caseless ammo... could it really be that easy ???

[Magnum Wheel Man]

a buddy & I were having a discussion the other day, about the Son of Guns show on TV... I think they were working on a Volcanic caseless gun, & making ammo...

... this got us talking about how to do something similar...

what if ( for all practical purposes ) a mini ball style bullet were fabricated ( could be lead, or drilled solid copper ala Barnes style for this discussion ), & powder was filled into the hollow of the mini ball style bullet, & the base of the bullet were sized to allow a standard primer to be pressed into it...

if the base gun chosen fed from the top & ejected out the bottom, the action could allow the fired primer to drop out...

... of course in order to get any power ( & at best we're talking handgun pressures at this point, because of powder capacity ) the bullet would have to be quite long, meaning a faster twist barrel & would be lighter than its standard solid counter part...

just so you know where we've already been in the discussion, thinking something like the 5.7 X 28 rifle, or Calico style carbine, that feeds from the top, switching the barrel to a bore diameter the same as the case, so the magazine could be made to function, using bullets in length close to the same length as the cartridge of the donar gun...

anyone ever thought of anything along these lines ??? want to offer your thoughts ???

[Unclenick]

You've got me confused. If you shape like a Minie ball, you won't have room for enough powder to do much except may a target level load of Bullseye or something. If you hollow out the base for enough powder, you will have a long hollow skirt that blows open at the muzzle, spoiling precision. If you shape the base of the bullet for the powder, do you cake the powder and shape the primer pocket into the cake? If you shape the pocket into the bullet base, where did the hollow for the powder go? Or, is the pocket shaped into a stem coming rrom the inside center of the hollow in the bullet flush with the base and into which you have to drill flash lateral holes, giving you a variant on the front ignition concept?

I'd be thinking Greenie Stickum Caps if the fouling wasn't so corrosive.

[Magnum Wheel Man]

cool... NICK is willing to play...

was thinking Miniball just from a basic concept... ideally a copper or brass bullet ( something like a long 223 bullet ) with a hollow insides as thick as needed to retain it's shape...the longer the better, as far as case capacity

so do normal soft lead miniballs spread open that far??? they are often shot with pretty stout loads for deer hunting... I doubt there would be much diiference ???

for simplicity, I was still thinking along the lines of a boxer primer ( hence the top feed / bottom eject base gun, would allow the primer to fall out after it was expelled from the bullet a "pasty" priming compound would be cool, & allow a more conventional action, with out worrying about spent primers jambing up anything

[Unclenick]

Hmmm. The late Col. Minié's balls were designed to expand to grip the rifling (that didn't come out right). That's how they may be muzzle loaded without engraving them at the muzzle, a process too slow for soldiers in battle. The black powder is digressive burning, so the pressure doesn't stay high far down the bore, especially not with some of the long barrels they used back in his day, and the ball exits without a lot of skirt pressure. A pistol powder like Bullseye should copy that closely enough to be safe.

So, how about an AP round so the bullet core is steel and won't blow out for that reason? A small backward gun barrel. Might be a way to make a big caliber, anyway. Brass should do for a .22 bullet. I see now you were thinking to simply cap the powder space with the primer. That will fire, but we do need to get the cap out of there. Maybe the simplest thing is to chamber the next round with enough vigor to launch the primer out of the muzzle. I keep trying to think of a way to seat the primer backward and strike the anvil form inside and still get the hot gas to the powder.

On the .22 notion, I did a quick calculation of a .175" diameter hollow a half an inch long, and it will hold maybe 2.1 grains of 231. Let's say 1.5 grains to make room for the primer. So that'll shoot a .22 bullet.

[Lost Sheep]

Don't have a primer. Use electricity, like a spark plug. It would take a really good spark, but if the back of the "cartridge" were weak and combustible, a surface-spark spark plug could ignite through the seal, you think?

Lost Sheep, brainstorming.

[jwrowland77]

I watched that same show. It looked pretty awesome to try out.

[serf 'rett]

The primer could externally mounted...

...oh, wait, that was done with a percussion rifle.

I’m a thinkin that the “bolt face” erosion would be significant.

[dacaur]

Hmmm... well, if you insert a steel or brass case into the bullet to contain the pressure, that kinda defeats the purpose of caseless ammo....

I hate to be a party pooper, but the idea in the OP is a non starter.
I see two main problems...

#1, powder space... You are going to have a problem there, if you make the lead around the powder thin to fit more powder, then you have the problem unclenick outlined above, if you make it thicker, you lose powder space... You cannot go above .50 caliber, so you are really limited.... You can only go longer to fit more powder, but that will add weight, increasing powder needs, a vicious cycle....

#2, This one will probably be a bigger problem than #1. With the combustion happening inside the bullet, the sides of the bullet are going to be pressed against the barrel with the same force that the bullet is propelled forward, making for lots of drag and probably horrible leading...

Honestly I doubt the "bullet" would even leave the barrel, thats assuming the thing doesnt just explode.....

[Ethan.G]

you guys are missing a Very big problem with ceseless ammo "Cook Off" the entire reason for caseless ammo is to up the firing rate by eliminating the extraction phase, however with high firing rate means high speed right? well the brass takes a lot of that heat away from the gun, with out brass theres no heat removal and the chamber gets hot, VERY HOT, hot enough to light the caseless ammo before you pull the trigger dumping the rest of the mag and melting the gun.

some SciFi by the name of masseffect came up with a work around by adding something called "thermal clips" basically some conductive that you place near the chamber and it toss it after it heats up. i imagine you can use some sort of metal who's color changes appropriately with heat telling you to replace it but to my knowledge it has never been done before (done quite a bit of research on the subject if you cant tell )

caseless has been tried but never had any success. Go check out the G11, amazing rifle and awesome ammo

[Ethan.G]

also i saw the episode your talking about, they never addressed what happened to the primer after firing, to my understanding it was pushed out the barrel by the next round which sounds terrible to me

[Jerry45]

Watching those morons will rot your brain.

[DaleA]

Saw the same episode and was also very frustrated by the fact they didn't tell what happened to the primer.

Also...watching them drill out lead bullets...don't they own a drill press???

(Answer: (probably) 'Real men don't do drill press'.)

[Magnum Wheel Man]

the electricity is an interesting thought... CVA has an electric fired muzzleloader, & if that spark plug can handle the fouling effects of black powder the same type system could be adapted to a smokeless system...

will admit we had not talked about the heat, & that would be an issue on anything of higher velocity or of rapid firing... maybe some sort of heat sink could be used similar to how it's done in a PC...

with conventional powders I think pistol "type" velocities would be all that could be attained without "bullets" getting to be as long as rifle cases, but then pistol caliber carbines are popular... one thing... the brass / copper bullets are already lighter than lead, hollowing them out for propellant would only make them lighter... I guess I see the bullets being basicly the same length as the cartridge ( like a case turned around backwards, & with a more aerodynamic front... & a bit more mass )

bolt face errosion is likely the next issue... but there surely must be materials that could work there ??? ceramics or ???

one interesting thought... if the case ( think of that bottle necked 223 case for example ) were turned around backwards, bottlenecked to fit the primer instead of the bullets, it might burn out after it leaves the barrel, like shooting rockets out of a barrel ??? or maybe it would just blow the back straight to the size of the bore, similar to fire forming a brass case... depending on bullet skirt thickness of course...

[briandg]

it is conceivable that something could be created with solid propellant extrusion. A projectile could be created with a spud on the back that would be friction fit into a hollow in the solid propellant cylinder.

We make extruded propellant used in artillery that is quite a bit like polyurethane in nature. so, create a cylinder of this. use a bullet of like diameter, like a pistol round. Bolt face should have a heavy blasting spark plug, just like a car plug, that would send an arc of at least 1/8 inch across the base of that propellent slug, igniting it at the base, and letting it burn just like a rocket would.

Tapered bolt with high temp o rings, a solid push into locked battery, and a shroud would be mandatory. The shroud should capture any leakage, and there obviously will be leakage, and expell it forward through a channel under the barrel.

Setting the thing up as a rocket propelled type cartridge that would burn front to back instead of a fully involved powder charge would allow pressures to remain more constant chamber to muzzle, and hence, lower.

I am also picturing it as a semi auto, gas operated, with a reciprocating action. like the old steam engines.
A charge of bled off gas blows bolt out of battery. When the bolt reaches full extension backward, a bolt return spring is assisted by the same gas that opened the action being vented into a system that forces it back forward.

There are ENORMOUS problems with this. One of the biggest problems I see are that the caseless rounds are absolutely not safe around heat sources, and are going to be incredibly fragile.

But, bottom line, imo, is that without solid propellant charges and reliable electronic ignition, this is impossible. You also have to find a way to seal that chamber against 20k psi shot after shot. There's no way to do that, I don't think, that will be better than just staying with the good old metallic cartridge.

[SVO]

I saw the same episode also. I was surprised that the guy didn't put the drill bit thru his hand while drilling the base of the cast bullet. Even more surprised that it actually worked.

[Jimro]

Yes this would work, and I have been wracking my brain to remember which sci-fi novel I read had the exact same setup for caseless ammo, I think it was one of the "Alien v. Predator" books...

Caseless ammo has always been "simple" in concept. In actuality the heat management issue leading to cookoffs has always been the limiting factor.

Even in traditional ammo the issue of heat management comes into play, having been on a range where a kid ran so many mags through his issue M16 that it started cooking off rounds I think that we have a ways to go yet.

Which makes front ignition tubes in brass cases such an intriguing answer to a problem that most of us will never have. The primer lights off, but instead of going to the powder at the base of the cartridge it goes down a long tube to the powder at the base of the projectile, causing the powder to burn from front to back instead of back to front. If there were a way to make this type of ammunition cheaply it could give machine gunners more time between barrel changes as barrels would heat more slowly.

Jimro

[Jim Watson]

As I recall from an old, old article, the original Volcanic "Rocket Ball" powder cavity was closed by a cork disk with a patch of fulminate in the middle. Combustible primer and frangible closure, there was nothing to eject. The guns WERE provided with an extractor, a sharp hook meant to pierce the cork and unload an unfired bullet. Didn't work very well, from what I recall.

You will note the TV Volcanic was never shown being loaded or fired as a repeater.

There is a kind of mad machinist video showing the building of a repro Volcanic. But it was made to shoot conventional cartridges, just shortened to fit the action length. Therefore operating more like an 1866 than a regulation Volcanic.

As far as smokeless powder in a Modern Rocket Ball, the French GTV's copper bullets are deeply hollowed out and the powder fill is said to go all the way up into the bullet from the case. Must take some fancy powder charging machinery at the factory. But the hollowbase bullet is standing the pressure.

I await the OP getting a little lathe and cranking out some trick bullets.

[Ideal Tool]

Hello, do any of you guys remember the Daisey VL caseless rifles? K Mart used to sell them. This used compressed air via. spring-piston to squirt superheated air for ignition. There were corrosion problems in chambers..the sudden high heat..with no case to insulate bare steel produced condensation & rusted chambers.
I have always thought a hollow-base bullet filled with powder could be used in percussion revolvers for Cowboy action..though it would be quite weak in power..it would be right up their mouse-fart shooting alley!

[Jim243]

Sorry guys, but caseless ammo is not a new idea. The gun was called a gyrojet and failed misrably. The problem is with caseless ammo the bullet has to build up speed in the barrel and there is no case to build up pressure to a point that would accurately place the bullet on a target at any long distance. You would have to hold your hand steady as the bullet made it's way down the barrel to build up to speed.

Now Pyrodex (solid propelent) and a Sabot work well in a muzzle loader but how do you package them together as one unit with the primer?

Jim

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrojet

[Ideal Tool]

Hello, Jim243...What you just said..the o'l light bulb went on..solid propellant..sabot..how to combine primer?? You just described ( without the primer) for all practicle purposes, the Dryse Needle-fire. by using (or not) a sabot around bullet & attatched pyro-pellet..a percussion cap in the middle...Viola!

[Jim Watson]

Jim,

The Gyrojet is a true rocket with appreciable burn time and distance. One source said 25 feet. That allowed for all sorts of inconsistencies to build up and accuracy was poor. I always thought it would be good for a very light machine gun on a light aircraft, where range to target would always be beyond burnout and the dispersion of shots would just give a better chance of a hit.

Caseless ammunition propellant from Volcanic to Daisy VL to H&K G11 and several others is consumed in the chamber and first few inches of barrel just as with a cartridge gun.

They are not the same thing.

[Jim243]

The Gyrojet is a true rocket with appreciable burn time and distance. One source said 25 feet

True, it used rocket ammo with little jet ports in it, to spin it, since the barrel was a smooth bore, and it took between 30 to 60 feet out the barrel to reach speed.

The real problem comes in how to seal the chamber so that all the energy is used to force the bullet out the front of the barrel. An inline muzzle loader does that by sealing the breach with a breach plug, but that means you have to load from the front of the barrel. A ship board 12 inch cannon does that with an over sized locking breach, but that process makes them both single shot weapons. Retaining enough energy within the chamber to force a projectile accurately out the barrel will be the problem unless you use some sort of guidance system to guide the bullet (ROCKET) to it's target.

Brass cases do it well in expanding to provide a seal so that the majority of gases go out the barrel and not back to the bolt or breach. While the idea of a caseless round is neat idea, I do not see cases being replaced any time soon.

It would be an interesting project to try.
Jim

This one goes back over 150 years ago.

http://www.guns.com/the-case-for-cas...rifle-678.html

[TriumphGuy]

If I'm visualizing this correctly, there would be also the problem of figuring out what the "cartridge" would headspace on. Especially if it was essentially a hollowed out bullet.