"FrankenRuger MAX" - the quest for the ultimate in weird BEGINS!

Jim March · May 21, 2012, 04:17 PM

OK. So most of you know about "Maurice", the shell-ejecting-under-gas-pressure Ruger SA (New Vaquero in 357). If not:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZAGpJr5RsU

The next step (naturally!) is magazine feeding - spring-loaded tubes plugging into a new hole in the recoil shield just left of the hammer. Once the cylinder is dry and the first empty chamber passes in front of the mag, a new round slams forward into that chamber, goes once to the right to fire, once more to the right to get gas-ejected by tapped muzzle gasses off the previous round.

A 1ft long straight mag should be able to hold 8rds of 9mmPara, and I *think* I can make a helical-coil "spiral mag" of up to 20 rounds

.

Now, to do this right the 9mmPara caliber makes a lot more sense. Rimless means a smaller hole in the recoil shield, narrower bore magazines, etc. And a big one: because the 9mm case doesn't need full support at the rear I can run massive chamfers at the rear of each cylinder bore for smoother insertion of rounds. That in turn means a 9mm custom cylinder.

I have $7k that should finally show up this week. No, I'm not spending all that

but doing the mag upgrade is in the budget.

I also have access to a machine shop and a couple of experienced machinists. More on that in a later post.

I'm starting this thread because I lucked out on Ebay and scored this for less than $20:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...vip=true&rt=nc

It's an excess 6.5" section of a Douglas Premium rifle barrel in 9mm, left over from somebody else's project. By pure dumb luck the fattest end is .7" for half an inch, exactly perfect for Ruger's barrel threads (11-16ths/24tpi). Yes, that means it's too narrow. That's OK - because I'm not going to screw it in in the usual fashion. I'll do some other thread on the nose end and use a custom nut out there to push a sleeve backwards over the barrel and press against the front of the frame "Dan Wesson style".

This will let me set the barrel/cylinder gap to whatever I want once the new cylinder is done.

The cylinder will be off a Bowen blank, line-bored custom to the frame and with an oversize cylinder bolt (Power Custom) and oversize base pin (Belt Mountain) added first. The goal is a "zero free play" setup when done.

If I can get it running with 5rds in the cylinder plus a 20rd mag, continuous, I'm going to run an entire SASS stage with no reloading once before they laughingly throw my butt out. Better yet: there's no rules against this critter in either Steel Challenge or ICORE...well...OK, not YET.

zxcvbob · May 21, 2012, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim March

If I can get it running with 5rds in the cylinder plus a 20rd mag, continuous, I'm going to run an entire SASS stage with no reloading once before they laughingly throw my butt out.

So will you be costumed as Artemus Gordon or Dr. Loveless?

ChiefTJS · May 21, 2012, 06:29 PM

Love seeing your endeavors Jim!!!

Newton24b · May 21, 2012, 07:20 PM

well here is the odd thing Mr Jim March,

would you rather have the gun be a 9mm revolver, or would you rather it be a true fun gun in 357 or even 38 special?

it would be a lot cheaper to keep it a 357. Send me a few decent measurements in a drawing of the contraption and ill shoot you back a way to use ACTUAL semi auto pistol magazines in it.

30 round glock magazine seem fun to you? no designing a spiral system, etc.

Bill Akins · May 21, 2012, 07:25 PM

Can't wait to see it Jim. I love projects like that. Had and have a few unusual projects of my own like that.

.

johnwilliamson062 · May 22, 2012, 12:50 AM

I have done a fair number of projects, but I won't claim any were like this.
I do enjoy yours though.

Jim March · May 22, 2012, 03:31 AM

Well a few things here...

9mm has gotten pretty stout of late. This gun will be able to shoot unlimited diets of the nasty +P and +P+ stuff that Winchester and Federal call "police sales only" plus the Buffalo Bore +P+ loads. None exceed the pressure of the full-house 357s. And since I don't hunt, I don't see those edgy 9s as being a big disadvantage. The Federal 147HST in particular is just a beast, and a more advanced projectile than the Gold Dots that remain the best you can get in 357Mag.

Regardless of source, the rounds will have to go through the recoil shield on the left. 9mm will mean a narrower hole.

I can think of a way of feeding out of semi mags: use a forked hammer. The left fork would have a rubber tip and ram home rounds from the top of a mag. Right? But then how do you use the cylinder's capacity before eating out of the mag?

dayman · May 22, 2012, 05:23 AM

That's a very cool gun. I can't wait to see it when it's done. You're never going to have to worry about someone else showing up with the same thing.

Winchester_73 · May 22, 2012, 10:57 AM

Call me crazy, but I prefer to load up a S&W 10 with 6 shots of 38 special, shoot 6 times, and repeat. I guess I'm weird

Jim March · May 22, 2012, 11:10 AM

W73:

The thing is, the 1873 Colt-type ergonomics are just awesome...unmatched in my opinion. Nobody ever went back and tried to update it's rate of fire to modern standards.

Until now

.

Winchester_73 · May 22, 2012, 11:24 AM

Quote:

The thing is, the 1873 Colt-type ergonomics are just awesome...unmatched in my opinion. Nobody ever went back and tried to update it's rate of fire to modern standards.

I agree about the ergonomics. They are fantastic in the hand. If you get time, could you also install a tactical rail somewhere on the gun? One of the problems with the SAA is that there is nowhere to attach a bayonet or any other accessories such as a tactical light, laser, or pistol-handle foregrip (like for an AR 15).

A little history: before the US entered the civil war against Soviet Germany, they actually dropped the SAA in favor of the Wesson & Ruger 38 magnum because of the lack of bayonet attachment. The pistol bayonet mandation was part of the Treaty of Bonzai. Go look it up in your history books children! You probably didn't know that until I taught you right just now.

Salmoneye · May 22, 2012, 11:26 AM

Makes me smile every time I see that...

Jim March · May 22, 2012, 01:39 PM

Quote:

If you get time, could you also install a tactical rail somewhere on the gun?

Don't tempt me.

lee n. field · May 22, 2012, 03:18 PM

Quote:

If you get time, could you also install a tactical rail somewhere on the gun?

Point it upward. Use it to mount a parasol, for those hot Arizona days.

johnwilliamson062 · May 22, 2012, 11:05 PM

Quote:

I agree about the ergonomics. They are fantastic in the hand. If you get time, could you also install a tactical rail somewhere on the gun? One of the problems with the SAA is that there is nowhere to attach a bayonet or any other accessories such as a tactical light, laser, or pistol-handle foregrip (like for an AR 15).

I imagined the addition of a full basket rapier style with a laser from a rail at the bottom of the grip.

Buzzcook · May 22, 2012, 11:19 PM

A tube magazine would let you retain the .357/.38 and look steam punkier, imho.

FrankenMauser · May 23, 2012, 03:23 AM

Quote:

I can think of a way of feeding out of semi mags: use a forked hammer. The left fork would have a rubber tip and ram home rounds from the top of a mag. Right? But then how do you use the cylinder's capacity before eating out of the mag?

That hammer would need a very strong spring, and a LOT of mass. It would have to overcome the friction of stripping and accelerating the cartridge from the magazine and still having enough inertia to detonate the primer, while still providing a reasonable lock time.
Possible, but not worth the effort and the perpetually-sore thumb.

treg · May 23, 2012, 06:45 AM

If the hammer operated a levered arm it could be made to load a round as the hammer is cocked.

Husqvarna · May 23, 2012, 11:40 AM

yours looks way nicer than this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKE2Y...feature=relmfu

Super Sneaky Steve · May 23, 2012, 04:56 PM

Awesome!

I have my own idea for a revolver/auto mix, but it's nothing like this.

Jo6pak · May 23, 2012, 06:26 PM

First of all, I love these types of wacky builds. The problem solving, design process and mad-scientist engineering always intrigues me.
So, please forgive what may be a very stupid question...

Without the use of a moon-clip, how do you keep the rimless 9mm cartridge from sliding too far into the cyclinder. How would it head space properly?

**Aguila Blanca** · May 23, 2012, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jo6pak

Without the use of a moon-clip, how do you keep the rimless 9mm cartridge from sliding too far into the cyclinder. How would it head space properly?

Same way Ruger does with their 9mm conversion cylinder for the .357 Blackhawk: The chamber is machined to the depth of the case, and a shoulder stops the case from going father forward.

Exactly the same way headspace is handled in a semi-automatic.

Jo6pak · May 23, 2012, 09:30 PM

OK, I thought he was using an existing revolver cylinder. I missed the part in the OP about having a new cylinder machined.

Jim March · May 23, 2012, 10:52 PM

Exactly - hence the need to spend $250 on a Bowen blank

. I'll also rent a 9mm chamber reamer that does the necessary "step".

Oh well.

Jim March · May 29, 2012, 01:44 AM

Continues here:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show....php?p=5097462

Includes pics of the new barrel blank, design sketches...post more THERE please, not here...

May 21, 2012, 04:17 PM	#1
Jim March Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 1999 Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA Posts: 7,417	"FrankenRuger MAX" - the quest for the ultimate in weird BEGINS! OK. So most of you know about "Maurice", the shell-ejecting-under-gas-pressure Ruger SA (New Vaquero in 357). If not: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZAGpJr5RsU The next step (naturally!) is magazine feeding - spring-loaded tubes plugging into a new hole in the recoil shield just left of the hammer. Once the cylinder is dry and the first empty chamber passes in front of the mag, a new round slams forward into that chamber, goes once to the right to fire, once more to the right to get gas-ejected by tapped muzzle gasses off the previous round. A 1ft long straight mag should be able to hold 8rds of 9mmPara, and I think I can make a helical-coil "spiral mag" of up to 20 rounds . Now, to do this right the 9mmPara caliber makes a lot more sense. Rimless means a smaller hole in the recoil shield, narrower bore magazines, etc. And a big one: because the 9mm case doesn't need full support at the rear I can run massive chamfers at the rear of each cylinder bore for smoother insertion of rounds. That in turn means a 9mm custom cylinder. I have $7k that should finally show up this week. No, I'm not spending all that but doing the mag upgrade is in the budget. I also have access to a machine shop and a couple of experienced machinists. More on that in a later post. I'm starting this thread because I lucked out on Ebay and scored this for less than $20: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...vip=true&rt=nc It's an excess 6.5" section of a Douglas Premium rifle barrel in 9mm, left over from somebody else's project. By pure dumb luck the fattest end is .7" for half an inch, exactly perfect for Ruger's barrel threads (11-16ths/24tpi). Yes, that means it's too narrow. That's OK - because I'm not going to screw it in in the usual fashion. I'll do some other thread on the nose end and use a custom nut out there to push a sleeve backwards over the barrel and press against the front of the frame "Dan Wesson style". This will let me set the barrel/cylinder gap to whatever I want once the new cylinder is done. The cylinder will be off a Bowen blank, line-bored custom to the frame and with an oversize cylinder bolt (Power Custom) and oversize base pin (Belt Mountain) added first. The goal is a "zero free play" setup when done. If I can get it running with 5rds in the cylinder plus a 20rd mag, continuous, I'm going to run an entire SASS stage with no reloading once before they laughingly throw my butt out. Better yet: there's no rules against this critter in either Steel Challenge or ICORE...well...OK, not YET. __________________ Jim March

May 21, 2012, 07:25 PM	#5
Bill Akins Senior Member Join Date: August 29, 2007 Location: Hudson, Florida Posts: 1,135	Can't wait to see it Jim. I love projects like that. Had and have a few unusual projects of my own like that. . __________________ "This is my Remy and this is my Colt. Remy loads easy and topstrap strong, Colt balances better and never feels wrong. A repro black powder revolver gun, they smoke and shoot lead and give me much fun. I can't figure out which one I like better, they're both fine revolvers that fit in my leather". "To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target".

May 22, 2012, 03:31 AM	#7
Jim March Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 1999 Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA Posts: 7,417	Well a few things here... 9mm has gotten pretty stout of late. This gun will be able to shoot unlimited diets of the nasty +P and +P+ stuff that Winchester and Federal call "police sales only" plus the Buffalo Bore +P+ loads. None exceed the pressure of the full-house 357s. And since I don't hunt, I don't see those edgy 9s as being a big disadvantage. The Federal 147HST in particular is just a beast, and a more advanced projectile than the Gold Dots that remain the best you can get in 357Mag. Regardless of source, the rounds will have to go through the recoil shield on the left. 9mm will mean a narrower hole. I can think of a way of feeding out of semi mags: use a forked hammer. The left fork would have a rubber tip and ram home rounds from the top of a mag. Right? But then how do you use the cylinder's capacity before eating out of the mag? __________________ Jim March

May 22, 2012, 11:10 AM	#10
Jim March Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 1999 Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA Posts: 7,417	W73: The thing is, the 1873 Colt-type ergonomics are just awesome...unmatched in my opinion. Nobody ever went back and tried to update it's rate of fire to modern standards. Until now . __________________ Jim March

May 23, 2012, 06:45 AM	#18
treg Senior Member Join Date: November 26, 2006 Posts: 1,104	If the hammer operated a levered arm it could be made to load a round as the hammer is cocked. __________________ .44 Special: For those who get it, no explanation is necessary. For those who don't, no explanation is possible.

May 21, 2012, 06:29 PM	#3
ChiefTJS Member Join Date: June 25, 2009 Location: Omaha, Nebraska Posts: 97	Love seeing your endeavors Jim!!!

May 21, 2012, 07:20 PM	#4
Newton24b Junior member Join Date: February 10, 2009 Posts: 974	well here is the odd thing Mr Jim March, would you rather have the gun be a 9mm revolver, or would you rather it be a true fun gun in 357 or even 38 special? it would be a lot cheaper to keep it a 357. Send me a few decent measurements in a drawing of the contraption and ill shoot you back a way to use ACTUAL semi auto pistol magazines in it. 30 round glock magazine seem fun to you? no designing a spiral system, etc.

May 22, 2012, 12:50 AM	#6
johnwilliamson062 Junior member Join Date: May 16, 2008 Posts: 9,994	I have done a fair number of projects, but I won't claim any were like this. I do enjoy yours though.

May 22, 2012, 05:23 AM	#8
dayman Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2011 Location: The Woods Posts: 1,197	That's a very cool gun. I can't wait to see it when it's done. You're never going to have to worry about someone else showing up with the same thing.

May 22, 2012, 10:57 AM	#9
Winchester_73 Senior Member Join Date: December 21, 2008 Location: Pittsburgh PA Posts: 2,863	Call me crazy, but I prefer to load up a S&W 10 with 6 shots of 38 special, shoot 6 times, and repeat. I guess I'm weird

May 22, 2012, 11:26 AM	#12
Salmoneye Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 2011 Location: Vermont Posts: 2,076	Makes me smile every time I see that...

May 22, 2012, 11:19 PM	#16
Buzzcook Senior Member Join Date: November 29, 2007 Location: Everett, WA Posts: 6,126	A tube magazine would let you retain the .357/.38 and look steam punkier, imho.

May 23, 2012, 11:40 AM	#19
Husqvarna Senior Member Join Date: May 7, 2012 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,000	yours looks way nicer than this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKE2Y...feature=relmfu

May 23, 2012, 04:56 PM	#20
Super Sneaky Steve Senior Member Join Date: August 9, 2011 Posts: 1,330	Awesome! I have my own idea for a revolver/auto mix, but it's nothing like this.

May 23, 2012, 06:26 PM	#21
Jo6pak Senior Member Join Date: August 5, 2010 Location: West Coast...of WI Posts: 1,663	First of all, I love these types of wacky builds. The problem solving, design process and mad-scientist engineering always intrigues me. So, please forgive what may be a very stupid question... Without the use of a moon-clip, how do you keep the rimless 9mm cartridge from sliding too far into the cyclinder. How would it head space properly?

May 23, 2012, 09:30 PM	#23
Jo6pak Senior Member Join Date: August 5, 2010 Location: West Coast...of WI Posts: 1,663	OK, I thought he was using an existing revolver cylinder. I missed the part in the OP about having a new cylinder machined.

May 23, 2012, 10:52 PM	#24
Jim March Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 1999 Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA Posts: 7,417	Exactly - hence the need to spend $250 on a Bowen blank . I'll also rent a 9mm chamber reamer that does the necessary "step". Oh well. __________________ Jim March

May 29, 2012, 01:44 AM	#25
Jim March Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 1999 Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA Posts: 7,417	Continues here: http://thefiringline.com/forums/show....php?p=5097462 Includes pics of the new barrel blank, design sketches...post more THERE please, not here... __________________ Jim March