What's with the interest in Annealing?

[BumbleBug]

I've noticed here of late a number of new posts about annealing. I've always just shot my brass 7 or 8 times (or until a neck split) then thrown the whole batch into the recycle can. Then I buy some more. Is it the high cost & scarcity of brass making annealing gain popularity (again)? Just what is the expectation- shoot the same brass indefinitely? I'm wondering what kind of case life people have experienced with annealing.

TIA...

...bug

[jmorris]

Cost and time one takes to get them how the want them.

Once you sort them by weight, uniform the primer pockets, flash hole, turn the neck and cut, fire form (for some "special" rounds) it makes a lot of difference to get 10 times the use out of each case.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Brass can last dozens of reloads when handled properly. The good stuff (Norma, Lapua) will last a couple dozen without being handled properly.

Annealing is quick and easy (it doesn't have to be the voodoo it seems to be on the internet) and can improve accuracy while enhancing brass life.

[tobnpr]

Here's everything you want to know, and then some:

http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

Reloading for three, I barely have the time to do the "must's" like trimming...

So for the time being, I'm in the "buy new brass" camp.

[jwrowland77]

I'm in the neck size only, neck turn, uniform primer pocket, uniform flash hole, weight sort, trim to consistent length every time, anneal after every firing, spend a lot of time of brass prep for my match ammo, so I try and make it last as long as I can camp. Yes I use Lapua brass but currently only have 300 cases of it. Have around 700 Winchester cases, so I'm definitely trying to make them last.

[Jim243]

I don't do it, but have you seen the prices on brass lately?? It gets much higher I will have to bring out the old blow torch.

Jim

[mete]

Brass is 70 % copper so yes it should get more expensive following copper price. Not very time consuming and no you don't need a machine unless you reload huge amounts.

[Jim243]

Brass is 70 % copper so yes it should get more expensive following copper price

That begs the question, where is all this copper supposedly going??

Not in new power lines my understanding that the new ones are aluminium. Not in new housing starts for plumbing, new construction is down. Maybe in new cars they are bringing out the new electrics, but not in enough numbers to effect the price of copper. Not in pots and pans most are steel coated with teflon not the fancy copper ones. More microwave ovens?? maybe. Air conditioning coils, don't think so again construction is down. Are we sell more refrigerators? don't know.

And while we are at it, what is happening to all the old copper we recover from tear-downs and recycling?

So again, where is all this copper going and why are case prices going through the roof??? (Price fixing maybe????) Or have we just stopped digging it out of the ground?

Jim

[caz223]

Precious metals are going to china.
Same thing they did to lead a decade ago.
Look where lead prices went after they got all the lead they wanted.
Let me ask you a question, what happens when Amazon wants to put a competitor out of business? They flood the market with what you're selling, so you have to lower your prices to sell product. (That gives the illusion of stable pricing) When you can no longer compete, they buy you out as a puppet, buy your devalued inventory, and/or let you starve.
Once you're out of the picture, they raise prices, and enjoy the monopoly by blowing out your old inventory at what it's really worth.
Econ 101

[jwrowland77]

Big influx of new reloaders. Demand goes up. If supply stays level or goes down a bit, price will go up. Only way for price to remain same is supply go up to meet new demand. Only way price goes down, is for demand to go down.

[RC20]

BumbleBug: I keep my hobby as low cost as possible. Most of my brass is once fire pickup or once fired second hand buy.

If it takes a bit of effort to keep it working then that part stays real low cost. I can't save money on powder or bullets or primers but I can on brass.

Adds up even more if you buy real good stuff like Starline or Lapua.

If money is not an issue then messing with annealing is not worth it as per the following replay to Brian (he is one of the sites great contributors, we just disagree on if there is a truly accurate annealing method.

Annealing is quick and easy (it doesn't have to be the voodoo it seems to be on the internet) and can improve accuracy while enhancing brass life.

I have to disagree on the vodoo aspect. While the temp spec is accurate, how to get it and ensure that it is that for the right amount of time is not.

I have seen only one method that looked to be right (he had a twirly setup with a dot of temp stick dip aka nail polish like inside the neck.) It looks like it may work.

I do seem to have some degree of success with a torch and color change.

Not scientific but the brass did not stay color changed when tumbled so I at least did not overheat and loose the brass. I may not achieve the full affect of annealing either, best I seem to be able to do.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by RC20

I have to disagree on the vodoo aspect. While the temp spec is accurate, how to get it and ensure that it is that for the right amount of time is not.

I use a propane torch and tape over most of the air inlet so the flame is cooler (reducing flame). I hold the brass by the head, rotating it in the flame and drop it in water when it gets too hot to hold. With a properly adjusted flame (just takes some trial and error), I get annealing stains that you need calipers to see any difference.

It's impossible to over heat the head region as you'd have 3rd degree burns on your fingers. The reduced flame makes it impossible to over heat the neck region because it can't get that hot before your fingers start burning.

For several years, all the gloom and doom on the internet had me convinced that a home annealer could not do a consistent, safe job without spending big bucks on automation or the annoyances of applying (and remove) Tempilaq or similar to every single case.

It's simply not true. Easy as pie. It doesn't have to be that complicated if you understand what's happening and the temperatures and time required.

[jwrowland77]

I'll have to try that tape trick next time I anneal

[DarthNul]

I want to anneal for two reasons: consistent neck tension and extending brass life.

[tobnpr]

I want to anneal for two reasons: consistent neck tension and extending brass life.

Neck tension is a good reason. Which is why I'm finally ordering some bushing dies.

But, that consistent neck tension (IMO) would be more dependent on correct neck sizing relative to bullet diameter than the physical properties of the brass itself. As long as the brass hasn't been work-hardened, annealing wouldn't be necessary.

I do wonder if there is any hard and fast evidence (as in actual ballistic tests) as to how much difference annealing makes in consistent neck tension, vs. just using bushing dies.

I tend to be more pragmatic in my shooting. While I'll take all the help I can get, I'm not one that's into "hair-splitting" at this point in my abilities...I've got a long ways to go on wind calls at a grand before I need to worry about doing (or not) something might affect my poi by a couple of inches at that range.

Or, is annealing REALLY that critical to long range accuracy and I'm missing the boat on this?

[jwrowland77]

I think annealing the necks goes hand in hand with turning the necks. That way there's a consistent and even release.

[Mike / Tx]

I got into annealing cases years ago. My main reason was for my .243, and then my 25-06. For either of them the necks for whatever reason would split far quicker than anything else I had on hand. It wasn't that I had any shortage of cases nor was there any shortage that I couldn't simply order up another 1K of them whenever I wanted too, I simply got tired of it and did something about it.

With a newer project my 25-06 AI, I purchased 100ea. of brand new Winchester, Remington, and Lapua brass all in 30-06 as it was going to need to be fire formed anyway. I necked them all down to get a good crush fit when I closed the bolt so I made sure that the cases stayed up against the bolt when fired. I took 20 form each batch to start with and did the forming, and fortunately didn't loose any or have any that didn't fully form on the first firing. Then I separated out 10 each form there, and started playing with loads. One set of the 10 I did everything with, I annealed the necks, I trimmed to exact length, and set up my outside neck trimmer and all. I was checking groups at 300yds with these and comparing them to the other batch with regard to load velocity and accuracy. Same loads across the board in both cases.

My results for this particular rifle showed nothing greatly improved with anything I did other than annealing the necks kept them from splitting after 6 loads. In the nothing done batch, I had 2 split the neck at the 6 load, another one after that and three more on the 9th load. After that I concluded that after the 3rd firing I can anneal and keep on keeping on. I am up to the 12 firing on those original 10 that I annealed and trimmed up with all the extras. Since that initial prep however I haven't done anything but anneal and trim to lenght.

What did come as a surprise however, was that I have found nothing was gained with regard to using the Lapua cases over the Win or Rem cases. They will all shoot within 2" with a mixed or straight brand batch. For me that means more than all the other tricks I have tried. I can grab up any of the empty cases, mixed or not, and load with confidence that I will be able to put the bullet within a 2" or better spot at 300yds. That is/was to me intended the goal.

[chiefr]

I use a propane torch and tape over most of the air inlet so the flame is cooler (reducing flame). I hold the brass by the head, rotating it in the flame and drop it in water when it gets too hot to hold. With a properly adjusted flame (just takes some trial and error), I get annealing stains that you need calipers to see any difference.

It's impossible to over heat the head region as you'd have 3rd degree burns on your fingers. The reduced flame makes it impossible to over heat the neck region because it can't get that hot before your fingers start burning.

For several years, all the gloom and doom on the internet had me convinced that a home annealer could not do a consistent, safe job without spending big bucks on automation or the annoyances of applying (and remove) Tempilaq or similar to every single case.

It's simply not true. Easy as pie. It doesn't have to be that complicated if you understand what's happening and the temperatures and time required.

Probably the best advice on this thread. I have formed many 7.7 Jap, 8x57, 7.
65 cases to name a few to feed my milsurps. Never used any of that expensive crap some salesman or gun writer says I can't live without. Water, pan and propane works. Fingers or tip-over gets the job done.

[RC20]

First though I may not buy into what Brian is saying, that does not mean I have discounted it. I am chewing my way through this arguing with myself as much as arguing here. Arguing in the sense of a hard pressed discussion.

Brian: What specific make and model are you using?

Unfortunately my torch is a newer type that does not have the vent holes in it.

I could get one that does I suppose, but that's either going to cost a few bucks for a auto lighter type or have to use the striker which I dislike (my problem of course and not the same as soldering where its on and off a lot .

I don't get dumping in water, if the finger sensing works then its going to cool down as soon as you remove from the flame. All I have read is that’s a waste of time (soft landing?)

I did a bit of playing with the hot finger thing and did not care for it but that may be the faster heat build up from the straight torch.

Will see how I do in the long run and how I continue to approach this.

As noted, the cases so far did not have a permanent finish change (the color is coming off in tumbling) so at least I did not go to far.

The cases are chamfering much better and bullets seating easier (and the dies are not as picky about lube).

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by RC20

Brian: What specific make and model are you using?

Just bought it a few months ago at Ace Hardware. It's a BernzOmatic TS800.



I tape it like this, only the front hole is open:










I drop it in the water because brass conducts heat very, very quickly and I don't want to take any chance of annealing the head. Plus, I dip my fingers in the water to "start fresh" each time and they get really hot and it hurts.

[RC20]

Brian: thanks, I can see the hot fingers as that was my issue.

I might bring my work torch home and try it, I think its got the same vent setup. HOme one does not

[Brian Pfleuger]

You know you've got the air right when you have what looks like a large candle flame. It should be gentle, "wavy", lazy like a candle not like a typical torch, rocket engine looking/sounding.

When it hurts your fingers, drop it in the water.

[Elkins45]

I do the "drop it when it starts to hurt method" as well, but in one of Dean Grinnell's books he talks about standing them up in a pan of water so the heads are submerged. You heat the neck until you see the color change, then just tip them over. Seems like a good idea.

I anneal because it makes my brass last much longer, or whenever I'm case forming in the resizing die to reduce losses from split necks. It is worth the effort IMO.

[bfoosh006]

Consistent neck release tension can dramatically improve the size of your groups.

I really think it is something that we ( as reloaders ) take for granted. We do everything we can do to make our brass more uniform... but annealing is an hard to measure ( with common hand tools ) so we don't think much about it.

There have been numerous articles explaining the value of consistent neck release tension, from better accuracy to fixing that annoying flyer.

Maybe we are reading more about it because it is working.

[Bart B.]

I've never annealed brass.

I get a couple dozen plus reloads per .308 Win case.

And a dozen plus on 30 caliber magnum cases. Never observed any accuracy issues.

Neck tension was the minimum needed and remained consistant enough to not require higher sight settings at the longer ranges. I minimally resized fired cases and don't use expander balls.