Legal/Moral obligations for loaning a firearm

Tickling · July 13, 2012, 05:07 PM

Title says it all. A classmate of mine apparently has a stalker. She's gone through the usual, restraining order, calls to the police, etc. Apparently the "stalker" has already spent some time in jail over the matter and has a history.

Here's the twist. She's as anti-gun as they come. In fact we led opposing debate teams on the subject of "gun-rights" in a philosophy class recently. She's very firm about her beliefs, but just because we disagree on a few issues doesnt mean we can't be friends. So I was shocked when she made the request yesterday to borrow a firearm from me.

Obviously she has literally no firearms knowledge or experience. She's as scared of gun ranges as the devil is of holy-water. Added to that, I only own a Glock 19 and a Remington 870 12g with a super long barrel.

She's tiny, so the 12g is out, and the Glock seems less than safe without at least a little bit of instruction, preferably some shooting time.

On hand I don't feel comfortable lending out a firearm to someone who doesn't know how to use it. On the other hand I'd feel horrible if something happened..

It seems like I'm "darned if I do, darned if I don't." Any advice is appreciated.

If this is in the wrong section please move it. Thank you.

aarondhgraham · July 13, 2012, 05:18 PM

If she has to use the gun,,,
You'll more than likely never get it back.

So take her shopping,,,
Help her pick out a suitable gun of her own.

Honestly my friend,,,
You are under no obligation to arm her.

As a friend you can choose to help her arm herself,,,
You can also assist her in learning to shoot,,,
Heck, loan her the money if necessary.

You said she is terrified of gun ranges,,,
She needs to get over this before she has a gun in hand.

Perhaps pepper spray or a taser,,,
That would be more appropriate for her skill level

Has anyone ever been named in a civil suit for arming someone?

I don't know if that has ever happened,,,
But if I was ever shot with a borrowed weapon,,,
I would probably go after the lender as well as the shooter.

Just a thought.

Aarond

P.S. She sounds just like my ex wife who was adamantly against guns in general,,,
Until someone tried to break into our apartment when I wasn't there,,,
All of a sudden she was a 2nd Amendment advocate,,,
And a proud owner of a Ruger SP-101.

.

Salmoneye · July 13, 2012, 05:19 PM

That indeed is one sticky wicket...

No family she can turn to for instruction and a loan?

Are there other considerations such as 'dorm life' (you said classmate), or roommates that might inadvertently gain access?

I don't envy you, but without knowing more I'd say tell her to take a class and buy her own...

BarryLee · July 13, 2012, 05:21 PM

Always amazes me how people oppose guns until they feel “they” need one.

Anyway, sorry for venting, and back to your question. I would be very hesitant to loan a gun to someone in this situation. However, I am not sure you would face any legal liability, but obviously you would be open to litigation if she somehow misused or even properly used the weapon.

If you do decide to provide her a gun two, things to consider.

First, offer to assist her in purchasing a nice used revolver.

Secondly, if you do loan her a gun do it only if she agrees to attend a formal training program. At least this might offer you some protection in case of a law suit down the road.

Tickling · July 13, 2012, 05:32 PM

There's no way she'll buy herself a gun.

As far as family goes.. Her father is a lawyer who does volunteer work for the Brady Campaign.

That they would be horrified at her request is obvious. In fact, her family's advice was to get guys to sleep over

She's scared, but she wants her life back. She lives by herself, and her apartment is as secure as I could help her make it. Radio Shack has nifty stuff

Tickling · July 13, 2012, 05:37 PM

I've been looking to buy a revolver, perhaps now is the time.. Wouldn't the double action pull on one of those be hard for a petite girl though?

aarondhgraham · July 13, 2012, 05:49 PM

Quote:

In fact, her family's advice was to get guys to sleep over

Pack an overnight bag and your Glock.

Problem solved.

But seriously, good friend or not,,,
I still think loaning her a gun is a very bad idea.

It would be like loaning a non-driver a car so they could flee a situation.

Aarond.

P.S. I can't even comment on her Father's mentality,,,
Would he rather see her beaten or even worse?

.

Salmoneye · July 13, 2012, 05:53 PM

Sorry Tickling...

I assumed you would be dealing with rational family members...

rickyrick · July 13, 2012, 06:07 PM

As the saying goes; if it don't feel right then it probably isn't. You may wanna help guide her through the steps needed or even help look out for her. She needs a dog... If she can't have a dog, she might need to move.

jason_iowa · July 13, 2012, 06:11 PM

There is no such thing as a truly rational human. We are emotional beings. Glocks are as safe as anything else. If you don't pull the trigger they won't fire. Manual safeties don't make guns safe. They add the illusion of safety.

I would agree that staying at her place would be the best idea. It would add a witness in addition to the deterrent and defense.

Giving her a gun that when push comes to shove she may not be willing to use would just be giving her attacker a gun.

Hansam · July 13, 2012, 06:15 PM

Don't loan her a gun.

Unless you're romantically interested in her (and even then its a bad idea) loaning her a gun is only a way to make things bad for you.

Friend or not you're under no obligation to loan her a gun. Offer to take her out to purchase her own gun and give her tips on how to make her home and life safer. If she takes you up on the offer then good. If not then well she's made her own bed and she'll have to sleep in it.

You have no legal obligations whatsoever remember that. Morally you also have no obligations. As a friend you would want to help her but that's not an obligation just a desire to help. Help her by helping her choose and purchase a firearm that is best suited for her and then get her the training and practice she needs to be able to use it for self defense. Point her in the right directions and you can even help her go about getting proper training and her CCW/CHL. Aside from that there is nothing else you should do for her unless you intend to be sleeping at her place or vice versa for a while to come.

I'm a firm believer in the policy of helping people by giving them the directions and tools to help themselves and if they choose not to then they've made their decisions and they're going to have to live with the consequences of their decisions. I keep my nose out of trouble this way and I believe it also builds character in people I choose to help.

gaseousclay · July 13, 2012, 06:22 PM

would you be able to give her basic firearms training yourself? the only problem I see with you loaning her a firearm is IF she were forced to use it and wound up killing someone you could potentially be held liable for lending her the gun. maybe you could contact your local law enforcement official and ask them? I think you should offer to teach her firearm safety basics and to go out with her so she can buy her own gun.

Merad · July 13, 2012, 06:41 PM

I would avoid the loan at all costs. Even ignoring any possible legal/liability aspects she will not be able to handle the gun safely without a good bit of practice. I recently took a friend shooting for the first time... very similar, small woman. She had a good bit of difficulty racking the slide and etc on both my G19 and P226.

I would try to help her with purchasing something to use for home defense... a shotgun, probably... or pursue a CHL. If for some reason that's not possible and she was a very close friend I might offer to stay with her for a while or let her stay with me.

BitterTait · July 13, 2012, 07:19 PM

Anyone who says you don't have a moral obligation to protect your friends has a different set of morals than I do. That said, you have a moral obligation to make sure that your gun doesn't fall into the wrong hands. So I'd loan her the gun, but only immediately after she took a firearms class. Find a range that offers shooting classes (preferrably women-only), to make sure that not only does she know how to safely operate the gun and the pertinant laws in her area, but also to give her an introduction to other people who are just getting into guns and let her know that she's not alone.

I personally would pick up a used 18-20 inch barrel for the shotgun and find some reduced-recoil loads and give her the shotgun, or better yet, once she takes the class let her shoot both and choose which one she needs. Let her know it's a temporarly loan, have her buy her own gun. If she's against owning a gun you can promise to buy it off of her once the threat is over and you have the funds available, odds are she'll keep it anyways once she realizes that owning a gun doesn't automatically make her the next Whitman or Cho.

Edit: also-check your local laws. in MI loaning a pistol would be illegal, but in most other states it's not.

BillM · July 13, 2012, 07:25 PM

Kimber pepper spray gun, can of bear spray, can of wasp spray, oven
cleaner. Heck---can of starting fluid and a bic lighter---that will make
almost anything re-think it's actions.

That said, hard to beat a firearm as the ultimate in feminine protection.

Explain to her that loaning her a gun with no hands on instruction is like
giving matches to a 2 year old. Almost never a good outcome. Beg or
borrow a 22, get her to the range, and introduce her to shooting. After
she has the basics down, go to a range with rentals and have her try a few.

Explain to her that it's like trying out new cuisine. You may THINK you
won't like it---but you really don't know until you have tried it a few times.

gaseousclay · July 13, 2012, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Explain to her that loaning her a gun with no hands on instruction is like
giving matches to a 2 year old.

the other thing to consider is that if she has no firearms training whatsoever what's to prevent her stalker from using the gun on her? that would be unfortunate

youngunz4life · July 13, 2012, 07:38 PM

do not loan her the gun. if anything write up a bill of sale for a small amount of money and both sign it(save original copy). in my state you can sell the gun but it does depend on your state of residence.

again, I do not think you should loan her the gun and it could be a mistake. it also could 'put you in something' or tie you to something. you shouldn't let that happen even if the percentage is minute that it will happen.

Technosavant · July 13, 2012, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Kimber pepper spray gun

I agree with this one. It's a great little tool for self defense, as is a Taser C2. They aren't real firearms, but being less than lethal they may be better for the young lady in question.

Personally, while I might well loan a gun to a good friend, I would only do so if they would take good instruction and if they've shown that they might well use it to defend their life. This young lady has been anti-gun, her family is anti-gun, and (keep in mind I do not know her) I would wonder if she REALLY has the mental willingness to take a life to save her own. Some people will freeze up, they just aren't prepared for that "pull the trigger" moment.

If you loan her a gun and the stalker comes after her, then if she freezes up she has a violent attacker who has just been given YOUR gun. I wouldn't worry so much about her shooting the attacker and the liability involved as I would this particular set of circumstances... if she was harmed with your gun I would expect some kind of lawsuit from that family.

If she is really having a change of heart, then try to get her to take some instruction. Failing that, a less than lethal option would be the only one I would personally recommend- a Kimber pepper blaster is less than $50 and she would be able to keep it on her person all of the time in most states; not just at her home/apartment.

leadchucker · July 13, 2012, 08:18 PM

She's "anti gun," she's scared of guns, she's likely never touched a gun... and now she wants a gun?

She's also foolish. And you are too, if you help her get a gun, incompetent with firearms as she is.

buck460XVR · July 13, 2012, 08:24 PM

Quote:

I would agree that staying at her place would be the best idea. It would add a witness in addition to the deterrent and defense.

Actually, having her stay @ your place would be the best idea. It would be unknown to her stalker and more familiar surroundings for you. Either way, once the stalker realizes you are involved, you too will become a target. Giving her a gun without training would be a big mistake. Find a place where she can receive some professional training and assist her in buying a gun of her own.

oneounceload · July 13, 2012, 08:29 PM

No to the gun
YES to the bear spray
Yes to an aluminum baseball bat --take her to some batting cages
Yes to getting her martial arts women's defense classes
Yes to extra locks preparations etc.....

riggins_83 · July 13, 2012, 09:06 PM

Loaning a firearm to someone who's (a) scared of firearms and (b) has never used one most likely for the purpose of self defense is the equivalent of throwing someone who's never driven into a car at high speed and saying "Oh by the way you'll have to avoid a crash."

If she uses the gun for self defense it will be seized during the investigation and you may never get it back. If she attempts to use it she may miss entirely, hesitate or have it taken away from her. Plenty of self defense shootings result in nobody being hit.

There are plenty of inexpensive relatively short and light shotguns available at low cost (Mossberg 500, Remington 870, etc).

I've had students who've told me they feel they'd hesitate or believe they cannot miss they can miss and hesitation may mean the firearm is turned against them. Don't risk either for her.

spanishjames · July 13, 2012, 09:14 PM

Quote:

She's "anti gun," she's scared of guns, she's likely never touched a gun... and now she wants a gun? She's also foolish. And you are too, if you help her get a gun, incompetent with firearms as she is.

I agree.

If she's anti gun, then she may believe the police should take care of her. Have the police been notified?

gaseousclay · July 13, 2012, 09:14 PM

Quote:

She's "anti gun," she's scared of guns, she's likely never touched a gun... and now she wants a gun? She's also foolish. And you are too, if you help her get a gun, incompetent with firearms as she is.

you can't fault the woman for wanting a gun. it usually takes something as serious as a stalker to open someone's eyes to the benefits of gun ownership. instead of chastising this woman because of her anti-gun views you should be applauding her for being willing to handle a firearm.

I think it would be foolish NOT do something. If you were in a position to help someone defend themselves, wouldn't you? Or, would you wait til you saw that person was a casualty on the local news? i'd feel pretty crappy if someone asked for my help and I willfully turned them away only to find out something bad happened to that person. so long as you help this woman in a way that doesn't turn around and bite you in the keister then you should be ok

Sport45 · July 13, 2012, 09:31 PM

Stay out of it.

This sounds more like an acquaintance than a friend. Do you know for sure she has a stalker? She may just be using you (and others for all we know) to show 'how easy it is' to get a gun as part of an anti-gun agenda. I mean really, her family is encouraging her to have guys sleep over? That doesn't sound like anyone I know with daughters.

July 13, 2012, 05:07 PM	#1
Tickling Senior Member Join Date: August 17, 2011 Posts: 181	Legal/Moral obligations for loaning a firearm Title says it all. A classmate of mine apparently has a stalker. She's gone through the usual, restraining order, calls to the police, etc. Apparently the "stalker" has already spent some time in jail over the matter and has a history. Here's the twist. She's as anti-gun as they come. In fact we led opposing debate teams on the subject of "gun-rights" in a philosophy class recently. She's very firm about her beliefs, but just because we disagree on a few issues doesnt mean we can't be friends. So I was shocked when she made the request yesterday to borrow a firearm from me. Obviously she has literally no firearms knowledge or experience. She's as scared of gun ranges as the devil is of holy-water. Added to that, I only own a Glock 19 and a Remington 870 12g with a super long barrel. She's tiny, so the 12g is out, and the Glock seems less than safe without at least a little bit of instruction, preferably some shooting time. On hand I don't feel comfortable lending out a firearm to someone who doesn't know how to use it. On the other hand I'd feel horrible if something happened.. It seems like I'm "darned if I do, darned if I don't." Any advice is appreciated. If this is in the wrong section please move it. Thank you.

July 13, 2012, 05:18 PM	#2
aarondhgraham Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2009 Location: Stillwater, OKlahoma Posts: 8,638	Take her shopping,,, If she has to use the gun,,, You'll more than likely never get it back. So take her shopping,,, Help her pick out a suitable gun of her own. Honestly my friend,,, You are under no obligation to arm her. As a friend you can choose to help her arm herself,,, You can also assist her in learning to shoot,,, Heck, loan her the money if necessary. You said she is terrified of gun ranges,,, She needs to get over this before she has a gun in hand. Perhaps pepper spray or a taser,,, That would be more appropriate for her skill level Has anyone ever been named in a civil suit for arming someone? I don't know if that has ever happened,,, But if I was ever shot with a borrowed weapon,,, I would probably go after the lender as well as the shooter. Just a thought. Aarond P.S. She sounds just like my ex wife who was adamantly against guns in general,,, Until someone tried to break into our apartment when I wasn't there,,, All of a sudden she was a 2nd Amendment advocate,,, And a proud owner of a Ruger SP-101. . __________________ Never ever give an enemy the advantage of a verbal threat. Caje: The coward dies a thousand times, the brave only once. Kirby: That's about all it takes, ain't it? Aarond is good,,, Aarond is wise,,, Always trust Aarond! (most of the time)

July 13, 2012, 05:21 PM	#4
BarryLee Senior Member Join Date: July 29, 2010 Location: The ATL (OTP) Posts: 3,965	Always amazes me how people oppose guns until they feel “they” need one. Anyway, sorry for venting, and back to your question. I would be very hesitant to loan a gun to someone in this situation. However, I am not sure you would face any legal liability, but obviously you would be open to litigation if she somehow misused or even properly used the weapon. If you do decide to provide her a gun two, things to consider. First, offer to assist her in purchasing a nice used revolver. Secondly, if you do loan her a gun do it only if she agrees to attend a formal training program. At least this might offer you some protection in case of a law suit down the road. __________________ A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it ... gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman

July 13, 2012, 06:07 PM	#9
rickyrick Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2010 Posts: 8,388	As the saying goes; if it don't feel right then it probably isn't. You may wanna help guide her through the steps needed or even help look out for her. She needs a dog... If she can't have a dog, she might need to move. __________________ Woohoo, I’m back In Texas!!!

July 13, 2012, 09:06 PM	#22
riggins_83 Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2009 Location: Wherever I may roam Posts: 1,515	Loaning a firearm to someone who's (a) scared of firearms and (b) has never used one most likely for the purpose of self defense is the equivalent of throwing someone who's never driven into a car at high speed and saying "Oh by the way you'll have to avoid a crash." If she uses the gun for self defense it will be seized during the investigation and you may never get it back. If she attempts to use it she may miss entirely, hesitate or have it taken away from her. Plenty of self defense shootings result in nobody being hit. There are plenty of inexpensive relatively short and light shotguns available at low cost (Mossberg 500, Remington 870, etc). I've had students who've told me they feel they'd hesitate or believe they cannot miss they can miss and hesitation may mean the firearm is turned against them. Don't risk either for her. __________________ l've heard police work is dangerous. Yes, that's why l carry a big gun. Couldn't it go off accidentally? l used to have that problem. What did you do about it? l just think about baseball. -Leslie Nielsen

July 13, 2012, 05:19 PM	#3
Salmoneye Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 2011 Location: Vermont Posts: 2,076	That indeed is one sticky wicket... No family she can turn to for instruction and a loan? Are there other considerations such as 'dorm life' (you said classmate), or roommates that might inadvertently gain access? I don't envy you, but without knowing more I'd say tell her to take a class and buy her own...

July 13, 2012, 05:32 PM	#5
Tickling Senior Member Join Date: August 17, 2011 Posts: 181	There's no way she'll buy herself a gun. As far as family goes.. Her father is a lawyer who does volunteer work for the Brady Campaign. That they would be horrified at her request is obvious. In fact, her family's advice was to get guys to sleep over She's scared, but she wants her life back. She lives by herself, and her apartment is as secure as I could help her make it. Radio Shack has nifty stuff

July 13, 2012, 05:37 PM	#6
Tickling Senior Member Join Date: August 17, 2011 Posts: 181	I've been looking to buy a revolver, perhaps now is the time.. Wouldn't the double action pull on one of those be hard for a petite girl though?

July 13, 2012, 05:53 PM	#8
Salmoneye Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 2011 Location: Vermont Posts: 2,076	Sorry Tickling... I assumed you would be dealing with rational family members...

July 13, 2012, 06:11 PM	#10
jason_iowa Senior Member Join Date: July 30, 2011 Posts: 686	There is no such thing as a truly rational human. We are emotional beings. Glocks are as safe as anything else. If you don't pull the trigger they won't fire. Manual safeties don't make guns safe. They add the illusion of safety. I would agree that staying at her place would be the best idea. It would add a witness in addition to the deterrent and defense. Giving her a gun that when push comes to shove she may not be willing to use would just be giving her attacker a gun.

July 13, 2012, 06:15 PM	#11
Hansam Senior Member Join Date: February 21, 2012 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 763	Don't loan her a gun. Unless you're romantically interested in her (and even then its a bad idea) loaning her a gun is only a way to make things bad for you. Friend or not you're under no obligation to loan her a gun. Offer to take her out to purchase her own gun and give her tips on how to make her home and life safer. If she takes you up on the offer then good. If not then well she's made her own bed and she'll have to sleep in it. You have no legal obligations whatsoever remember that. Morally you also have no obligations. As a friend you would want to help her but that's not an obligation just a desire to help. Help her by helping her choose and purchase a firearm that is best suited for her and then get her the training and practice she needs to be able to use it for self defense. Point her in the right directions and you can even help her go about getting proper training and her CCW/CHL. Aside from that there is nothing else you should do for her unless you intend to be sleeping at her place or vice versa for a while to come. I'm a firm believer in the policy of helping people by giving them the directions and tools to help themselves and if they choose not to then they've made their decisions and they're going to have to live with the consequences of their decisions. I keep my nose out of trouble this way and I believe it also builds character in people I choose to help.

July 13, 2012, 06:22 PM	#12
gaseousclay Senior Member Join Date: August 4, 2010 Posts: 1,210	would you be able to give her basic firearms training yourself? the only problem I see with you loaning her a firearm is IF she were forced to use it and wound up killing someone you could potentially be held liable for lending her the gun. maybe you could contact your local law enforcement official and ask them? I think you should offer to teach her firearm safety basics and to go out with her so she can buy her own gun.

July 13, 2012, 06:41 PM	#13
Merad Senior Member Join Date: October 5, 2011 Posts: 350	I would avoid the loan at all costs. Even ignoring any possible legal/liability aspects she will not be able to handle the gun safely without a good bit of practice. I recently took a friend shooting for the first time... very similar, small woman. She had a good bit of difficulty racking the slide and etc on both my G19 and P226. I would try to help her with purchasing something to use for home defense... a shotgun, probably... or pursue a CHL. If for some reason that's not possible and she was a very close friend I might offer to stay with her for a while or let her stay with me.

July 13, 2012, 07:19 PM	#14
BitterTait Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 2009 Location: Michigan Posts: 144	Anyone who says you don't have a moral obligation to protect your friends has a different set of morals than I do. That said, you have a moral obligation to make sure that your gun doesn't fall into the wrong hands. So I'd loan her the gun, but only immediately after she took a firearms class. Find a range that offers shooting classes (preferrably women-only), to make sure that not only does she know how to safely operate the gun and the pertinant laws in her area, but also to give her an introduction to other people who are just getting into guns and let her know that she's not alone. I personally would pick up a used 18-20 inch barrel for the shotgun and find some reduced-recoil loads and give her the shotgun, or better yet, once she takes the class let her shoot both and choose which one she needs. Let her know it's a temporarly loan, have her buy her own gun. If she's against owning a gun you can promise to buy it off of her once the threat is over and you have the funds available, odds are she'll keep it anyways once she realizes that owning a gun doesn't automatically make her the next Whitman or Cho. Edit: also-check your local laws. in MI loaning a pistol would be illegal, but in most other states it's not.

July 13, 2012, 07:25 PM	#15
BillM Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2009 Location: Amity Oregon Posts: 798	Kimber pepper spray gun, can of bear spray, can of wasp spray, oven cleaner. Heck---can of starting fluid and a bic lighter---that will make almost anything re-think it's actions. That said, hard to beat a firearm as the ultimate in feminine protection. Explain to her that loaning her a gun with no hands on instruction is like giving matches to a 2 year old. Almost never a good outcome. Beg or borrow a 22, get her to the range, and introduce her to shooting. After she has the basics down, go to a range with rentals and have her try a few. Explain to her that it's like trying out new cuisine. You may THINK you won't like it---but you really don't know until you have tried it a few times.

July 13, 2012, 07:38 PM	#17
youngunz4life Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2010 Location: United States of America Posts: 1,877	do not loan her the gun. if anything write up a bill of sale for a small amount of money and both sign it(save original copy). in my state you can sell the gun but it does depend on your state of residence. again, I do not think you should loan her the gun and it could be a mistake. it also could 'put you in something' or tie you to something. you shouldn't let that happen even if the percentage is minute that it will happen.

July 13, 2012, 08:18 PM	#19
leadchucker Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2011 Location: NC Posts: 252	She's "anti gun," she's scared of guns, she's likely never touched a gun... and now she wants a gun? She's also foolish. And you are too, if you help her get a gun, incompetent with firearms as she is.

July 13, 2012, 08:29 PM	#21
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	No to the gun YES to the bear spray Yes to an aluminum baseball bat --take her to some batting cages Yes to getting her martial arts women's defense classes Yes to extra locks preparations etc.....

July 13, 2012, 09:31 PM	#25
Sport45 Senior Member Join Date: May 26, 1999 Location: Too close to Houston Posts: 4,196	Stay out of it. This sounds more like an acquaintance than a friend. Do you know for sure she has a stalker? She may just be using you (and others for all we know) to show 'how easy it is' to get a gun as part of an anti-gun agenda. I mean really, her family is encouraging her to have guys sleep over? That doesn't sound like anyone I know with daughters. __________________ Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.