.38 Special 158 Grain JHP with Bullseye

[BntBrl]

I have the Montana Gold 158 grain jacketed hollow point. They told me to use Hornady, sierra, or nosler data to load same type bullet. I cant find anything with tthe 158 grain jhp with bullsye in any of my manuals.

I found this on teh net, and being on teh net, dont trust it. If you know of a reliable source from this please let me know.

158-160 grain JHP or JSP (Jacketed Hollow or Soft Point)
Bullseye 3.5 gr. 805 FPS ---------------------------(Im using Bullseye)
Unique 4.2 gr. 800
2400 7.6 gr. 850
Universal 4.4 gr. 778
HP38 3.7 gr. 819
HS6 6.5 gr. 914
No. 2 4.0 gr. 756
No. 5 5.8 gr. 841
231 (+P) 4.4 gr. 720*
540 (+P) 6.6 gr. 800*
2400 (+P) 7.8 gr. 910*
Unique(+P) 4.4 gr. 885*
* All PLUS P loads for guns designed for it (20,000 PSI)

The lee manual says for 160 grain jhp use 3.4 grains of bullseye.

I am not sure what to think. I think that if I absolutely had to load something and my life depended on it I would load 3.4 grains of bullseye with the jhp 158 grain bullet. I only have two references. One says 158 grain with 3.5 max, and one says 160 grain 3.4 starting load.

[cdrt]

The Speer #11 manual shows the following load for the .38 Special with a 158 grain JHP with Bullseye for a +P load:

starting is 4.3 grains at 813 fps
max is 4.9 at 850 fps

My Hornady manual from 1973 shows the following load for the .38 Special with a 158 grain JHP with Bullseye but it is not labeled +P:

start 4.3 grains at 750 fps
max is 5.1 grains at 900 fps

Hope this helps.

[BntBrl]

It seems the 158 grain jhp isnt as popular in the standard .38 spl load. Most data for it is for 357 or +P.

Thanks.

[BntBrl]

I loaded 3.4 grains and shot 5 of them. It felt lighter in recoil than factory 258 RN remingtons. I will load some more up to go through .

[Stumper]

158-160 grain jacketed bullet loads for .38 special show a lot of discrepancy based upon source and bullet maker. The lowest in my multiple sources is 3.5 grains bullseye with an unspecified 160grain-Source Alliant. Highest 2 are 4.9and 5.0 grains for a +P loading. Amongst the remaining sources 4.1, 4.3 and 4.5 grains all appear as max loadings. 4.5 shows up as max at standard pressure AND as max +P.

[SL1]

I am not sure what to think. I think that if I absolutely had to load something and my life depended on it I would load 3.4 grains of bullseye with the jhp 158 grain bullet.

You did not specify what gun you would be using, and that matters. IF it is really a .357 magnum or a gun of similar strength, then stout loads are OK. But, if it is a fairly weak gun, then standard (non+P loads) are required. Bullseye powder is pretty fast, and tends to create high pressures without high velocities in 38 Special loads. A slower (medium) pistol powder might get you more velocity at non+P pressure.

Also, you should be told that recent manuals have started shying away from 158 grain bullets in 38 Special cartridges because there is some concern about getting a bullet stuck in the barrel. The problem is that it takes so little powder to reach 38 Special pressures with the heavier bullets that there is POTENTIALLY not enough gas to force a slow-moving, higher-friction (because longer) bullet out the end of a long barrel before too much of the gas leaks out of the largest of the barrel-to-cylinder gaps found in some guns. So, if you are shooting a longer barrel (even 6" is "long"), please consider that too-light a charge may be a problem with 158 grain bullets too. But, THAT problem is something you can watch for as you develop your load. Just be SURE your last bullet left the barrel before you pull the trigger again. If recoil felt odd, or you do not see a new hole in the target, please check the bore. And, remember as you blast away later with your final load recipe, changes in temperature can change pressures a lot, so a load that is fine in summer MIGHT still stick a bullet in winter.

SL1

[Slamfire]

I shoot 158 JHP's to basically blow any lead out the barrel, after I have finished shooting lots of 158 L bullets.

Loading data today has been real dumbed down, the load of 3.5 grs Bullseye with a 158, any 158, was a common standard load.

I have shot cases of 158 grain 38 Special loads with 3.5 grs Bullseye. It is accurate and shoots to point of aim in my fixed sight pistols.

As you can see, the JHP load chronographed much slower than the Lead.


Colt Police Positive Special 4" Barrel



158 LRN 3.5grs Bullseye Mixed cases Fed 100 4-Sep-05 T = 72 F
Ave Vel = 759.2
Std Dev = 36
ES 104.8
High 813
Low 709
N = 32

158 LRN 3.5grs Bullseye Mixed cases WSP 29-Jan-06 T = 68 F
Ave Vel = 760.3
Std Dev = 27.53
ES 111.4
High 814.1
Low 702.6
N = 29

158 JHP 3.5grs Bullseye Mixed cases WSP 29-Jan-06 T = 68 F
Ave Vel = 633.1
Std Dev = 41.32
ES 113.2
High 706.7
Low 593.5
N = 6

[BntBrl]

My revolver is a Rossi M68 with a 1 7/8" barrel. It is pretty short and small and easy to carry. The holster doesnt bunch up because the whole thing is compact. It is relatively accurate, or at least I can shoot much better with this than most other pistols. Not sure if its the gun or that Ive had it for quite a while and got used to it.

I cannot find squat about the M68. I will call Rossi tomorrow and see if they can tell me anything about the pistol. They got bought out (Interarms amyway) or something. I have heard that the M68 can shoot +P but it will wear faster. I suppose that only stands to reason doesnt it?

Thanks

[Stumper]

Your Rossi is NOT +P rated......and yes it can shoot plus P but will wear faster.(.38 special +P loadings are a small enough pressure jump above standard pressures that they should never destroy a proof tested /safe revolver in one or a handful of shots. The issue is gradually ruining the gun-not turning it into an instant hand grenade).
I have owned a Rossi 88 (the stainless version) 3 inch for many years. It is a delightful little gun. Lead bullets are THE WAY to go in .38 special IMO.

[BntBrl]

I normally when buying bullets get all lead. I picked up these ajcketed ones because they were available locally. The lead wc or rn arent available to me locally. No one else I shoot with has a .38 or 357 that reloads, so I dont buy 6000 rounds at a time. The remington round nose 158 grain are dirty for some reason. My hands have powder residue all over them when I shoot a 100 rounds. The reloads I made didnt leave any noticeable amount on them. My hands looked like I held something up with my fingers to spray paint something grey.

I imagine that the jacket will wear your gun out faster wont it?

The gun isnt marked +P and I wont shoot it with them unless the factory says otherwise, but it is good to know that if I load a +P by some chance it wont be as likely to grenade.

[SL1]

Your Rossi has an advantage and a disadvantage.

The gun is not suitable for really hot 38 Special handloads, but the short barrel is very unlikely to stick a jacketed bullet with standard loads for heavy bullets.

The reason that you are getting a lot of powder residue is that the powder is burning at really low pressures. That is a problem with low-pressure cartridges and smokeless powders. Smokeless powders "like" higher pressure to burn cleanly and uniformly.

I ran some Quickload calculations that I am not very confident in, so I will tell you what they suggest to me and, at the same time, tell you that you can't rely on these results being very accurate:

It looks to me like your 3.5 grain charge of Bullseye is producing somewhat less than normal working pressure for the cartridge. I think the various manual maximums listed in a previous thread that are in the low-to-mid 4.x grains are more in the ball-park for normal working pressure. But, that depends on the bullet characteristics, and I do not have the necessary data for Montana Gold bullets to get accurate pressure estimates. The facts that your gun is not recoiling as much with your handloads as with factory loads, plus the appearance of a LOT of residue are consistent with the pressure being that low. But, there are other factors that can make the same observations. One factor is that I think you are comparing recoil from lead and jacketed bullets. As Slamfire1's data in a previous post showed, jacketed bullets have a lower muzzle velocity with the same charge weight. So, their recoil will be less. But, that does NOT mean that the pressure is lower; it is just the opposite. Pressure is increased, as indicated by comparing the data for jacketed and lead bullets of the same weight in Hodgdon's manual.

You cannot safely get to high enough pressure to make Bullseye burn cleanly, but going up a little will probably make a noticeable improvement.

Using other powders is an option for getting cleaner burning. Two that come to mind are Hodgdon "Clays" and "Trailboss", but they both have problems in your application.

Clays is a faster powder than Bullseye, so the charge weights are lower. It has a reputation for being cleaner than Bullseye, but it builds pressure FAST as charge weight increases. In your gun, 3.0 grains is probably a good max. But, just going up to 3.1 grains raises pressure 24% (based on Hodgdon's data for the 158 gr Hornady XTP), so you would need to be VERY careful not to get a little too much powder. Weighing every charge of Clays would be a wise procedure if you decided to use it in your gun, and that is a PITA.

Trailboss is a new powder designed from the start to be used in large cases operating at low pressures. But, Hodgdon says to use it only for LEAD bullets, and you have JACKETED. I would not go against Hodgdon's specifications, especially in a weak gun, because using jacketed bullets with this powder might spike pressures.

So, that leaves the rest of the medium-fast powders to consider, and there are many of them. I do not have any experience with them, so I will leave it to others on the forum to suggest which may be cleanest when used in large cases at about 15,000 psi peak pressure. (In other words, people's experiences with these same powders in high pressure cartridges like 9mm and 40 S&W will tell you nothing.)

If you decide to try another powder, you need to get some PRESSURE-TESTED data for it that puts peak pressure around 15,000 psi. (The maximum SAAMI spec for your gun is 17,000 psi, but factory ammo is probably loaded closer to 15,000.) You cannot tell when your handloads are getting close to the limit with the usual "pressure signs" like primer flattening and hard extraction, because your gun is not designed for pressures that even start to cause those things. Even the case "pressure ring" measurement technique is pretty tricky at such low pressures, because 38 Special cases vary a lot and that affects the pressure ring diameter. So, you would need to be VERY knowledgeable and adept at using it before it would be more likely to help you instead of getting you into trouble.

So, I think you an shoot your jacketed heavy bullets safely, but will probably find that cast or swaged lead bullets are a better choice for your particular gun. You can drive lead faster at safe working pressures, which will have a greater effect on a live target. Remember that jacketed bullets will not expand at the velocities your gun can safely produce with heavy bullets. And, blunt nosed bullets have a greater effect than round nosed bullets on live targets.

Stay safe.

SL1

[Smaug]

One comment for the original poster. You said "... if my life depends on it..."

If your life depends on a 38, it is probably for personal protection, not hunting. In that case, do not use reloads. If you have to drill someone, you will probably end up in court, and reloads are easy for a lawyer to demonize.

For me, I'll load any defense revolvers with 38+P JHP that is advertised as "Self Defense" ammo. Just to cover my butt down the road.

For everything else, I'll of course shoot reloads.

[BntBrl]

When I carry the 38 for personal protection I use only factory loaded personal defense factory loads. I really feel that even that in and of itself is asking for trouble instead of using just lead wadcutters.

I would never use my handloads for personal defense unless it was intended for animals as there is a bit of remote areas here in Washington, and even that I don feel comfortable about.

There is a range a block or two from my work so I go to the range 3 times a week and shoot at lunch time for an hour or so.

I meant that "if my life depended on it" would be the only way that I would load ammo without having information from one of the manuals. The manual I had had one charge at min and the other one was near max for the nearly same load in another manual.

The bullseye burns cleaner than the factory remington 158 grain lead round nose. At least it doesnt turn my hands black. The post above about the barrrel length and powders explains a lot to me.

Thanks for the replies.

[stevenorlando]

With my positive police 4" barrel, and 3.5 gr bullseye, the bullet got stuck at the muzzle end.

Steve