Newbie to .38/.357 reloading

[Right to bear arms]

I need a little advice to get me started on loading for my S&W 686 6" barrel. I also have a Rossi 85 2" .38. I found only one box of 250 Berry plated 158 gr. RN at my local store. I've got plenty of .38 special cases as well as .357 magnum cases. What I'm asking for info. about what kind of powder to buy and approx. starting loads for low velocity/plinking loads for both calibers. Thanks a bunch!

[PA-Joe]

Plated bullets are loaded as lead so Unique would be a good starter.

[precision_shooter]

I use Accurate Arms #5 for my .38 and .357 loads.

.38spl
125gr Rainier RNFP plated
6.6gr AA5

.357
125gr Hornady XTP Jacketed
10.0gr AA5

Both are decent mid-level loads.

Can't find any 158gr bullets locally so can't help with a recipe for them. Also can't find any AA5 locally. Luckily my dad gave me about 5-6lbs of it.

[Nick_C_S]

Plated bullets are loaded as lead

Mmmm, not really. I suppose it could be viewed that way. But what is concerning about taking this approach with loading plated bullets is that you're setting yourself up for a stuck bullet if you're not careful.

Like jacketed bullets, plated bullets have more barrel friction than lead bullets. Therefore, if you load light rounds to lead data, you're going to be wandering in stuck bullet territory.

To me, a more logical approach is to load plated bullets to jacketed data, but staying away from high-pressure loads. In this case, just don't load past about 3/4 power with 357 magnum.

With 38 Special, have no concerns - just use jacketed data. A top-end 38+P round is not going to disintegrate a plated bullet.

Unique is good - especially for loading 357. I use the Berry's 158 flatpoint (#84525). The load data would translate directly over to the 158 RN's. I use 7.0g Unique. COL 1.555 (might be different with a RN). Anyway, it would make a great shooting round - especially in your 6" barrel. I wouldn't characterize it as a "plinker" though. It's probably in the 1100 fps neighborhood through a 6" (I haven't chronographed the recipe). If you want lighter, you could move it down to 6.4g's or so (and would be a good starting point anyway). I have no experience below that. (These load figures are within {and below} Speer #14 data for jacketed 158's.)

For 38 Special - and especially for your 2" snubbie - I would recommend a faster propellant like Bullseye, W231, or AA2. You can use Unique for your 38 rounds, but it wouldn't be ideal - it's a little slow for the application (low velocity/plinkers).

If you have a roll crimp die, go extremely light with the crimp - just take the mouth flair out, basically. Ideally, you want to use a taper crimp die. I have one because I load a lot of plated bullets and lead wadcutters. If you load a lot of plinkers, I recommend getting one. They also preserve your brass by being easier on the case mouth.

[zxcvbob]

I would say Bullseye. It is a great powder for all power levels of .38 Special, and you can goose it a little for .357 Magnum. You will not get the .357 performance you could from something like Blue Dot or 2400, but you don't want that anyway (especially with plated bullets)

HP-38 (a.k.a W231) is supposed to be a good one also. And Titegroup if you are extra careful not to double or triple charge a case.

[Right to bear arms]

Y'all are worth your weight in gold (or lead if your talking bullets!) I'm probably going to set my sights on Bullseye with medium loads. I find the info about staying away from minimum loads interesting. I certainly don't want to mess with a stuck bullet. The Berry box says not to exceed 1200 fps and keep it in the medium range. What would be a good medium range weight of Bullseye for .38 special? for .357 magnum? (normal caveat about working loads up carefully and holding no one responsible except the reloader)

[zxcvbob]

http://www.castpics.net/LoadData/Fre.../Alliant05.pdf

The handgun data start on page 40-something

[Nick_C_S]

I don't load a Bullseye/158g/38Spl combination. But if I did, I'd start in the 3.5g range. And if it burned clean and was accurate, I would see no need to move up from there. (Bullseye is a very "residuey" powder, no matter what; so "clean" is a relative term. With Bullseye, "clean" means no powdery or flaky by-product; just a superfine residue.)

Bullseye is quite the snappy powder. And I would actually shy away from it with 357/158g loads. That is not to say it can't be done. I'm sure someone has worked up a 357/158g load that shoots great. I just choose not to do it because there are other propellents that can achieve the same result with much more margin for error (AA2). And the extra case length is superfluous for the application. I just have the experience (30 years; and lots n lots with Bullseye) to know that Bullseye likes to misbehave when it's being used for just about anything but low-pressure target-type loads ("low pressure" is also why it's so well suited for 45ACP). I don't have any official pressure data, but I have no doubt that as you increase a Bullseye load, at some point, pressure will take a big jump with little forewarning it was about to do so (pressure spike).

Please don't think I'm knocking Bullseye. It's a great propellant and I use lots of it. It is exceptional for its intended purpose. And that purpose is target and medium-low pressure general purpose shooters. In that role, it's second-to-none for consistency.

[zxcvbob]

I disagree completely about Bullseye and high pressure loads. I've found it to be unusually consistent as I've increased the powder up into the +P range in 9mm -- just as high pressure as .357 Magnum.

That doesn't mean it's a good choice for full-power or almost-full-power .357 Mag, but it'll work just fine at the low-end magnum range. Just use the published data and you'll be okay.

Blue Dot, on the other hand very quickly goes from sooty to clean to spiky as you go up.

YMMV, of course.

[E.J.W.]

Just another point on Bullseye...
I also shoot a 686 Smith and while competing for years at the local club shooting my own cast 148 gr double end wadcutters seated flush over 2.7 gr of Bullseye, the underside of the top strap began to develop a "cut" in line with the cylinder gap. Keep in mind I was shooting hundreds of these loads each week. I was doing a lot of needed practice and then competition on the weekends.
A trusted gunsmith advised any further damage could be avoided by using a bit slower powder that did more burning in the barrel and less while passing the through the cylinder gap.
That was back in late 80's. Today I still have that same 686 Smith and after first switching to AA#2 then to Unique and later to Universal there has been no additional "cutting" of the top strap. I don't shoot as many rounds as I used to as changes in my life took away from my time at the club.
You have a great revolver that will last forever and you've already received some very knowledgeable replies. Good luck and good shooting.

[Nick_C_S]

I disagree completely about Bullseye and high pressure loads. I've found it to be unusually consistent as I've increased the powder up into the +P range in 9mm -- just as high pressure as .357 Magnum.

That doesn't mean it's a good choice for full-power or almost-full-power .357 Mag, but it'll work just fine at the low-end magnum range. Just use the published data and you'll be okay.

zxcvbob, I think we're in agreement, but just taking different approaches. Bullseye will definitely perform in high pressure loads just as you explain. I know from first-hand experience that you are correct.

But when I think of Bullseye, the first thing that crosses my mind is: "target loads." There was a time when I used to experiment with Bullseye and although it never outright bit me (gun damage), it growled and snarled a number of times (high pressure signs with the brass).

I've found that fast ball powders - Accurate Arms #2 being an excellent example - are much better suited for those types of applications. A 357Mag/125g JHP short-barrel, low-flash defense round would be the kind of round I'm talking about. Or a 115g HP for 9mm. AA2 is much more forgiving because its pressure curve is more linear. Bullseye can do the job and will make consistent rounds (consistency is the hallmark of Bullseye). It's just working up to that point with B'eye that makes me nervy. I'd just rather use a powder that's is a little more docile at high pressures. Just a different approach.

[Nick_C_S]

I also shoot a 686 Smith and while competing for years at the local club shooting my own cast 148 gr double end wadcutters seated flush over 2.7 gr of Bullseye,

Interesting read E.J.W.

I load my 148 DEWC's with 2.9g's of Bullseye and shoot them by the hundreds through my 686.

I should take a look at its top strap - seriously. I got it in 1986 and it's my favorite gun - ever. So I don't want to lose it to flame cutting.

[mikejonestkd]

I also load tons of 148 DEWC over mild loads of bullseye.
Just came up from the basement, where I checked every one of my revolvers top straps for flame cutting.

I think its a non issue....based on a small sample size of 9 .38 and .357 smiths.

YMMV

[Nick_C_S]

I used to load 110g Sierra HP's with so much W296 it would reach the top of the case (357), and shoot them through my 8-3/8" 686 (not the 686 mentioned above - I have 3 of them). After showing off my "4-foot flame thrower" rounds at the range one day, a crusty/worldly looking old guy calmly came over to me during a cease-fire period, and politely explained to me how I'm cutting my gun in half with those rounds.

That was the first I ever heard of flame cutting. And the last I ever loaded that round.

[Nick_C_S]

Blue Dot, on the other hand very quickly goes from sooty to clean to spiky as you go up.

It does indeed.

I cut my loading teeth with Blue Dot. I'm surprised I didn't destroy 3 guns. But by sheer luck I didn't; because I loaded with more bravery than common sense when I first started.

I stopped loading with Blue Dot many years ago. I'm sure it's a good powder in the right application. But now days I load almost entirely with faster powders and more common sense

[lee n. field]

What I'm asking for info. about what kind of powder to buy and approx. starting loads for low velocity/plinking loads for both calibers. Thanks a bunch!

Bullseye, 3.7 grains, for the .38.

[Nick_C_S]

(Sorry RTBA, I didn't mean to hijack your post with my walks down memory lane. I yield the floor now )

[bedbugbilly]

E.J.W. - Interesting . . . i'm going to copy your post and put it in my loading book for future reference as I currently use BE quite a bit.

I'm just curious - what is your "sweet" load now with the Universal that replaced the 2.7 of BE?

Thanks.

[Right to bear arms]

I do have a half a lb of 2400 0n hand that I use for my 44 magnum (6" 629) What if I load 3.5 Gr Bullseye for all my .38 special shoot around loads and use the 2400 for the .357 magnum. You guys are great! . . If only our gov't could answer questions as intelligently as Firing Line Forums!

[44 AMP]

Here's a couple of points to consider, fast powders work best for light to medium loads, slower powders are better for medium to heavy loads.

The .38special and the .357 Magnum cases have enough space for a double or possibly triple load of Bullseye or other fast powder. Extreme diligence is called for when using these powders, because a double charge (and that may be 6gr instead of 3) will almost certainly damage or even blow up a gun.

A double charge of a fast powder can be hard to see. Standard practice (prior to progressive reloaders) was to put charged cases in the loading block, and look at them all carefully, under a good light, before putting the bullets on. You look for differences in the height of the powder in the cases. Anything visually different (high OR low) get removed and redone.

Using a medium burn rate powder (where the charge in a .38 will be 5-7gr, makes a double charge much easier to spot, as it will nearly fill the case.

Slow powders like 2400, cannot fit a full double charge in the case, and when the powder spills out, its real easy to spot!

[fshfindr]

I like 3.5gr of unique for my 38spec and 5.8gr for my 357. Very good out of my Colt Trooper 8"bbl. Home made 148gr LWC's

[Right to bear arms]

I'm pretty well committed to Bullseye or Unique. But a guy I know at church who shoots in revolver competitions swears by 231, Says it's cleaner.

[Lost Sheep]

All great advice so far, so I will not repeat it. But one EXTREMELY important thing I did not see (sorry if I missed it) is mention of getting a couple of loading manuals and checking the load recipes in them. I did not see where you are getting your load data now.

Any recipe you find from casual sources (in person or on the internet or anywhere else) should be checked against authoritative sources. A misplaced decimal or mis-typed "7" instead of a "4" could be disastrous.

Lost Sheep

[zxcvbob]

What about Bullseye AND Unique? (actually, I'm kind of serious)

[44 AMP]

What about Bullseye AND Unique? (actually, I'm kind of serious)

Why wouldn't you be serious? For many years, my go to powders for handguns were Bullseye, Unique, and 2400. With a few specific exceptions, which are uncommon, you can load the full range of all handgun rounds with these powders.

Sure, there is a fair amount of overlap, but with this combination you can tailor your loads in all of the power classes, for best efficiency, as well as accuracy.

One of the places where accuracy is aided is by using a powder that fills the majority of the powder space. Things vary, but generally, the more the powder fills the case, the more uniform it tends to be when it ignites, and more uniform means more accurate.

.38&.357 are kind of in the middle. More case capacity than the smaller auto pistol rounds, but smaller than the big .44s and .45s.

Think of it this way, your max pressure is what it is. What speed you get depends on how you get there. Fast powders (bullseye, 231, etc) basically give the bullet a good hard slap, and watch it go sailing away.

Med powders (unique, etc) give the bullet a good push on a short run, like the guys launching the bobsled.

Slow powders (2400 etc) get behind, push hard, and keep pushing all the way to the muzzle.

Now, of course, there's a lot more to it than that, but that's the general effect.

Economics plays a part, too. Especially for beginning loaders who are always on a tight budget. If your .38 load is 3.5gr Bullseye (and you don't spill any) you get 2000 rnds from a pound of powder. If your load is 8gr of 2400, you get 875 rnds.

Right now, what powder you can actually get seems to be the most important thing.