Cutting 45-70 down to 1.8" case length

[nch_2018]

I live in Indiana and the rifle regulations for deer suck. Must fire a bullet of at least .357" in diameter have a minimum case length of 1.16" and max length of 1.8" I am looking into purchasing a rifle to trim cases back to 1.8", specifically a 45-70. If I do this can I use regular 45-70 dies to reload? Would it be easier to do this with some other caliber, like 444 marlin, 35 remington, etc.

[jeager106]

I have no idea on cutting the 45-70 back but why not get a rifle in .44 mag or
.45 Colt?
The .357 mag is pretty decent from a carbine barrel also.
Just a thought.
Getting what you want accounts for everything tho.
I agree those regs are really strange & don't make sense to me.
Ohio just allowed about 20 calibers for rifles chambered for straight walled
cases. 45-70 included.
I have that & .45 Colt, .44 mag, & two .357s, all Marlins so I'm set.

[Sevens]

Perhaps I've missed the obvious...

Why not just start with something that is:
--legal according to those regs
--capable for the game you seek
--available in it's original form
--easy to find on the market

Like...
.44 Mag? .460 or .500 Magnum?

*edit* Yep, like he said above me!

[nch_2018]

Originally Posted by Sevens

Perhaps I've missed the obvious...

Why not just start with something that is:
--legal according to those regs
--capable for the game you seek
--available in it's original form
--easy to find on the market

Like...
.44 Mag? .460 or .500 Magnum?

*edit* Yep, like he said above me!

I would love a .460 but can't find them anywhere in my price range. I can go get a 45-70 or 444 handi rifle at my local gunship for less than 300. The cheapest .460 there is an $800 ruger.

[Elkins45]

Your seater die might be too long for the cut back 45/70 case but the sizer would work.

You mentioned buying a Handi-rifle: why not save yourself some hassle and just buy one in 44 magnum?

[JT-AR-MG42]

Sounds like they only want pistol calibers. Good on you for thinking outside the box! while staying completely legal.

You could look into ordering .45-60 dies. They are not a special order anymore.

Like Elkins mentioned.
The newer 45-70 seating die and flare die both will be too long to bell the mouth or to remove case flare and put any sort of a crimp on the bullet.

Having flared the case for a slug might make it tough to chamber in a single shot with no mechanical leverage
SO, you simply need to cut down both dies die with a band saw (or chop saw) and then put a bevel (to remove burrs - can be done with a rat tail file) back on the bottom interior of the die.
I would want neck tension and a slight crimp on a .45-70 shooting smokeless powder.

I did this for loading both my 45-60 (.45-70 dies) and .45 Schofield (.45 Colt dies) for many years before the speciality dies were commonly available and they worked just fine.
And it's cheaper than a $500 barrel difference.

I would think the .444 would have the same situation?, but one could possibly use a .44 magnum seating die to finish seating and remove case flare.

I do not believe the .35 Remington dies would need any modification to let you use the short neck cases in a single shot (no magazine recoil to require crimping).

JT

[ammo.crafter]

The .444 is a great round that I've been using for many, many years. Brass can be cut down on a bullet trimmer such as the RCBS,

That being said, go to bellm.com for lots of info on straight wall cartridges to hunt with in your beck of the woods.

The best I have found is the .357 MAXIMUM. This round gives .35 Remington performance from a straight wall pistol case.

[Jim Watson]

I have not been faced with this situation but on the theoretical side, I see two problems.

1. The .45-70 and .444 Marlin cases are slightly tapered, not perfectly straight. If you cut them off to 1.8", what will the new mouth I.D. be? Small enough to seat a bullet firmly?

2. What will be the accuracy when shooting a 1.8" case jumping the bullet across a 2.1" chamber? This used to be fairly common with .45-70s to have something to shoot in a .45-90, but I never heard anybody say it shot WELL.

[44 AMP]

Like Elkins mentioned.
The newer 45-70 seating die and flare die both will be too long to bell the mouth or to remove case flare and put any sort of a crimp on the bullet.

I don't know what "newer" dies you are talking about. Remember we are only talking about 0.3" inches difference in length. Standard dies have that much (and much more) adjustment in the flaring and seating stems.

Where you might run into trouble is with crimping in a standard die. If your seating die is too long to allow crimping the shortened case (die base hits shellholder before crimp shoulder crimps case) the simplest solution is to have 0.3" or slightly more taken off the bottom of the die body. Then you can adjust that die to crimp the shorter cases.

As to the accuracy of firing the shorter round in the longer chamber, theory says it should be less accurate than "proper" length rounds. Practical shooting might not show a difference. Big bore rifles tend to show a greater indifference to small variances. In other words, something that might be an accuracy killer in a .22 might be ignored by a .45. You just won't know until you shoot your individual gun and ammo.

If you do decide to go the shortened .45-70 route, I would recommend you carry both a copy of the hunting regs, and a tape measure (or other recognized measuring instrument) in your hunting kit. And, of course, be certain that ALL the ammo you have on/with you meets the legal requirements. ONE round measuring 1.85" case length could get you a ticket, or worse. Since you are making the ammo, it is clearly your responsibility to ensure all of it meets the requirements.

If you were shooting factory ammo, and for some reason it wasn't within legal specs (its still your fault, you bought it), but you might be able to claim ignorance if its one single round out of spec.

Good luck!

[F. Guffey]

I live in Indiana and the rifle regulations for deer suck. Must fire a bullet of at least .357" in diameter have a minimum case length of 1.16" and max length of 1.8" I am looking into purchasing a rifle to trim cases back to 1.8", specifically a 45-70.

Chambering a rifle for the modified 45/70 case would work, but I can see all kinds of problems with free bore and off the lands etc.. I can not imagine how much pressure would be lost between the chamber and bullet in the form of blow by, then there would be gas cutting meaning the problem would get worst.

F. Guffey

[nch_2018]

I am going to seat the bullet farther out so that there is still the same OAL just a 1.8" case.

[Sevens]

I would love a .460 but can't find them anywhere in my price range. I can go get a 45-70 or 444 handi rifle at my local gunship for less than 300. The cheapest .460 there is an $800 ruger.

I know the T/C Encore rifle can be outfitted with a .500 S&W Magnum barrel, I would imagine that the same outfit makes a .460 barrel, but I don't know.

[totaldla]

Originally Posted by nch_2018

I live in Indiana and the rifle regulations for deer suck. Must fire a bullet of at least .357" in diameter have a minimum case length of 1.16" and max length of 1.8" I am looking into purchasing a rifle to trim cases back to 1.8", specifically a 45-70. If I do this can I use regular 45-70 dies to reload? Would it be easier to do this with some other caliber, like 444 marlin, 35 remington, etc.

Just a point of clarification - do you mean case length or COL? Big difference.

Assuming you mean case length, be aware that the 45-70 is a tapered case - not straightwalled. So as you remove .3", you are reducing the neck tension holding the bullet (to prevent setback). If you shoot them only in a single-shot - no big deal. But a magazine tube is different. I do know that a neck-size die (Lyman short neck size) will allow you to size the neck area further than any full-length die and you may be able to overcome the taper.

Some bullets like the Remington 405gr JSP have multiple crimp grooves that will allow you to seat the bullet farther out to maintain the same case capacity - which will make finding a safe load much easier. The back crimp groove in the above mentioned would be just about .3".

Have fun!

[F. Guffey]

trim cases back to 1.8", specifically a 45-70.

Trimming the 45/70 to 1.800" would leave a gap between the end of the trimmed case of .308" and the position of the neck of a untrimmed case and the difference in diameter could be .020".

http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC...Government.pdf

F. Guffey

[totaldla]

Originally Posted by F. Guffey

Trimming the 45/70 to 1.800" would leave a gap between the end of the trimmed case of .308" and the position of the neck of a untrimmed case and the difference in diameter could be .020".

The difference in minimum chamber is only .002" at 1.8 - not .020" - unless I'm misreading the drawing.

[F. Guffey]

I was thinking my fast math failed me....again. I dug out the calculator sure enough, if I trim a 2.100" length case to 1.800" I find it necessary to trim .300" from the case.

difference in diameter could be .020".

between the trimmed case and chamber at the mouth of the trimmed case.

F. Guffey

[Hunter Customs]

If you are dead set on 45 caliber and the Handi rifle can be purchased in 45 Colt that may be a good way to go if you are a hand loader.
If not, have the chamber reamed to 454 and buy factory ammo.
I'll be deer hunting with a pistol in 45 Colt caliber this year, not that I have to I just want to.

Best Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com

[nch_2018]

H&R does not make a 45 colt handi, however they make a 45/410 survivor, but if it has as much accuracy problems as my old judge did i don't want one.

[nch_2018]

I am looking for a high powered rifle so I can use 1 gun for both deer and coyotes. I own a 44 mag handi it's a good gun but I'm looking for something with more range, accuracy, and "umph".

[riverratt]

I posted this on another page but when i lived in indiana there was a smith that would take a 308 family rifle and rebore it to a .358 hoosier. That round was designed to be legal in indiana. If i recall correctly it would shoot a 180gr bulleitt at 2600 fps and a 200gr at 2400fps. It is (i think) formed from a 308 win then trimmed to length with no other mod needed.

When i was looking into getting one it was $300 to have the work done to an exsisting rifle. It may be worth calling H&R and see what it would cost to order one. That higher bc bullet should be better for long range than a big .45 bullet. Last i saw hornady was making dies for it.

[totaldla]

Originally Posted by riverratt

I posted this on another page but when i lived in indiana there was a smith that would take a 308 family rifle and rebore it to a .358 hoosier. That round was designed to be legal in indiana. If i recall correctly it would shoot a 180gr bulleitt at 2600 fps and a 200gr at 2400fps. It is (i think) formed from a 308 win then trimmed to length with no other mod needed.

A regular 308 will barely do that. How is such magic performed when you cut & resize the case down to 1.8"?

[riverratt]

As i stated before it has been awile (3 years or so) sence i looked at the ballistic data but i can assure you im close (+/- 100fps). Im just weird like that with numbers

I am not a ballistic expert by any means. But i would assume it has something to do with the larger dia. Bullet having less bearing surface on the bore resulting in less frictionand thus higher velocity. As to the case being shortened less space would create higher pressure with equal powder charge.but im sure there are thoes that know much more than me that would have a better answer.

As to the velocities i said they were advertized velocities real world results would probablly be different.

[Magnum Wheel Man]

if you are wanting something for yotes as well, you'll get much flatter trajectory with the 357 Max, & plenty of power for deer out of the carbine ( FIL dropped a Wisconsin buck at 125 yards with a 6" scoped Dan Wesson in 357 Max ) add the extra barrel length, & no barrel cylinder gap, & you probably have a gun you could shoot very reasonably to 200 yards on deer or yotes, without the expanded rainbow trajectory of a shortened 45-70 case

would be pretty easy to pick up a handi rifle in 357 magnum, & a chamber reamer for 357 max

[44 AMP]

I am not a ballistic expert by any means. But i would assume it has something to do with the larger dia. Bullet having less bearing surface on the bore resulting in less frictionand thus higher velocity. As to the case being shortened less space would create higher pressure with equal powder charge.but im sure there are thoes that know much more than me that would have a better answer.

Neither am I, but there are some things I know. I don't think a bigger bullet has less bearing surface than a smaller one, simply because is bigger. Now, a bigger diameter bullet of the same weight will have a shorter bearing surface, but I'm not sure that is equal to the same thing.

One thing the bigger bullet does have is a bigger base for the powder to push against so you get equal velocities at lower pressures.

Also, we don't know the pressure the .358 Hoosier was loaded to. Those "ballpark" numbers seem kind of high, but wht pressure level, what barrel length, etc? we don't know that.

The .300 Savage, with a case just over 1.8 will hit 2400fps with a 180gr at top end pressure for the .300 Savage. A wildcat with the same case size would easily get more than that, if loaded to a higher pressure than the .300 Savage.

[riverratt]

Okay y'all had me second guessing my memory so i did a quick search and the .358 hoosier is a shortened .358 win. It is supose to mach the velocities of a .358 win. The advertized velocities are 2650fps with a 180gr bullet and 2525fps with a 200gr bullet.

Now all that said we donot know the barrel length or the pressures that are used in this round. I have not had any real world experiance with this cartrage so i wont vouch for the true preformance of that round.

It is up to the op to research and find what will best meet there needs. As for me i settled on a .357 max but before i got it i moved to ky and now just use my 30-06. The .357 max is close to a .35 rem in preformance and makes for a great 200 yrd deer rifle, expecially with the FTX bullets.