Thoughts on "survival rifles"

simonrichter · November 23, 2013, 12:13 PM

Since there is a lot of talk about "survival rifles", and I recently I happened to discover where this persisting concept of a "zombie apocalypse" comes from (namely one certain TV series, I suppose), I spent some thoughts on the issue and invite everybody to donate his own 2 cents.

1.) There are two completely different concepts of "survival rifles":

A) a light backpack and / or take down rifle that you can still carry into the wilderness when you are otherwise unarmed (the latter either because of weight issues or because it is simply not your main concern unless something unforeseeable might occur)

B) a sturdy and low-maintenance allround rifle that can be held in store for any event where it may be needed (rough times of any kind).

For both, I'd say they should be:

- easy to operate, also for the occasional unskilled
- low tech (bolt action, maybe)
- sturdy but light (synthetic stock)
- versatile

I see, e.g., no point in declaring a full-powered battle rifle the ideal survival rifle - if you DO have the skill and training you need for proper handling of such a weapon, then it is most likely your main rifle for everyday use, anyway.

While for a survival rifle in the sense of A) everything is settled with an AR7, for B) I'd consider .22lr a little too weak. On the other hand, it has to be something where ammo is easy to get... Thus, I have chosen a .223 bolt for myself.

Jimmy96a1 · November 23, 2013, 12:46 PM

They make .22 rifles that fold down enough to fit in a small backpack. Thats all you really need for survival if its all you got. You wont be bringing down any bears but you could kill a deer if your sneaky. Its way easyer to carry 1000 rounds of .22 than the same amount of .223 also. But for bunnys,squirrels and birds wich will be your most common delicious snacks in the wild, a .22 will do fine. Dont think a .223 would leave much meat on a squrrel lol. If your talking about surviving in hostile territory and you need somthing that can kill pretty much anything inside 200 yards thats not gonna be a complete hinderance get a .308 lol im no exper but thats my 2 cents.

Art Eatman · November 23, 2013, 01:20 PM

The big problem that I've noticed in discussions of this sort is that "survival" spans many different scenarios. Thus my oft-repeated comment that there's no such thing as "One size fits all."

Just as one example: You crash your light plane in the middle of a mountainous, forested wilderness, and have a badly sprained ankle. The ELT works, but choppers can't land. While you wait for rescue, do you rely on a .22 for ptarmigan and hares? Or a .375 H&H against grizzlies?

The various scenarios one envisions determine the choice of rifle.

tobnpr · November 23, 2013, 04:37 PM

I think the lightweight "scout" rifle, as defined, is about as close to the one rifle I'd have, if I could have only one rifle for "survival"...

ChasingWhitetail91 · November 23, 2013, 05:43 PM

my survival "rifle" would be a shotgun. slugs for big critters, shot for small critters. not to mention rounds havent been hard to find since the great depression.

Buzzcook · November 23, 2013, 06:22 PM

The problem with a shotgun for lost in the wilderness scenarios is the weight of the ammo.

If we're only lost for a short time or not wandering around the weight isn't a big deal. When the time is long and we have to travel that weight becomes a big deal.

I'd also have to ask how you got lost in the wilderness with a shotgun and a few cases of ammo.

g.willikers · November 23, 2013, 06:32 PM

Another choice is the combo shotgun-rifles.
Like a 20 gauge and a small rifle caliber.
Being of the break open design, they can also be taken down for easier packing.

Doyle · November 23, 2013, 06:51 PM

The problem with takedown rifles like the AR-7 is that they are notoriously inaccurate.

Boomer58cal · November 23, 2013, 07:00 PM

Quote:

my survival "rifle" would be a shotgun. slugs for big critters, shot for small critters. not to mention rounds havent been hard to find since the great depression.

To limited on range in my opinnion.

Quote:

The problem with a shotgun for lost in the wilderness scenarios is the weight of the ammo.

You could have 2-3 .223 or 7.62x39 for the weight of a 2 3/4 12 ga shell. .22 LR would be even better. This is also a hugely affected by your situation.

Are you on foot, are you in a car, or are you sheltered in place in the building or other shelter? If I'm sheltered in I want semiauto .50 BMG, in a car I want an AK with a folding stock and on foot I want the lightest gun ammo combo I can get that will reach 200-300 yards. Preferably semi auto and mag fed.

Are you by yourself or in a group? If you're in a group, do your guns use the same ammo? Common ammo is important but it's always nice to have at least one heavy bolt action rifle in your group.

I'm not packing a 12 gauge if I'm on foot, it would be an excellent choice if you were barricaded in somewhere though.

For a backpack rifle, I like the any .22 lr, 22 Hornet or .223 sized cartridge in less you're in bear country that is. Then I could see this going a little bigger then.

Boomer

Bigfatts · November 23, 2013, 07:36 PM

I always thought the Keltec folding rifles would be great in a survival role. Either the SU16 or the Sub 2000. Both are lightweight, take readily available mags and ammo. The SU16 even stores mags right in the stock. Either rifle would be ok for close range hunting or defense.

semi_problomatic · November 23, 2013, 07:39 PM

^^^^^ hahaha, great minds think alike....

I always liked the idea of the keltec su-16 for a survival rifle. Stores 2 10 round mags (or one 20 or 30) in stock of the gun, folds in half, has a simple bolt design, handi little bipod built in... It's not perfect, or even all that great compared to many guns... But it fits most folks need and description for a survival rifle.

jmr40 · November 23, 2013, 07:48 PM

Mine.

http://ruger.com/products/1022Takedown/models.html

Realistically this would work for everything but large predators and I think the realistic need for that is way over rated. If I were really concerned a suitable handgun in addition to the rifle could serve that role.

ThomasT · November 23, 2013, 08:20 PM

I always liked this rifle for a survival type gun. The ammo isn't a lot heavier than regular 22LR and it is about 3 times as powerful. It cost more but so what. Anything except air gun ammo cost more than 22 rounds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGeZYqMQ7gw

I wish I could find a beat up version of this gun for a hundred bucks or so and I would make the mods and have one of the best truck guns around.

Also this. A great article for a survival rifle.

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/survival.htm

leadcounsel · November 23, 2013, 08:45 PM

If by 'survival' you mean battling nature, securing some food, and adequate self defense, I would agree that either a 12 gauge and an assortment of birdshot and slugs is a great weapon. Or, an AR15 folds in half by popping two pins. A couple loaded mags gives you a lot of ammo.

Either of these comes in at under 10 pounds. You'd be hard pressed to come up with a realistic survival situation in the US that requires more than one of these with a few pounds of ammo.

pathdoc · November 23, 2013, 08:57 PM

If what you want is something to get you basic meat to eat, a .22LR/.410 combo has to be given consideration. In which case, my vote is for the current Savage Model 42 - small, light, handy - and at close range, the .410 with a solid slug might even get you a small deer. Yes, I know it's far from ideal, but desperate times require desperate measures.

olddav · November 23, 2013, 09:47 PM

H&R Survival rifle comes in .223 and .308.

Boomer58cal · November 23, 2013, 09:48 PM

Ratshooter...

That's a neat little gun, I hear they're pretty accurate too. It would be fun to shoot rats

I think I'd still take my Savage 340 in 22 hornet for a survival gun though. I like the fact that it's reloadable. You can actually reload 6 or 700 rds per pound of powder! How's that for efficacy? My handloads make 900 lbs of energy, 2 or 3 times what a 22 magnum makes and a thousand rounds weighs what 5 pounds.

The one big advantage 22 Magnum has over the Hornet is ammo availability. You can't find it anywhere. Although most of the rimfire cartridges have been pretty tough to keep in stock this year.

In a SHTF I'm a big fan or rimfire cartridges as a secondary weapon system, but I don't think they should be your primary weapons. I'd like to have something with a little more wallop for when things get up close and personal or for when you really need to reach out and touch someone. For that I prefer something like .223/7.62x39 or even a pistol caliber carbine.

Boomer

PetahW · November 23, 2013, 10:16 PM

.

Regardless of whatever firearm's available/used, the ultimate survival tool is between your ears..........

A person can have the best of anything, but won't survive very long if their head's not on straight.

.

hbhobby · November 23, 2013, 10:26 PM

I got a savage 24 in .30-30 / 20 ga specifically for this purpose. It breaks down fairly easillto fit in a pack. Will kill just about anything i am going to encounter and isnt too terribly heavy.

Waspinator · November 23, 2013, 10:28 PM

This one is cool as all get out...

http://www.innogun.de/en/rifles/hybrid.html

lot of caliber choices. The upper could be a 12 gauge and the lower a reapeating/magazine fed high caliber rifle. Or, you can chose 22lr/ .308 .. or what ever... thats cool!

MarkCO · November 23, 2013, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Thus, I have chosen a .223 bolt for myself.

That is cool and all, but given the matter, you might want to consider getting an action, barrel, stock and trigger assembly to go with the bolt.

If someone came to my door and said "Put one gun with ammo, one knife, one set of binos and some clothes and paracord in a bag and lets get gone forever" I know exactly which gun I would choose. My S&W 657. I can shoot 6 shots into 6" at 100 yards in 10 seconds. I can hit a man sized target at 200 yards 1 for 1. I have killed grouse, rabbits, deer, and elk with it, plus 4 rattlers with one dose of birdshot each. Plus, the maintenance is low. If you know how, other cartridges can be "de-milled" and made into passable revolver fodder if needed.

The 657 is a .41 magnum, but any 44 Mag or 45 Colt can do the same things. It is portable, concealable, accurate deployable under a wide range of circumstances, and it handles a wide range of ammo. From 800 to 1500 fps with JHPs, solids and birdshot.

If you let me choose 2...then it might take some thinking to choose the best two, but one is easy, a magnum revolver for sure. A Henry Mare's leg is about the only weapon that I think would be better, but I don't have one yet.

osirus82 · November 24, 2013, 12:57 PM

curious how many people a have chosen their go to survival gun.. So the question has to be asked- how many of you folks actually have (that great survival rifle?)

If i had to choose one that I do own I think i would take my Sub2K glock .40-- it accepts other glock mags - 30 rounders- it folds up-- it fits inside a camleback with plenty of room for ammo-and mags, Its like 5lbs fully loaded- and is super accurate.

I did have other gun options like sig522 .22 with 25 round mags, or Fnar .308 with 5-20 round mags, or 12g semi or pump.

that innogun hybrid looks great= wonder how many thousands it is. id buy one.

Deja vu · November 24, 2013, 01:06 PM

This is my opinion but a survival rifle will likely be used to get food in hostial territory. I think some thing quiet (suppressed) is very important.

Mine is a suppressed 22lr or a suppressed 45-70 (yes I have both) I also think its good that they dont looks like (evil) black tactical riles that draw attention but look more like your grandfathers hunting rifle.

The other survival gun I thing would work well is a 12ga. I doubt any other gun can put food on the table like a 12ga.

Boomer58cal · November 24, 2013, 01:39 PM

Quote:

I also thing its good that they dont looks like (evil) black tactical riles that draw attention but look more like your grandfathers hunting rifle.

Before SHTF you're probably right, But once its hit the fan I'd much rather have the fear factor of a 30 round mag. The media has condition the average person to fear evil black rifles and I think that should be used to your advantage.

In this day in age people are much more deterred by a group of guys with AK's than a couple guys with ther grandpa's deer rifles.

If you really think a wood stock would help then I'd get an SKS or a hunting variant of the saiga with a wood stock. They maintain most of the advantages of getting yourself an AK but without the evil black features. Heck you could even throw a 5 round mag in you're saiga if it makes you feel better.

Just my thoughts.

Boomer

Colt46 · November 24, 2013, 01:45 PM

It floats(if stowed in the case), is lightweight, accurate, compact(takedown) and you can carry a lot of .22lr to go with it. It's a short range small game getter(medium game if you get close and pick your shots), and will be acceptable for defense against people as well.
I wouldn't really think it was optimal in dangerous game country, but will feed you in just about any rural or backwoods environment out there.

November 23, 2013, 12:13 PM	#1
simonrichter Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 2011 Location: Austria Posts: 771	Thoughts on "survival rifles" Since there is a lot of talk about "survival rifles", and I recently I happened to discover where this persisting concept of a "zombie apocalypse" comes from (namely one certain TV series, I suppose), I spent some thoughts on the issue and invite everybody to donate his own 2 cents. 1.) There are two completely different concepts of "survival rifles": A) a light backpack and / or take down rifle that you can still carry into the wilderness when you are otherwise unarmed (the latter either because of weight issues or because it is simply not your main concern unless something unforeseeable might occur) B) a sturdy and low-maintenance allround rifle that can be held in store for any event where it may be needed (rough times of any kind). For both, I'd say they should be: - easy to operate, also for the occasional unskilled - low tech (bolt action, maybe) - sturdy but light (synthetic stock) - versatile I see, e.g., no point in declaring a full-powered battle rifle the ideal survival rifle - if you DO have the skill and training you need for proper handling of such a weapon, then it is most likely your main rifle for everyday use, anyway. While for a survival rifle in the sense of A) everything is settled with an AR7, for B) I'd consider .22lr a little too weak. On the other hand, it has to be something where ammo is easy to get... Thus, I have chosen a .223 bolt for myself. __________________ "Get off of my lawn!" Walt Kowalski . ISSC PAR .223

November 23, 2013, 09:48 PM	#17
Boomer58cal Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2013 Location: closer than you think Posts: 967	Ratshooter... That's a neat little gun, I hear they're pretty accurate too. It would be fun to shoot rats I think I'd still take my Savage 340 in 22 hornet for a survival gun though. I like the fact that it's reloadable. You can actually reload 6 or 700 rds per pound of powder! How's that for efficacy? My handloads make 900 lbs of energy, 2 or 3 times what a 22 magnum makes and a thousand rounds weighs what 5 pounds. The one big advantage 22 Magnum has over the Hornet is ammo availability. You can't find it anywhere. Although most of the rimfire cartridges have been pretty tough to keep in stock this year. In a SHTF I'm a big fan or rimfire cartridges as a secondary weapon system, but I don't think they should be your primary weapons. I'd like to have something with a little more wallop for when things get up close and personal or for when you really need to reach out and touch someone. For that I prefer something like .223/7.62x39 or even a pistol caliber carbine. Boomer Last edited by Boomer58cal; November 23, 2013 at 09:59 PM.

November 24, 2013, 12:57 PM	#22
osirus82 Senior Member Join Date: June 22, 2013 Posts: 102	curious how many people a have chosen their go to survival gun.. So the question has to be asked- how many of you folks actually have (that great survival rifle?) If i had to choose one that I do own I think i would take my Sub2K glock .40-- it accepts other glock mags - 30 rounders- it folds up-- it fits inside a camleback with plenty of room for ammo-and mags, Its like 5lbs fully loaded- and is super accurate. I did have other gun options like sig522 .22 with 25 round mags, or Fnar .308 with 5-20 round mags, or 12g semi or pump. that innogun hybrid looks great= wonder how many thousands it is. id buy one. Last edited by osirus82; November 24, 2013 at 01:07 PM.

November 24, 2013, 01:06 PM	#23
Deja vu Senior Member Join Date: March 14, 2010 Location: Border of Idaho & Montana Posts: 2,584	This is my opinion but a survival rifle will likely be used to get food in hostial territory. I think some thing quiet (suppressed) is very important. Mine is a suppressed 22lr or a suppressed 45-70 (yes I have both) I also think its good that they dont looks like (evil) black tactical riles that draw attention but look more like your grandfathers hunting rifle. The other survival gun I thing would work well is a 12ga. I doubt any other gun can put food on the table like a 12ga. __________________ Shot placement is everything! I would rather take a round of 50BMG to the foot than a 22short to the base of the skull. all 26 of my guns are 45/70 govt, 357 mag, 22 or 12 ga... I believe in keeping it simple. Wish my wife did as well...

November 24, 2013, 01:45 PM	#25
Colt46 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2002 Location: Campbell Ca Posts: 1,090	I've got ther Marlin 'Papoose' It floats(if stowed in the case), is lightweight, accurate, compact(takedown) and you can carry a lot of .22lr to go with it. It's a short range small game getter(medium game if you get close and pick your shots), and will be acceptable for defense against people as well. I wouldn't really think it was optimal in dangerous game country, but will feed you in just about any rural or backwoods environment out there.

November 23, 2013, 12:46 PM	#2
Jimmy96a1 Member Join Date: September 18, 2013 Location: Minnesota "Nice!" Posts: 43	They make .22 rifles that fold down enough to fit in a small backpack. Thats all you really need for survival if its all you got. You wont be bringing down any bears but you could kill a deer if your sneaky. Its way easyer to carry 1000 rounds of .22 than the same amount of .223 also. But for bunnys,squirrels and birds wich will be your most common delicious snacks in the wild, a .22 will do fine. Dont think a .223 would leave much meat on a squrrel lol. If your talking about surviving in hostile territory and you need somthing that can kill pretty much anything inside 200 yards thats not gonna be a complete hinderance get a .308 lol im no exper but thats my 2 cents.

November 23, 2013, 01:20 PM	#3
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	The big problem that I've noticed in discussions of this sort is that "survival" spans many different scenarios. Thus my oft-repeated comment that there's no such thing as "One size fits all." Just as one example: You crash your light plane in the middle of a mountainous, forested wilderness, and have a badly sprained ankle. The ELT works, but choppers can't land. While you wait for rescue, do you rely on a .22 for ptarmigan and hares? Or a .375 H&H against grizzlies? The various scenarios one envisions determine the choice of rifle.

November 23, 2013, 04:37 PM	#4
tobnpr Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2010 Location: Tampa Bay Posts: 4,556	I think the lightweight "scout" rifle, as defined, is about as close to the one rifle I'd have, if I could have only one rifle for "survival"...

November 23, 2013, 05:43 PM	#5
ChasingWhitetail91 Senior Member Join Date: October 10, 2012 Location: Connecticut Posts: 336	my survival "rifle" would be a shotgun. slugs for big critters, shot for small critters. not to mention rounds havent been hard to find since the great depression.

November 23, 2013, 06:22 PM	#6
Buzzcook Senior Member Join Date: November 29, 2007 Location: Everett, WA Posts: 6,126	The problem with a shotgun for lost in the wilderness scenarios is the weight of the ammo. If we're only lost for a short time or not wandering around the weight isn't a big deal. When the time is long and we have to travel that weight becomes a big deal. I'd also have to ask how you got lost in the wilderness with a shotgun and a few cases of ammo.

November 23, 2013, 06:32 PM	#7
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	Another choice is the combo shotgun-rifles. Like a 20 gauge and a small rifle caliber. Being of the break open design, they can also be taken down for easier packing.

November 23, 2013, 06:51 PM	#8
Doyle Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2007 Location: Rainbow City, Alabama Posts: 7,167	The problem with takedown rifles like the AR-7 is that they are notoriously inaccurate.

November 23, 2013, 07:36 PM	#10
Bigfatts Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2005 Location: Lutz Posts: 1,528	I always thought the Keltec folding rifles would be great in a survival role. Either the SU16 or the Sub 2000. Both are lightweight, take readily available mags and ammo. The SU16 even stores mags right in the stock. Either rifle would be ok for close range hunting or defense.

November 23, 2013, 07:39 PM	#11
semi_problomatic Senior Member Join Date: July 27, 2009 Location: Ft. Polk Posts: 883	^^^^^ hahaha, great minds think alike.... I always liked the idea of the keltec su-16 for a survival rifle. Stores 2 10 round mags (or one 20 or 30) in stock of the gun, folds in half, has a simple bolt design, handi little bipod built in... It's not perfect, or even all that great compared to many guns... But it fits most folks need and description for a survival rifle.

November 23, 2013, 07:48 PM	#12
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,976	Mine. http://ruger.com/products/1022Takedown/models.html Realistically this would work for everything but large predators and I think the realistic need for that is way over rated. If I were really concerned a suitable handgun in addition to the rifle could serve that role.

November 23, 2013, 08:20 PM	#13
ThomasT Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 2,773	I always liked this rifle for a survival type gun. The ammo isn't a lot heavier than regular 22LR and it is about 3 times as powerful. It cost more but so what. Anything except air gun ammo cost more than 22 rounds. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGeZYqMQ7gw I wish I could find a beat up version of this gun for a hundred bucks or so and I would make the mods and have one of the best truck guns around. Also this. A great article for a survival rifle. http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/survival.htm

November 23, 2013, 08:45 PM	#14
leadcounsel Junior member Join Date: September 8, 2005 Location: Tacoma, WA Posts: 2,119	If by 'survival' you mean battling nature, securing some food, and adequate self defense, I would agree that either a 12 gauge and an assortment of birdshot and slugs is a great weapon. Or, an AR15 folds in half by popping two pins. A couple loaded mags gives you a lot of ammo. Either of these comes in at under 10 pounds. You'd be hard pressed to come up with a realistic survival situation in the US that requires more than one of these with a few pounds of ammo.

November 23, 2013, 08:57 PM	#15
pathdoc Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2013 Posts: 669	If what you want is something to get you basic meat to eat, a .22LR/.410 combo has to be given consideration. In which case, my vote is for the current Savage Model 42 - small, light, handy - and at close range, the .410 with a solid slug might even get you a small deer. Yes, I know it's far from ideal, but desperate times require desperate measures.

November 23, 2013, 09:47 PM	#16
olddav Senior Member Join Date: December 21, 2008 Location: Lower Alabama Posts: 727	H&R Survival rifle comes in .223 and .308.

November 23, 2013, 10:16 PM	#18
PetahW Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2008 Posts: 4,678	. Regardless of whatever firearm's available/used, the ultimate survival tool is between your ears.......... A person can have the best of anything, but won't survive very long if their head's not on straight. .

November 23, 2013, 10:26 PM	#19
hbhobby Senior Member Join Date: January 14, 2013 Location: Payson Az Posts: 169	I got a savage 24 in .30-30 / 20 ga specifically for this purpose. It breaks down fairly easillto fit in a pack. Will kill just about anything i am going to encounter and isnt too terribly heavy.

November 23, 2013, 10:28 PM	#20
Waspinator Senior Member Join Date: February 10, 2013 Location: Connecticut Posts: 517	This one is cool as all get out... http://www.innogun.de/en/rifles/hybrid.html lot of caliber choices. The upper could be a 12 gauge and the lower a reapeating/magazine fed high caliber rifle. Or, you can chose 22lr/ .308 .. or what ever... thats cool!