setback for other rifles will allow the shoulder to move forward. Or could set the appropriate fl die to set the shoulder back further.

Seems to be common with some older CZ rifles, don't have any newer ones.

[F. Guffey]

The head of the case is below the valley in the gauge.

It does not get better than that. The full length sizer is designed to return the case to minimum length. The problem? Reloaders do not understand minimum length or the accuracy of a case gage. The minimum and maximum on a case gage is minimum length and go-gage length. In the perfect world the chamber is go-gage length, I do not live in the perfect world, I measure the length of the chamber from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face. When I am sizing for a go-gage length chamber I size cases to minimum length +.002", for cases that have been fired and sized over and over etc.? That does not happen to me, I have no visions of grandeur about one case lasting me a life time.

Small base dies, I have small base dies, Winchester suggested purchasing small base dies for a Model 70 I purchased from them. The rifle had the ugliest chamber I have ever seen. I wanted a chamber that fit my dies or Winchester dies to fit their chamber, when sizing the fired cases I believe I would have shattered the die before I could manage to stuff the cases into a die. The rifle went to the smith first and then on to Winchester. We had words.

I would suggest you start with factory ammo, I suggest you save a few unfired cases for comparison if they chamber and fire. I have seen black rifles using factory ammo of three different manufactures, one manufacturer would chamber and fire and two would not allow the bolt to close.

If the factory ammo chambers and fires, measure the diameter of the base of the case above the extractor, when sizing compare the sized case head diameter above the extractor with the factory ammo. remember, the deck height of the shell holder is .125", if the case head expands it could be a pressure warning, the only way a reloader would know if the case head is expanding would require the reloader to measure the case head diameter before firing.

F. Guffey

[mehavey]

Unless someone else is better informed than I, "small base" dies produce no more/no less shoulder setback than
"regular" dies. They simply ensure the last portion of the case's base/web diameter is brought back into spec
from previous firing in oversize chambers.

Shoulder setback is determined by how far the die (any die) is screwed down into the press/against the shellholder.
If contact + 1/8 turn is too much, screw it down to simple contact -- and test in your rifle's chamber.

[sirgilligan]

if the case head expands it could be a pressure warning

I sorted my brass and I was only doing the PMC Bronze. On one, the case head had expanded so much the head wouldn't even go into the go/no go gauge. I sat that case aside to look at later. There was a bur on the case head from the extraction process and I thought that might be the problem, so I took the chamfer tool and knocked the bur off, still not even close to going in the gauge.

[mehavey]

1. Case head expanded (i.e., the base/web section -- not the rim), or the just the rim ?

2. Previously fired in your rifle, or someone else's ?

3. "General Use" means it's sized for the most restrictive of your weapons -- the gas guns.

[F. Guffey]

so I took the chamfer tool and knocked the bur off, still not even close to going in the gauge.

The bur could have been caused by the extractor, can happen on cases that are difficult to extract.

Not something anyone would do, but me. I reverse the case and insert it into the sizing die, The case head should fit into the die, with exceptions. I have sizing dies that are different, they are case sticking dies. Then there are small base dies, small base dies are not as small as most think. The last part only applies to my small base dies. Again, I have small base dies, I do not use them but I have them JIC.

F. Guffey

[sirgilligan]

1. Case head expanded (i.e., the base/web section -- not the rim), or the just the rim ?

2. Previously fired in your rifle, or someone else's ?

3. "General Use" means it's sized for the most restrictive of your weapons -- the gas guns.

The "ring" that has the head stamp on it, is that the base or the rim, I don't know for sure.

It should have been from one of mine, the odds of picking up a brass with the same head stamp from someone else must be very small. Only one time was I at a range, the rest was on the family farm, and then there was only one time another 223 rifle was in the mix, so most like from one of mine.

[mehavey]

If it's only one case that has the out-of-spec/expanded rim (your previous post), discard it and move on.

What are you loading in these "general purpose" rounds ?
- Case
- Powder/weight
- Bullet make/type/weight
- OAL

[sirgilligan]

If it's only one case that has the out-of-spec/expanded rim (your previous post), discard it and move on.

What are you loading in these "general purpose" rounds ?
- Case
- Powder/weight
- Bullet make/type/weight
- OAL

Case is PMC Bronze once fired .223 REm
Powder - haven't decided, Ram Shot TAC or H335 (I have both on hand)
Bullet make - I think it will be some Hornady FMJ-BT 55 grain.
I also have Hornady Soft Point 55 gr, Barnes TSX BT 62 gr, and Nosler Ballistic Tip 60 gr Spitzer.

OAL - between 2.125 to 2.260. I am going to measure some factory loads that I know work in all three rifles.

[mehavey]

OK... so the 'out-of-spec' case is from a factory round.

In that case (no pun intended) simply size to fit the chamber for your tightest gas gun, and realize that the other rifles will likely stretch the cases a bit more on firing.

Paper clip test often...

[F. Guffey]

OAL - between 2.125 to 2.260. I am going to measure some factory loads that I know work in all three rifles.

http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC...0Remington.pdf

2.125" and 2.260" came straight from SAAMI.

I resized some once fired brass and checked them in a Dillon .223 REM Go/No Go gauge and the gauge shows the case to be out of spec. The head of the case is below the valley in the gauge.

Again, the gage is not a head space gage it is a case length gage, if the die, shell holder and press was not sizing the case the case would protrude from the top of the gage. When measuring the length of the case from the datum (.330") to the head of the case the reading according to SAAMI should be close to 1.438". I would suggest you measure the length of a case fired in one of your rifles or from all three rifles.

F. Guffey

[sirgilligan]

The Dillon case gauge is supposed to be both a head space gauge and a case length gauge.

You drop the case in the gauge and hold it in the air and check the head space. Flip it over and sit it on a flat surface and check the case length.

http://www.dillonprecision.com/conte...fle_Case_Gages

[sirgilligan]

Paper clip test often...

Check the flash hole? Is that what you mean?

Oh... I got it, check for case head separation. Thanks.

[reynolds357]

Why are you using a small base sizing die?
I have or have had more than 40 AR rifles in my life. None needed small based die. I have a small based die that has never been opened because it is not needed.

You must also keep in mind that a case gage is pretty worthless unless you cut it with the same reamer that reamed your chamber.

[sirgilligan]

Why are you using a small base sizing die?

Because when I asked what I should get and I tell them I have an FN semi-auto, a Ruger semi-auto, and a cZ bolt gun and I am loading generic rounds that I want to use in any of the rifles I was told the best thing to do is get small base dies. I had to start some where.

[rg1]

I also have a small based sizer somewhere in a drawer. Having loaded for several different brand AR's and 30-06 semi-autos I've never needed small based dies. For a case gauge I use the rifle's chamber. To measure shoulder setback I use either the RCBS Precision Mic or Hornady's Headspace Gauge set. I prefer to measure rather than gauge. The first shellholder I bought when starting to load .223 was defective and caused me to oversize the case. Loaded a few hundred rounds before my RCBS Precision Mic arrived and showed me I was pushing the shoulder back almost .009" too much. The shellholder should measure .125" from the top to the shelf the case head sits on. I measure fired rounds to see how much the shoulder expands forward in every rifle and adjust the sizing die to push the shoulder back a measured amount and to make sure they will chamber in all my rifles. Lot's of loaders use small based sizers and nothing wrong with that but some say it overworks the brass but very little. They actually size the brass close to what factory brass is. I've just never seen it necessary in my rifles or others.

[F. Guffey]

I had to start where

Just an opinion, you seems defensive, I believe you have received some good advise, some giving advise believe everything has head space and all tools are head space gages. My cases do not have head space, my cases have length. One length from the mouth of the case to the head of the case and my cases have a length from the shoulder/datum to the case head.

F. Guffey

[rg1]

Of course F. Guffey is correct. Rifle chambers have head space and brass has length. I'm one who uses the wrong terms. It's so common that at least I hope we understand what we're talking about.