h110 in 357mag

[skizzums]

hey guys, about to load up some jacketed HP speers 158gr, H110 powder with cci mag primers

i have never used h110, but i have read several places to not go under max load more than 3%, on hodgens website they show the start at 15 to max 16,7gr, thats more than a 10% difference, should i just dismiss the general internet forum speak and stick with the published starting load, or is there something to be said for the 3% rule

just curious, i plan to start around 15,5, loading for a 20inch barrel lever-action, if anyone has any tried and true loads with this powder in 357, let me know

thanks
nathan

[Nick_C_S]

(The following is for information only, and is not load advice.)
With the Speer Unicore HP (#4211) and the SP (#4217) bullets, I load to well over the Speer #14 published max of 15.5. It's near the Hodgdon's max - very near. And yes, I would definitely consider it a "tried n true" load recipe. Been shooting it for years. Although, very little lately because my 8-3/8" S&W 686 is a safe queen these days. I've evolved into shooting shorter barreled magnums long ago. And it's just silly to blow H110 through 3" & 4" barreled magnums - unless you're trying to produce a flame thrower.

I know of no pistol propellant more forgiving than W296/H110.

I'm sure if your lever action is of good quality, it'll have no trouble tolerating the round.

Of course, always start low and work up. It seems to me like you're on the right track.

[skizzums]

thanks nick

[Clark]

H110 can be downloaded to as little as half loads, but there has to be a serious roll crimp into the cannelure. Otherwise, the primer goes off, but the powder does not.

Lever actions are different from revolvers. The max pressure for 357 mag got downloaded years ago when thin wall chamber revolvers were made that the steel elastically stretched radially and caused the brass to stretch plasticly radially and get sticky. But lever actions do not have thin walls and do not extract 6 cases with the push of a finger tip.

Accuracy in bottle neck cartridges in rifles for me is touching the lands. But with straight wall and H110, I get the best accuracy with the firm roll crimp into the cannelure.

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

In a 38 special rifle I have worked up to double the max charge for 357 mag [6.5 gr Bullseye 158 gr is max published] before the gun jammed and the brass was hard to get out.

[Nick_C_S]

Great addition to the thread Clark.

I've often thought that old published data was more . . . "robust" with 357 Magnum than it is now. Now I know why.

[Clark]

Nick,
Can you open this usenet link via google groups?
https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=...0/cBSU4bR2jz8J

John Bercovitz was then a mechanical engineer at the JPL.
I was so moved by that 91 post about 357 mag loads, that in 2005 I recruited him to help me prove the load books were wrong about the Tokarev vs the CZ52. All he had to do was RC hardness tests on a dozen CZ52 barrels after work.

Anyway, John is the one who figured it all out.

[Nick_C_S]

Interesting read. Although a bit in depth for my non-engineering background, it still made sense. Good stuff.

[totalloser]

I have read that ball powders accelerate forcing cone erosion in revolvers and many handloaders avoid them because of this. But I don't play with revolvers or h110, so take that in context.

[skizzums]

thanks for the input, i may have to hold off for a bit before running the h110, it seems to be the first powder that has brought my cheap Lee PPm to its knees

funny cause ive used many a ball powder in the ppm, but this stuff is just too small and wont even do one crank w/o jamming up the action

btw, i have settled to start with 15,9gr, seems everyone runs the levers pretty hot w/o issue, thanks everyone

[Nick_C_S]

I have read that ball powders accelerate forcing cone erosion in revolvers

Revolvers are subject to forcing cone erosion and flame cutting.

(Flame cutting is the burning powder acting like a cutting torch, cutting a line into the top frame where the cylinder/barrel gap is.)

This is mostly a problem with today's high-powered magnums (or more specifically, the ammunition). I'm not sure, but I believe it's not so much a problem with ball powders as it is with light bullets. That would seem counter-intuitive; but I think it's because lighter bullets have more powder, and burn for longer. Maybe someone with more knowledge that me will chime in.

Guns wear out. It's part of the gig. Semi-autos have their share of issues with wear - in fact, more so.

In fact, I bought a gun yesterday because my favorite gun (S&W 686, 4"bbl) is getting flame cut. I've been using it for IDPA - and the associated extensive practice. Granted, the rounds aren't hot, but I shoot a lot of them, and sometimes rapid fire. Anyway, I bought a Smith 67 for my IDPA/practice. I'm going to put a heck of a lot of rounds thorough it, and don't care if I wear it out. My prize 686 will be spared.

[skizzums]

i have to agree nick, its not so much the powder as it is the light bullet using so much of the powder which causes issue in shorter barrels

still though, recommended not to use ball with light bullets, so i guess you can give halfthe blame to the powder

[Nick_C_S]

I don't have any long guns. But plan to get a couple lever-actions. One .357, and one .44.

I plan on loading exclusively with W296/H110 for them. Ball powder or not.

[skizzums]

yeah, i dont see why you would wanna run a 125gr 357mag, that what my 9mms are for

if you plan to get a lever in 357, and you wanna save a few bucks, i just got a new rossi 92 about a week ago, feeds anything dressed in 38 or 357 w/o any kind of issue so far



only complaint is the bullhorn rear sights, i will be ordering a peep sight soon, and after looking on ballistics by the inch, it appears that the 16inch give slightly better numbers than my 20incher, so if i could go back iw oulda got the 16, but this is already incredibly light and gives almosst no recoil even with full magnums
long stoy short, its a nice gun for 550$

[Salmoneye]

on hodgens website they show the start at 15 to max 16,7gr, thats more than a 10% difference, should i just dismiss the general internet forum speak and stick with the published starting load, or is there something to be said for the 3% rule

I have been asking questions about the discrepancies in Hodgdon's own H110/W296 load data for years now...

Not to mention published loads from reputable bullet companies using these powders...

[Real Gun]

16.0 gr is my favorite load for the heavier guns but I am referring to PowerPro 300-MP, reportedly the same powder as W296 and H110 (Guns and Ammo, Dec-Jan)

[Nick_C_S]

PowerPro 300-MP, reportedly the same powder as W296 and H110

^^ This, I haven't heard. ^^

[Nick_C_S]

the 16inch give slightly better numbers than my 20incher, so if i could go back iw oulda got the 16

But with the 16", you lose 2 rounds of mag capacity. To me, that becomes the question. One I haven't answered for myself yet. I'll probably go with the 16.

But to me, the 20" look cooler though - more "natural," for lack of a better term.

[Clark]

skizzums
..so far my only complaint is the bullhorn..

You have better get that gun off that clean kitchen counter or you will be hearing a complaint from the wife

[iraiam]

I use 15.6 grains of H110 & CCI Magnum pistol primer behind the Hornady 158 grain XTP HP (Hornady published MAX). I use this load in handguns, I'm not sure if it would be suitable for a lever gun.

I used to go through a full workup, now I only use the recommended 3% reduction rule, although I guess I'm a little outside that, I start at 15 gr. and work up to 15.6 gr.

The latest Hornady reloading manual says nothing about the 3% reduction thing, for the above recipe, it shows the starting load all the way down at 12.7 grains.

[buck460XVR]

Originally posted by skizzums:

thanks for the input, i may have to hold off for a bit before running the h110, it seems to be the first powder that has brought my cheap Lee PPm to its knees

funny cause ive used many a ball powder in the ppm, but this stuff is just too small and wont even do one crank w/o jamming up the action

btw, i have settled to start with 15,9gr, seems everyone runs the levers pretty hot w/o issue, thanks everyone

Of all the powders I use, H110/W296 seems to meter the best. I think the problem is with your measure, not the powder.

You seem to want to begin loading for your firearm at the upper end of load recipes. My question is why? I have a Rossi .357 lever. Out of all my firearms it is one of the most popular ones at the range. Not just by me, but by the others that shoot with me. Reasons are it's accuracy and it's pleasantness to shoot. Both of those are obtained by me with loads below what you want to start at. While very pleasant to shoot with mild to moderate loads, you will find the shape of the Rossi's stock will want to bite you when running "hot" loads. So if a range gun is what you are after, why hurt yourself for no reason. If you think you need that velocity for hunting game like deer, you better look for another bullet. That Speer JHP is not meant to perform terminally at 1700 fps on deer size game. Even Speer recomends the use of something else other than it's 158 JHP on deer size game. My Rossi has taken several deer, but all were with a 158gr JSP or XTP-FP and not HPs. The charge under them was 15.5. If you have Speer's loading info, than I assume you have referenced their recipes for .357 in the rifle section. If you have, I assume you've seen thier warning about using only new or once fired brass for max loads used in .357 levers. If you missed it, I suggest you go back and read it. One reason I try to load down from max, is to extend the case life of cartridges used in my levers.

As for the 16'' barrel out performing the 20'' ballistically, I have my doubts. What I have found is the 20'' does not experience the muzzle jump that the 16'' do.

Your Rossi will be a fun gun to shoot and will probably surprise you with it's accuracy. The action will smooth with use, just make sure all the screws in the receiver are tight. They tend to want to vibrate loose when the gun is shot ofter. If they loosen you will experience problems with rounds feeding from the mag and loading the mag. I had to put a taller front sight on mine, but other than that I have been quite pleased with the little lever. My favorite range round is 7.5 gr of Unique under a 158gr JHP. Very accurate and shoots like a .22 mag.

[Nick_C_S]

Great read Buck460XVR. Thanks.

I think a lot of people overlook JSP bullets. At rifle velocities, the Soft Points have excellent terminal performance and will mushroom nicely with a well placed shot.

[skizzums]

it s not that i want to stay on the max side of the load, i just usually only use cast bullets for loading 38spl for plinking, i have a limited amount of actual jacketed commercial bullets and would like to save the pricier bullets for yote loads, i am staying roughly 5% under max load, i have no interest in actually hiiting the max

i disassembled and cleaned the powder measure, just loaded 100 rounds with th h110 w/o issue, i think the screw was just a little too loose, but all my plinking loads are used with 38spl with hp38 powder under a lead cast bullet

i only have 1 pound of the h110 and wanted to load some true power 357 loads, no reason really, will probably just keep them in the stash, i dont hunt deer, i just like to experiement, thats the fun of reloading, right??

[skizzums]

as the clean counter and the wife!!!! shhhhh,,,,,,,,havent even told her i bought it yet, please dont tell her, ill break it to her eventually

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

I never cared to use H-110 in either my 357 or 44 Redhawk. Tried one time using it. It required such a heavy crimp it actually affected accuracy shot out of my 686-6". So I switched to IMR 4227. Easier ignition less crimp required a little less speed but nothing to be overly concerned about. 4227 shines when it comes to its accuracy. If I wanted a snappy muzzle blast I used Blue Dot like many others chose H-110 for that purpose. But I have found H-110 is a superb powder for my 410 shot-shell use.