What Are Best Dies For AR-15 Service Rifle

[brycealbright]

I am reloading used .223 brass and need a sizing die that will allow for the correct head space. That being, where the head of the brass rests flush to the bottom of the head space gage (not in the middle or at the top of the gage). I tried this with a Lyman die and ended up leaving an onion skin mark on some of the shoulders.

[Griff, SASS93]

In my limited experience, I chose the RCBS .223/5.56 "Small Base" dies. These resize the case to a minimum spec, ensuring they'll chamber in the widest assortment of guns. With 3 AR type guns... 3 different chamber sizes, I didn't want any issues with not being able to grab any ammo and hit the range... 'sides, while feeding issues are irritating in competition, they can be even more frustrating when it's really important!

[Bart B.]

A full length sizing die set in the press to push the fired case shoulder back about .002" to .003" along with sizing down the case body diameters about the same amount. One that uses a bushing whose diameter is .002" smaller in diameter than loaded round average neck diameter. Both RCBS and Redding makes them. Any standard bullet seating die will do great.

What's an onion skin mark?

[brycealbright]

Do I need to get a bushing die .002 smaller or as you put it, any bullet sizing die will work. Like I said, I need to get the head space right. Bart, as for the onion skin mark, a small area to the shoulder of the brass looks a little wavy. Thanks.

[steve4102]

You can get the "Headspace" right with any standard Full Length die.

I have Redding, RCBS, Hornady, Lee, Forster . They all will set the "headspace" correctly if set up properly.

I also load for several Semi-Autos and I have yet to find the need for a Small Base die.

Pick one, it will work just fine.

[Bart B.]

The "correct" headspace for your cases in your rifle is about .003" less than chamber headspace.

What gauge you want the case head to rest at the bottom of? A Wilson case gauge?

If all cases had that same wavy mark on their shoulders, the sizing die probably caused them. They may not be a problem; depends on the wave height.

[brycealbright]

Thanks.

[Bart B.]

If that wavy mark is on the case body behind the shoulder, you may need to lube the case shoulders and necks before sizing them.

[brycealbright]

I think something is wrong with my Lyman sizing die, going to buy new ones.

[Jimro]

"Best" is a subjective, not objective, opinion. So I will tell you that brand and model aren't as important as setting your dies up correctly.

Reloading for an AR means you should full length size every time for best reliability. If you are loading for best accuracy, say single loading at the 600 yard line, then you'll still want to size the shoulder back more than a thousandth or two so you don't end up bruising your hand smacking the forward assist to get the bolt to close.

You don't need a small base die unless your rifle has a chamber that needs it. Most rifles do not, but if you have feeding issues, a small base die can eliminate them.

I've literally reloaded thousands of 223 using Lee standard FL sizing dies set up to full length size the brass. I don't bother segregating brass for sizing for the 600 yard load, and that hasn't been an issue in terms of accuracy for service rifle.

Not to say I'm all about Lee, I also use Hornady, RCBS, and even an old set of Herters brand dies. They all work.

Jimro

[mohr308]

I use the RCBS AR series small base 2 die set .223/5.56. I also bought a LE Wilson case gage to setup for sizing the brass. I've never had an issue with feeding issues, no problems at all actually. Last time I saw that set on Midwayusa is was around $20

[mohr308]

Ok the die set is $40 sorry

[skizzums]

usually if I have any "waves" or imperfections on my shoulders its because I have used too much lube.

[Bart B.]

When the AR15's first showed up in dealers racks, buyers quickly learned their fired cases oft times would not rechamber easily. They tried all sorts of neck sizing like benchresters did at the time, but they didn't work well if they chambered, which the usually didn't. Like the other two semiauto 30 caliber service rifles, fired cases performed best when full length sized.

Also like their 30 caliber big brothers, crimping case mouths into bullets guaranteed less accuracy on otherwise properly sized cases. And new cases shot more accurate than any reloaded ones; same as the 30 caliber semiautos.

[steve4102]

I think something is wrong with my Lyman sizing die, going to buy new ones.

I highly doubt there is anything wrong with your dies.

No disrespect intended, but nine times out of nine a sizing problem is pilot error and not the die.

Did you clean the die with a good solvent before use?

Are you lubing the cases properly, just enough/not to much?

Have you inserted the sized cases into your tubed Wilson gauge head first?

[edward hogan]

Best value for the money goes to Redding Type S FL bushing die with a Forster Benchrest seater.

Won't need SB dies. The Redding FL bushing die is a body die if remove the decapping assy and bushing.. Might want a couple bushings to see if neck tension is a big concern.

If have more than one upper, you want your sizer set for the .003" under from the closest headspaced chamber. Means you might be .004 under from you longer chambered upper. Unless you use different headstamp cases in each upper, no other way to be sure of enough clearance.

Buying fired brass, LC and WCC, never know what kind of rocks or debris will be in the cases. I use a Lee depriming die so I don't have breakage in the S die. Dillon 600 pocket swager goes very fast once you get the rhythm.

Wilson Case Gauge or RCBS Precision Mic will help you be certain of you chamber dimension and setup your sizing die to get exact results. If you don't already own a dial or digital caliper, you'll need one to use the Wilson tool. Precision Mic comes ready to use, but each PM is different, unlike the Wilson which is callibrated/ground to exact dimension. PM will show you variation in .001" detail, but no two PMs in same ctg even will measure the same. They don't have to. They show you a pre-fire value and after firing value for dimension of the case and all headspace, even belted magnums, on the shoulder.

[brycealbright]

I had no idea that so much could be read into the subject of dies. As with, too, Bart's comment about crimping the .223.

[Bart B.]

Regarding bullet seating dies, it's my experience that if the fired case is sized properly with its neck straight on the case body axis and its mouth a thousandth or two smaller in diameter than the bullet, any seating die will put a bullet in it and the bullet will be very straight. No bullet seater I know of completely corrects for bent case necks. Sizing dies without expander balls make straighter case necks on cases.

[edward hogan]

Problem with case necks for AR-15 and even New Virgin brass these days is the necks are likely dinged. When ejected hand-tailored match brass hits concrete pad under the shooting shed, the brass necks dent and get deformed. Buying 1x military brass assures you'll deal with this.

Need some kind of expander ball or mandrel to return neck to correct shape.

Fred Sinclair used to sell a handbook for precision loading and scope mounting. He advised tightening decap rod assy while the deprime rod was still located in the flash hole. Got the rod correctly aligned that way. Another tip of his was to polish the expanding ball with crocus cloth and get it about .001" less in diameter.

If you control the extraction of your fired brass and can retrieve it from the breach or have so mildly tuned an ejector that the spent case pops onto the bench w/o falling on concrete, won't have any dinged necks. For sure, any handloader shooting AR rifles ought fine-tune their ejector spring so your brass don't fling into the next county or hit the shooter at adjacent firing station. Buy a few ejector springs and experiment with length to put the brass where you want it, like in a pile at your feet about 2 o'clock. Rifle length gas system also exerts less violent action than carbine or shorter length on brass as the action cycles. Longer than rifle length will be even less abrupt and easier on brass at ejection.

[Bart B.]

In my tests on sized case neck runout after sizing them, best results were had when the expander ball was set just below the case neck when the case was full into the sizing die. It was move up to start into the case neck when the case was pulled about 1/32" back out of the die. That kept most of the case neck centered in the die's neck as the expander ball came up through it. The least amount of neck bending happened using this method.

Worst amount of neck bending was when the decapping stem was locked in place with the decapping pin in the case flash hole while the case was full into the die. The expander ball was the furthest away from the die's neck and nothing held the case neck in place while the ball came up through it. Plus, the decapping stem had a lot of unsupported length that was easily bent off center with little side forces against it.

Bent case necks from sizing went away when I honed out the die's necks so no ball was needed.

[edward hogan]

Hi Bart,

Agree that any sizing ball ought be way higher located in the sizing die.

Lot of guys rave about Lee's Collet die system, and there are other collet sizers, but I have no experience with them.

Fred Sinclair advised tightening the decap/expander ball rod while decap pin was in/through the flash hole to get rod "located" about as concentric with case as possible. If the flash hole was drilled off center, yikes!

There is a certain amount of "slop" in any threaded die press with moving linkage. How many die-mount plates are even ground parallel so the die sits concentric. Kind of prefer RCBS shellholders to Redding because the case head/rim slot seems tighter. Is the loose Redding "better" because allows the case to shift more and get its own alignment? Maybe. But there is a bit of looseness in the RCBS holders too, just not as much.

I began loading with a Lee Loader in 1967. Probably the "best" system for accuracy of all, the press-die/arbor-die system. Is the Lee system better than Wilson? Maybe, since the case never leaves the one die throughout the whole operation and Wilson uses two dies... The competition series Lee Loaders are highly esteemed. Does "perfect" ammunition matter in scope of all the variables? I have seen guys, on forums, obsessing about how "X" scale will measure the same # of powder granules. As if that is an assurance of exact ignition every shot. And who counts powder granules in even a 24gr load???

I have modified RCBS sizing balls on miniature lathe to some success. If the Redding S decap stems were steel that would be a big improvement for my purposes. Have not yet taken time to thread my own design. The Redding carbide ball kit actually "floats" on the stem and finds its own center, maybe a whole other design is what the 7/8x14 sizer die needs to maximize precision potential? Does it really matter considering the press linkage-slop factor?

Eliminate as many hardware variables as you can and all that remains is our skill. That is pretty much the goal in any precision shooting.

Guy on the National Match board had an article in Precision/Tactical Shooter about his mods of the Dillon 550b for loading the 6K rds of Service Rifle ammo he and his daughter fired each year in competition and practice. Not a lot of work on the machine; tighten the die holder fit and polish the powder measure internals so you got smoother funneling of powder to the metering chamber, as I remember.

Would it help a contender make President's 100 if they used Wilson arbor tools for all their handloading? Maybe, but it's doubtful that any do. Perfect ammo is not the whole ball of wax. Any means we can use to minimize the variables and still have some level of time effectiveness from our loading tools and efforts seems the ticket.

I do enjoy writing about handloading. Always brings up so many ideas...

[Bart B.]

Would it help a contender make President's 100 if they used Wilson arbor tools for all their handloading?

I don't think so. Especially when virtually all the best scores from 22 caliber AR's at the Nationals were shot with new cases. Few, if any, bolt faces on AR's are squared up with the chamber axis. And new cases too often have out of square heads after firing; partially from out of square bolt faces and the rest from too much case stretching on their thin side in chambers too long for the case headspace on new ammo. Before firing, new cases have fairly square case heads and they were preferred for 7.62 NATO match grade M1 and M14NM or M1A service rifles for best accuracy; no reloaded cases shot all that great in them as they strung shots from 7 to 1 o'clock on paper.

[Jim243]

I am reloading used .223 brass and need a sizing die that will allow for the correct head space.

Most problems with AR's having Failure to Feed or Failure to go to full battery problems are from bent magazine lips or the case's shoulder not set back properly or the reloaded case not being fully re-sized all the way down to the head.

There are two tools that can help you correct the last two problems. The first is the L.E. Wilson case gauge that will help you insure that the shoulder has been set back sufficiently by adjusting your die properly.




The second is the RCBS X-Small Base full length re-sizing die that will insure the base (head) of the case has been fully re-sized.



These two tools should fix your problems.


Stay safe and shoot straight.
Jim

[Bart B.]

Jim, small base dies do not size down the last 3/16ths inch or so of a fired case's back end; its head, if you like. They only size down cases from a few thousandths behind the pressure ring line forward. 1/8th inch of the case head is inside the shellholder and the diameter of the sizing die sizing down the case is about 1/16th or more inch up from the die's bottom with a radius to protect its sizing chamber edges and align the case on its way in. So there's about 3/16ths inch or more of the case at its head end that gets no sizing at all.

[Jim243]

Bart: I don't know what your problems are! But this fixed the same problem Bryce is having, when over 6 years ago I started to use these tools. No issues since then in 4 different 223 rifles.

Jim