New 4473 and Hispanic question?

Wyoredman · July 24, 2012, 12:20 PM

I just completed one of the new 4473's at my LGS. It appears the only differance is that they added a question asking if I'm Hispanic or Non-Hispanic!

What is the thinking behind this small change on the 4473? It seems a bit strange because the very next question still asks me to indicate my race.

Anyone know what gives?

oneounceload · July 24, 2012, 12:31 PM

At one time Hispanic was not a race but an ethnicity, much like Italian, Irish or Chinese, but Hispanic was considered Caucasian - remember, Spaniards are white European

Wyoredman · July 24, 2012, 12:34 PM

I understand that, but why ask about only the hispanics? Why are we not required to indicate if we are Italian, Irish, Chinese? This has me perplexed?

KMAX · July 24, 2012, 12:52 PM

Ethnic profiling! Strike that question.

I too have wondered about those questions, but not worried a great deal about them. What languages is this form available in? Just curious.

**Tom Servo** · July 24, 2012, 01:02 PM

Quote:

I just completed one of the new 4473's at my LGS. It appears the only differance is that they added a question asking if I'm Hispanic or Non-Hispanic!

There is one other significant change, but most folks won't notice. Until recently, resident aliens had to provide 90 days' proof of residency in addition to their green card. That requirement has been removed.

The hispanic/not hispanic thing was out of left field, though.

Brian Pfleuger · July 24, 2012, 01:06 PM

What an odd thing.

I despise this whole concept of asking about "race". Where's the check box for "human"? There is only one race.

Besides which, they've got my full name, address, SSN and DOB. I suppose there's some other guy with the same name, DOB and SSN who lives in the apartment below me, but, WHOOPS! He's "Hispanic", so WHEW!, that differentiates us.

Aargh!

Live Free · July 24, 2012, 01:11 PM

This question is not new but is interesting as to why the US government wants to know about your ethnicity/race with regards to Hispanics & Non-Hispanics.

The 2010 Census
source: http://www.census.gov/schools/pdf/2010form_info.pdf

Question 8: Is Person 1 Hispanic, Latino, or Spanish origin?
Question 9: What is Person 1's race?

The 2000 Census
source: http://www.census.gov/dmd/www/pdf/d61a.pdf

Question 7: Is the Person Spanish/Hispanic/Latino?
Question 8: What is the persons race?

I found an interesting report on the result of the 2010 census discussing the issue, which states that in 1997, the OMB (Office of Management & Budget's) revised the standards of classifications.

".... 1997 Revisions to the Standards for the Classification of Federal Data on Race and Ethnicity. These federal standards mandate that race and Ethnicity (Hispanic origin) are separate and distinct concepts and that when collecting these data via self-identification, two different questions must be used."

source: http://www.census.gov/prod/cen2010/b...c2010br-04.pdf

cannonfire · July 24, 2012, 01:14 PM

Maybe I'm out in left field and probably am, but could this question have anything to do with Fast & Furious?

**Tom Servo** · July 24, 2012, 01:21 PM

I once asked and was told that the "Race" field was for statistical gathering. Beyond that, who knows?

Coach Z · July 24, 2012, 01:39 PM

I bought a few new guns recently and missed the box altogether. Just went through my normal check check yes no. I was reminded by the staff at the lgs that I missed a box and I said huh? It struck me as really strange because yes the next question is race? What the heck. Just seems like its trying to pacify a certain group and at the same time make the whole process more ambiguous.

BarryLee · July 24, 2012, 01:43 PM

Ok, forgive me, but I am a little unclear on how this actual data is used. I was under the impression that the forms were maintained by the FFL, so how does the Government get the demographic data? Is it transmitted during the NICS background check? Are the forms actual sent to the BATFE?

**Tom Servo** · July 24, 2012, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Is it transmitted during the NICS background check? Are the forms actual sent to the BATFE?

For the most part, from NICS checks. The operator now asks, "how did the person respond to question 10a? 10b?" In the past, they just asked "race."

Wyoredman · July 24, 2012, 02:26 PM

Completely irrelevent to the purchase of a firearm is the fact wether I consinder myself Hispanic or Non-Hispanic. That is why I find this question to be 100% out in left field.

Has the ATF given any info to you FFl's as to why they need this info? Very, very curious thing.

**Tom Servo** · July 24, 2012, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Has the ATF given any info to you FFl's as to why they need this info?

Nope, but if it's on the form, we have to be compliant.

And yeah, we'd have to deny the sale if someone refused to answer.

SHNOMIDO · July 24, 2012, 02:34 PM

A part of the equation some people may be missing is that it is possible to be "Black" and "Hispanic" concurrently, so certain people would mark African American and Hispanic on these types of forms.

Why this matters I still don't know...

dogtown tom · July 24, 2012, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Wyoredman I just completed one of the new 4473's at my LGS. It appears the only differance is that they added a question asking if I'm Hispanic or Non-Hispanic!

What is the thinking behind this small change on the 4473? It seems a bit strange because the very next question still asks me to indicate my race.

It is now a two part question because most Hispanic customers would only check "Hispanic" on the "Race/Ethnicity" question.........and not choose a race. As Hispanic is an ethnicity, not a race it was not a complete answer.

Quote:

oneounceload At one time Hispanic was not a race but an ethnicity,

Um.......it still is, hence Question 10a.

Quote:

Wyoredman I understand that, but why ask about only the hispanics? Why are we not required to indicate if we are Italian, Irish, Chinese? This has me perplexed?

"Ethnicity" and "Race" are used during the FBI NICS check to ensure the accuracy of the background check. Since one can be black and Hispanic or white and Hispanic it sure makes a difference would't you say?

Quote:

Tom Servo The hispanic/not hispanic thing was out of left field, though.

You've always had the option to check "Hispanic" on a 4473.........the problem was most of those checking Hispanic weren't also selecting a race. I'm surprised it took this long to clarify that question.

Quote:

cannonfire Maybe I'm out in left field and probably am, but could this question have anything to do with Fast & Furious?

Not when "Hispanic" has been a choice under "Race/Ethnicity"for decades.

Quote:

Tom Servo I once asked and was told that the "Race" field was for statistical gathering. Beyond that, who knows?

Federal law prohibits FBI NICS from keeping transaction information past the end of each NICS day........so no, it's not for statistical use.

Quote:

Coach Z Just seems like its trying to pacify a certain group and at the same time make the whole process more ambiguous.

Pacify what "group"?

Quote:

BarryLee Ok, forgive me, but I am a little unclear on how this actual data is used. I was under the impression that the forms were maintained by the FFL, so how does the Government get the demographic data? Is it transmitted during the NICS background check? Are the forms actual sent to the BATFE?

The data on a 4473 is kept on file by the dealer and may be destroyed after 20 years. If the dealer goes out of business all forms are sent to the giant ATF cave.

The information on a 4473 is used during the FBI NICS background check prior to the transfer of a firearm. The dealer reads the info to the NICS rep or submits it online....NICS then renders a Proceed, Delay or Denied response. If that transaction results in a "Proceed"...the data is purged at the end of the NICS business day. "Delayed" responses are saved until the status changes to a "Proceed" (and purged) or "Denied", in which case the information is saved.

Quote:

Wyoredman Completely irrelevent to the purchase of a firearm is the fact wether I consinder myself Hispanic or Non-Hispanic. That is why I find this question to be 100% out in left field.

It's not irrelevent. "Race/Ethnicity" are clearly used by law enforcement to aid in the identity of a subject.............and has been for decades.

Wyoredman · July 24, 2012, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originaly posted by Dogtown
"Ethnicity" and "Race" are used during the FBI NICS check to ensure the accuracy of the background check. Since one can be black and Hispanic or white and Hispanic it sure makes a difference would't you say?

Yep! You can be black and Irish also. For that matter you can be caucasian and Hispanic or hispanic and Native American, or white and African! That is my point, why single out the Hispanic blood and then ask in the very next question, race?

My theory is they (ATF) are just trying to get buyers and sellers to screw up the form so they have something to use in court if a legal gun is ever used in crime. Just my thoughts.

Aren't we all either citizens or non-citizens?

Wyoredman · July 24, 2012, 02:54 PM

Dogtown, Your explination makes sense... kind of. I cosidder being "hispanic" as having familial roots in central and south America. Kind of like being eropean, or asian, or north american, or african.

Sparks1957 · July 24, 2012, 03:02 PM

I noticed this question when I picked up my P-11 a couple weeks ago, and it made me wonder.

My gun dealer referred to it as "racial profiling" when I mentioned it.

dogtown tom · July 24, 2012, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Sparks1957 My gun dealer referred to it as "racial profiling" when I mentioned it.

He's either an idiot or doesn't have a clue what the term "racial profiling" really means.

ScottRiqui · July 24, 2012, 03:33 PM

Quote:

He's either an idiot or doesn't have a clue what the term "racial profiling" really means.

Can't it be both??

Sparks1957 · July 24, 2012, 03:47 PM

Quote:

He's either an idiot or doesn't have a clue what the term "racial profiling" really means

Just reporting what was said... I wonder what ATF hopes to get from this data?

**Aguila Blanca** · July 24, 2012, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wyoredman

Dogtown, Your explination makes sense... kind of. I cosidder being "hispanic" as having familial roots in central and south America. Kind of like being eropean, or asian, or north american, or african.

South or central America would be Latino (from "Latin America"). Hispanic would be from Spain.

My wife is a Latina. Although her family on both sides is directly descended from the Spanish conquistadores she does not claim to be Hispanic.

**Tom Servo** · July 24, 2012, 06:12 PM

We're really drifting, here.

The change removing the 90 days' proof of residency requirement comes from a 2011 DOJ decision that it was unlawful to treat resident aliens differently than citizens.

As far as the change to the ethnicity fields, I don't know. If anyone else does, feel free to chime in.

Otherwise, let's leave general discussions of race to another forum, as they're not appropriate here.

Wyoredman · July 24, 2012, 06:17 PM

Tom Servo,

I agree, this thread did drift. I think the ATF drifted also when they added that question.

Feel free to close the thread before someone offends someone. I don't think anyone has an answer to my original question anyhow.

Thanks for the responses!

July 24, 2012, 12:20 PM	#1
Wyoredman Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2011 Location: Wyoming Posts: 1,374	New 4473 and Hispanic question? I just completed one of the new 4473's at my LGS. It appears the only differance is that they added a question asking if I'm Hispanic or Non-Hispanic! What is the thinking behind this small change on the 4473? It seems a bit strange because the very next question still asks me to indicate my race. Anyone know what gives? __________________ Go Pokes! Go Rams!

July 24, 2012, 12:34 PM	#3
Wyoredman Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2011 Location: Wyoming Posts: 1,374	I understand that, but why ask about only the hispanics? Why are we not required to indicate if we are Italian, Irish, Chinese? This has me perplexed? __________________ Go Pokes! Go Rams!

July 24, 2012, 12:52 PM	#4
KMAX Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2011 Location: Texas Posts: 1,193	Ethnic profiling! Strike that question. I too have wondered about those questions, but not worried a great deal about them. What languages is this form available in? Just curious. __________________ This is my gun. There are many like her, but this one is mine. I'm not old. I'm CLASSIC!

July 24, 2012, 01:06 PM	#6
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,694	What an odd thing. I despise this whole concept of asking about "race". Where's the check box for "human"? There is only one race. Besides which, they've got my full name, address, SSN and DOB. I suppose there's some other guy with the same name, DOB and SSN who lives in the apartment below me, but, WHOOPS! He's "Hispanic", so WHEW!, that differentiates us. Aargh! __________________ https://ecommercearms.com I am the owner/operator! Ask me for custom prices! No sales tax outside CO!

July 24, 2012, 01:11 PM	#7
Live Free Member Join Date: February 10, 2010 Location: Texas Posts: 91	2000 & 2010 US Census asks the same This question is not new but is interesting as to why the US government wants to know about your ethnicity/race with regards to Hispanics & Non-Hispanics. The 2010 Census source: http://www.census.gov/schools/pdf/2010form_info.pdf Question 8: Is Person 1 Hispanic, Latino, or Spanish origin? Question 9: What is Person 1's race? The 2000 Census source: http://www.census.gov/dmd/www/pdf/d61a.pdf Question 7: Is the Person Spanish/Hispanic/Latino? Question 8: What is the persons race? I found an interesting report on the result of the 2010 census discussing the issue, which states that in 1997, the OMB (Office of Management & Budget's) revised the standards of classifications. ".... 1997 Revisions to the Standards for the Classification of Federal Data on Race and Ethnicity. These federal standards mandate that race and Ethnicity (Hispanic origin) are separate and distinct concepts and that when collecting these data via self-identification, two different questions must be used." source: http://www.census.gov/prod/cen2010/b...c2010br-04.pdf

July 24, 2012, 12:31 PM	#2
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	At one time Hispanic was not a race but an ethnicity, much like Italian, Irish or Chinese, but Hispanic was considered Caucasian - remember, Spaniards are white European

July 24, 2012, 01:14 PM	#8
cannonfire Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2010 Location: Georgia Posts: 556	Maybe I'm out in left field and probably am, but could this question have anything to do with Fast & Furious?

July 24, 2012, 01:21 PM	#9
Tom Servo Staff Join Date: September 27, 2008 Location: Foothills of the Appalachians Posts: 13,093	I once asked and was told that the "Race" field was for statistical gathering. Beyond that, who knows? __________________ Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change. --Randall Munroe

July 24, 2012, 01:39 PM	#10
Coach Z Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2011 Location: RI Posts: 795	I bought a few new guns recently and missed the box altogether. Just went through my normal check check yes no. I was reminded by the staff at the lgs that I missed a box and I said huh? It struck me as really strange because yes the next question is race? What the heck. Just seems like its trying to pacify a certain group and at the same time make the whole process more ambiguous.

July 24, 2012, 01:43 PM	#11
BarryLee Senior Member Join Date: July 29, 2010 Location: The ATL (OTP) Posts: 3,965	Ok, forgive me, but I am a little unclear on how this actual data is used. I was under the impression that the forms were maintained by the FFL, so how does the Government get the demographic data? Is it transmitted during the NICS background check? Are the forms actual sent to the BATFE? __________________ A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it ... gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman

July 24, 2012, 02:26 PM	#13
Wyoredman Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2011 Location: Wyoming Posts: 1,374	Completely irrelevent to the purchase of a firearm is the fact wether I consinder myself Hispanic or Non-Hispanic. That is why I find this question to be 100% out in left field. Has the ATF given any info to you FFl's as to why they need this info? Very, very curious thing. __________________ Go Pokes! Go Rams!

July 24, 2012, 02:34 PM	#15
SHNOMIDO Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 423	A part of the equation some people may be missing is that it is possible to be "Black" and "Hispanic" concurrently, so certain people would mark African American and Hispanic on these types of forms. Why this matters I still don't know...

July 24, 2012, 02:54 PM	#18
Wyoredman Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2011 Location: Wyoming Posts: 1,374	Dogtown, Your explination makes sense... kind of. I cosidder being "hispanic" as having familial roots in central and south America. Kind of like being eropean, or asian, or north american, or african. __________________ Go Pokes! Go Rams!

July 24, 2012, 03:02 PM	#19
Sparks1957 Senior Member Join Date: September 4, 2011 Location: Vermont Posts: 1,552	I noticed this question when I picked up my P-11 a couple weeks ago, and it made me wonder. My gun dealer referred to it as "racial profiling" when I mentioned it.

July 24, 2012, 06:12 PM	#24
Tom Servo Staff Join Date: September 27, 2008 Location: Foothills of the Appalachians Posts: 13,093	We're really drifting, here. The change removing the 90 days' proof of residency requirement comes from a 2011 DOJ decision that it was unlawful to treat resident aliens differently than citizens. As far as the change to the ethnicity fields, I don't know. If anyone else does, feel free to chime in. Otherwise, let's leave general discussions of race to another forum, as they're not appropriate here. __________________ Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change. --Randall Munroe

July 24, 2012, 06:17 PM	#25
Wyoredman Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2011 Location: Wyoming Posts: 1,374	Tom Servo, I agree, this thread did drift. I think the ATF drifted also when they added that question. Feel free to close the thread before someone offends someone. I don't think anyone has an answer to my original question anyhow. Thanks for the responses! __________________ Go Pokes! Go Rams!