Did It, It worked, But a Question

Geek's 65 · December 7, 2013, 05:08 PM

I had my seating die set way too far down and was causing my brass to ripple on the neck. Put a picture of it here on the forum and got many good answers telling me what was wrong and how to fix it. Basically back the bullet seating shaft way out, raise the ram all the way up with a casing in it, turn the die down until it contacted the case and then back it off one full turn. Once I did that, set the seating for what I wanted and should be good to go. I did that and it worked perfectly. Now the question.

Over 90% of my reloading experience is with 45ACP and 9mm so we have a taper crimp die that we run through. My Redding .308 die set also came with a taper crimp. So my question is once I have seated the bullet with the seating die backed out one full turn, do I need to turn it back down, back the seating shaft way out and run the shells though the die one more time to taper crimp them?

I know. Another newbie with dumb questions but I sure appreciate the good answers.

Thanks

G

243winxb · December 7, 2013, 05:20 PM

No crimp needed for a 308 or 270 bolt action. Maybe, if an auto loader & you have bullet movement from chambering the rounds. Bottle neck type rifle cartridges with the correct neck tension will not need a crimp.

Geek's 65 · December 7, 2013, 05:38 PM

My bad. This is a .270 being run through a Browning automatic. Sorry for the omission.

G

tangolima · December 7, 2013, 06:38 PM

You are supposed to be able to do both operations, seating and crimping, in one stroke. Some people choose to finish them in 2 steps. I belong to the first group.

Here are the procedures.

1. Seat the bullet to correct depth without crimp (you just did that).

2. Back the seater stem out several turns. Lower the die till it make contact with the seated round (about 1 turn). Progressively lower the die further (1/8 or 1/4 of a turn at a time) till desired crimp is reached. Lock down the die.

3. With the press handle down (ram all the way up), lower the seater stem till it makes contact with the bullet.

4. Seat and crimp another round (in one stroke). Re-measure COL and adjust seater stem if needed. If everything is fine, lock down the seater stem, and start cranking.

I crimp my handloads if situation warrants, pistol or rifle.

-TL

lah2420 · December 7, 2013, 06:39 PM

I know it doesn't have the ramming power of the .270, but I don't crimp on my .223 I use in my Mini 14. I have cycled rounds through it and measured lengths. No change. I have also seated several bullets in blank cases and tried to push the bullet in. I really had to put my 200+ pounds behind them to get the bullets to move. In all cases I severely deformed the bullet doing so.

mehavey · December 7, 2013, 06:57 PM

If you use a (30 cal/jacketed) bullet without a built-in crimping groove, don't crimp.
(1) You don't have to with normal neck tension when seated normally at least 2/3rd's(+) of a caliber deep; and
(2) Crimping would only bite into the smooth side of the (ungrooved) jacket and deform it.

243winxb · December 7, 2013, 09:32 PM

http://www.exteriorballistics.com/re...sgunreload.cfm Good information about "Neck Tension"

603Country · December 8, 2013, 12:14 AM

I shot a BAR in 270 for years. I never crimped a reload. I did use small base dies.

wncchester · December 8, 2013, 09:31 AM

"...do I need to turn it back down, back the seating shaft way out and run the shells though the die one more time to taper crimp them? "

Yes. BUT you really won't need much of a crimp; what you really need to do is remove the mouth flair enough to allow your cartridges to chamber easily.

And you don't need to back the seater/crimper out a full turn. a half turn is plenty, and you only need back the seater stem out enough so it won't change your OAL while crimping.

F. Guffey · December 8, 2013, 09:39 AM

If you do not want to go back to sorting cases with wrinkled necks and crushed shoulders I suggest you start out with trimming, to crimp the cases must be trimmed to the same length. Crimping requires nothing more than a hit of effort while raising the ram.

In the old days Lyman suggested reloaders avoid crimping bottle neck cases for the simple reason they were reducing bullet hold when they belled the neck when crimping. If the cases are not trimmed to the same length the crimp can not be the same for all cases.

I am not the fan of crimping bottle neck cases, I want all the bullet hold I can get.

F. Guffey

F. Guffey · December 8, 2013, 09:47 AM

To wncchester response, no, you go back to the instructions, I am the only reloader that uses transfers, I transfer the dimensions of the chamber to the seating die.

I start by backing the seating stem out of the way, then I lower the seating die to the case mount with a hint of contact 'THEN! I lower the seating stem down to the bullet until it contacts 'the bullet'. I then secure the die and the seating stem, 'THEN' make a trial run.

All of my seating dies are micro adjust, instead of using the expensive add on to the seating die I use a dial caliper to measure the seating stem protrusion from the die. If I take notes I can increase the seating depth to change maximum over all length in increments of .001"

F. Guffey

Geek's 65 · December 8, 2013, 11:18 AM

All,

Appreciate the great responses, links to articles, and inputs. I did re-trim all the cases down to the minimum case length and they all went together perfectly. Now the test will be making them go bang correctly in the BAR. I did make a couple more dummies (no powder or primer), loaded them in the gun and ran them through from the magazine. They seemed to load and eject OK and after I did that I rechecked the OAL and it hadn't moved so I will give these a go.

Again thanks for the help.

G

Scimmia · December 8, 2013, 02:12 PM

You generally don't need a crimp, but in some cases, it is needed. High recoil rifles or tube mags are the most common reasons. In those cases, use a bullet with a cannelure and get a Lee FCD. It's the only way to crimp for rifle cases IMO; no worrying about exact length, no belling, and there are numerous claims of actually increasing accuracy.

Note that this is completely different than the FCD for straight wall pistol cases. The two dies have nothing in common.

Rifletom · December 8, 2013, 03:07 PM

^^^This right here!^^^ Says it all.

CherokeeT · December 9, 2013, 05:15 PM

I load 5.56 and 7.62 for semi-autos, no crimp needed in 40+years of shooting.

noylj · December 10, 2013, 06:55 PM

I firmly believe in separating the two steps--the bullet has to be moving a little while the case is being crimped (nit pick: it is a case, not a casing).
However, I have NEVER needed to crimp in any rifle (bottleneck cartridge) in over 35 years--for bolt action, lever action, and semi-auto (never wanted a pump). If I did need to crimp, I would use a bullet with a cannelure and crimp in the cannelure ONLY.
If I HAD to crimp and HAD to use a bullet without a cannelure, I would use the Lee collet FCD.

December 7, 2013, 05:08 PM	#1
Geek's 65 Member Join Date: September 16, 2013 Posts: 17	Did It, It worked, But a Question I had my seating die set way too far down and was causing my brass to ripple on the neck. Put a picture of it here on the forum and got many good answers telling me what was wrong and how to fix it. Basically back the bullet seating shaft way out, raise the ram all the way up with a casing in it, turn the die down until it contacted the case and then back it off one full turn. Once I did that, set the seating for what I wanted and should be good to go. I did that and it worked perfectly. Now the question. Over 90% of my reloading experience is with 45ACP and 9mm so we have a taper crimp die that we run through. My Redding .308 die set also came with a taper crimp. So my question is once I have seated the bullet with the seating die backed out one full turn, do I need to turn it back down, back the seating shaft way out and run the shells though the die one more time to taper crimp them? I know. Another newbie with dumb questions but I sure appreciate the good answers. Thanks G

December 7, 2013, 05:20 PM	#2
243winxb Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2011 Location: USA Posts: 1,758	270 Winchester No crimp needed for a 308 or 270 bolt action. Maybe, if an auto loader & you have bullet movement from chambering the rounds. Bottle neck type rifle cartridges with the correct neck tension will not need a crimp. Last edited by 243winxb; December 7, 2013 at 09:29 PM. Reason: or 270 Question is about a 270 win.

December 7, 2013, 06:57 PM	#6
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 7,211	If you use a (30 cal/jacketed) bullet without a built-in crimping groove, don't crimp. (1) You don't have to with normal neck tension when seated normally at least 2/3rd's(+) of a caliber deep; and (2) Crimping would only bite into the smooth side of the (ungrooved) jacket and deform it. Last edited by mehavey; December 7, 2013 at 10:50 PM.

December 7, 2013, 09:32 PM	#7
243winxb Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2011 Location: USA Posts: 1,758	Reloading for Semi-Autos http://www.exteriorballistics.com/re...sgunreload.cfm Good information about "Neck Tension"

December 8, 2013, 09:39 AM	#10
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	If you do not want to go back to sorting cases with wrinkled necks and crushed shoulders I suggest you start out with trimming, to crimp the cases must be trimmed to the same length. Crimping requires nothing more than a hit of effort while raising the ram. In the old days Lyman suggested reloaders avoid crimping bottle neck cases for the simple reason they were reducing bullet hold when they belled the neck when crimping. If the cases are not trimmed to the same length the crimp can not be the same for all cases. I am not the fan of crimping bottle neck cases, I want all the bullet hold I can get. F. Guffey Last edited by F. Guffey; December 8, 2013 at 10:29 AM. Reason: change to can not

December 7, 2013, 05:38 PM	#3
Geek's 65 Member Join Date: September 16, 2013 Posts: 17	My bad. This is a .270 being run through a Browning automatic. Sorry for the omission. G

December 7, 2013, 06:38 PM	#4
tangolima Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2013 Posts: 5,183	You are supposed to be able to do both operations, seating and crimping, in one stroke. Some people choose to finish them in 2 steps. I belong to the first group. Here are the procedures. 1. Seat the bullet to correct depth without crimp (you just did that). 2. Back the seater stem out several turns. Lower the die till it make contact with the seated round (about 1 turn). Progressively lower the die further (1/8 or 1/4 of a turn at a time) till desired crimp is reached. Lock down the die. 3. With the press handle down (ram all the way up), lower the seater stem till it makes contact with the bullet. 4. Seat and crimp another round (in one stroke). Re-measure COL and adjust seater stem if needed. If everything is fine, lock down the seater stem, and start cranking. I crimp my handloads if situation warrants, pistol or rifle. -TL

December 7, 2013, 06:39 PM	#5
lah2420 Member Join Date: August 2, 2009 Location: Arkansas Posts: 54	I know it doesn't have the ramming power of the .270, but I don't crimp on my .223 I use in my Mini 14. I have cycled rounds through it and measured lengths. No change. I have also seated several bullets in blank cases and tried to push the bullet in. I really had to put my 200+ pounds behind them to get the bullets to move. In all cases I severely deformed the bullet doing so.

December 8, 2013, 12:14 AM	#8
603Country Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2011 Location: Thornton, Texas Posts: 4,039	I shot a BAR in 270 for years. I never crimped a reload. I did use small base dies.

December 8, 2013, 09:31 AM	#9
wncchester Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2002 Posts: 2,832	"...do I need to turn it back down, back the seating shaft way out and run the shells though the die one more time to taper crimp them? " Yes. BUT you really won't need much of a crimp; what you really need to do is remove the mouth flair enough to allow your cartridges to chamber easily. And you don't need to back the seater/crimper out a full turn. a half turn is plenty, and you only need back the seater stem out enough so it won't change your OAL while crimping.

December 8, 2013, 09:47 AM	#11
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	To wncchester response, no, you go back to the instructions, I am the only reloader that uses transfers, I transfer the dimensions of the chamber to the seating die. I start by backing the seating stem out of the way, then I lower the seating die to the case mount with a hint of contact 'THEN! I lower the seating stem down to the bullet until it contacts 'the bullet'. I then secure the die and the seating stem, 'THEN' make a trial run. All of my seating dies are micro adjust, instead of using the expensive add on to the seating die I use a dial caliper to measure the seating stem protrusion from the die. If I take notes I can increase the seating depth to change maximum over all length in increments of .001" F. Guffey

December 8, 2013, 11:18 AM	#12
Geek's 65 Member Join Date: September 16, 2013 Posts: 17	Thank You All, Appreciate the great responses, links to articles, and inputs. I did re-trim all the cases down to the minimum case length and they all went together perfectly. Now the test will be making them go bang correctly in the BAR. I did make a couple more dummies (no powder or primer), loaded them in the gun and ran them through from the magazine. They seemed to load and eject OK and after I did that I rechecked the OAL and it hadn't moved so I will give these a go. Again thanks for the help. G

December 8, 2013, 02:12 PM	#13
Scimmia Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2011 Location: Eastern IA Posts: 428	You generally don't need a crimp, but in some cases, it is needed. High recoil rifles or tube mags are the most common reasons. In those cases, use a bullet with a cannelure and get a Lee FCD. It's the only way to crimp for rifle cases IMO; no worrying about exact length, no belling, and there are numerous claims of actually increasing accuracy. Note that this is completely different than the FCD for straight wall pistol cases. The two dies have nothing in common.

December 8, 2013, 03:07 PM	#14
Rifletom Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2011 Location: So-Cal Posts: 805	^^^This right here!^^^ Says it all.

December 9, 2013, 05:15 PM	#15
CherokeeT Senior Member Join Date: April 23, 2008 Location: Medina, Ohio Posts: 273	I load 5.56 and 7.62 for semi-autos, no crimp needed in 40+years of shooting.

December 10, 2013, 06:55 PM	#16
noylj Senior Member Join Date: October 22, 2007 Location: Between CA and NM Posts: 860	I firmly believe in separating the two steps--the bullet has to be moving a little while the case is being crimped (nit pick: it is a case, not a casing). However, I have NEVER needed to crimp in any rifle (bottleneck cartridge) in over 35 years--for bolt action, lever action, and semi-auto (never wanted a pump). If I did need to crimp, I would use a bullet with a cannelure and crimp in the cannelure ONLY. If I HAD to crimp and HAD to use a bullet without a cannelure, I would use the Lee collet FCD.