Why not plastic handgun shells, like shotgun shells?

leadcounsel · May 23, 2011, 01:04 PM

With the expense of brass, why not mini-shotgun style shells for handgun rounds?

BarryLee · May 23, 2011, 01:06 PM

Not an expert, but wouldn't the pressure be too high?

**Mike Irwin** · May 23, 2011, 01:08 PM

It's been tried with some of the lower pressure shells like .38 special.

There was a company back in the 1980s when I was in college that offered them. Supposedly you didn't need any tools to reload them. You did need the special heeled bullets, though. You couldn't use regular bullets.

BarryLee · May 23, 2011, 01:10 PM

Oops, maybe I misread your OP. Are you suggesting the use of something like buck shot as opposed to a bullet? If so aren’t there options already?

aarondhgraham · May 23, 2011, 01:17 PM

I was certain that I once had a plastic .38 special cartridge,,,
It was something I found in a box of old junk I got at an auction.

Glad to know that I'm not as senile as I thought I was.

Aarond

Casimer · May 23, 2011, 01:30 PM

There have also been plastic cases intended for plastic training bullets (e.g. Speer - http://www.speer-bullets.com/product...g_bullets.aspx )

TheGoldenState · May 23, 2011, 01:41 PM

I've had some plastics before as well. The marbles are stood good up there

Willie Lowman · May 23, 2011, 02:16 PM

A company made plastic cased .223 FMJ ammo a while back. The owner of my LGS showed me one of these rounds in his "oddities" collection. I don't think they are produced any more.

http://www.smallarmsreview.com/pdf/Natecammo.pdf

brickeyee · May 23, 2011, 02:38 PM

Shotgun pressures are lower than many handgun rounds, allowing use of plastic for cases.

As the peak chamber pressures go up it puts a real premium on using metal.

Mello2u · May 23, 2011, 02:46 PM

I love this forum. The esoteric information available here is wonderful.

kozak6 · May 23, 2011, 06:07 PM

Currently, the US military is experimenting with plastic rifle cartridges in the LSAT project. It's reportedly going quite well.

lamarw · May 23, 2011, 07:13 PM

Not a good idea for us reloaders. I am not sure they could be reloaded or not, but I would bet they would not hold up for too many if any reloadings.

BigJimP · May 23, 2011, 07:43 PM

As a reloader ....that picked up a few thousand cases off the floor of my local range on Sunday ...I am strictly opposed to using plastic cases in handgun loads ...

but looking at my reloading tables for my shotshells ...12ga, 20ga, 28ga and .410's ....the pressures are mostly between 10,000 and 12,500 psi...

even cartridges like 9mm run 28,000 - 33,400 psi ...

Plastic is a pretty generic thing / and there are some plastics that might work ...but high end plastics may not be cheaper than brass. Shotshell hulls that we typically use these days ( that I reload 20 or more times )are still very thin ...and even the most durable of them, like the Remington STS or Nitro hulls, will not hold up to those kinds of pressures. I know pressure in a .45 acp are lower ....but not low enough ....

beex215 · May 23, 2011, 07:52 PM

i wondered why they dont make sharp nose 9mm. should combine that with plastic cases too. that would sell

eqlzr · May 23, 2011, 10:12 PM

Seems like I remember hearing something like that once, but they didn't use any case at all. Something called muzzle loaders, I think.

dreamweaver · May 23, 2011, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Seems like I remember hearing something like that once, but they didn't use any case at all. Something called muzzle loaders, I think.

very well done, newbie! you're obviously not new to guns.
i'll be looking forward to hearing more from you

seriously, there are plastic bullets, plastic cases and complete plastic rounds. all are low pressure practice rounds at this time.
i'm sure they would hurt like hell if you were shot with one, but unless shot in the eye, or at extremely close range, they wouldn't be disabling.
jmho

Onward Allusion · May 24, 2011, 12:11 AM

Used some 38 specials with plastic cases back in the late 80's. It worked as intended. The cases were quite a bit thicker than its brass brethren. They were waddcutters if I recall.

FrankenMauser · May 24, 2011, 02:11 AM

I used to have a small collection of various .38 Special plastic cases. Over time, they became very brittle, though, and crumbled with the slightest touch. I threw them all away, but there were several brands, several different loads (printed on the plastic), and a few different shot shells.

I still have a couple plastic 9mm Luger and .44 Special cases laying around, ...somewhere...

natman · May 24, 2011, 03:53 AM

Here's an article on the USAC plastic 38 Specials. The case had to be so thick that it required a custom heeled bullet.

http://www.oldammo.com/february10.htm
(scroll down)

**Mike Irwin** · May 24, 2011, 07:22 AM

Yep, those are the ones I was thinking of, Natman.

Sheaffer's Sporting Goods in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, had them on display for awhile while I was going to college in town.

FrankenMauser · May 24, 2011, 02:59 PM

It's interesting that the author in that link assumes the colors other-than-white were rare, since he never saw one "in the wild". At one point in time, my "collection" had at least 50 of the plastic .38 cases... ...mostly black (not shot shells, though most of the shot shells were black, as well). There were even a few of the red and (light) blue cases in the mix, and orange under a different brand.

Perhaps I just happened to clean up after the only shooter in the Western U.S., that had some of the other colors...

I also find it interesting, that those photos don't show anything, and the author never says anything about the printing that was present on the cases I had (I distinctly remember the USAC head stamp on the white, black, and red cases). The plastic body had been printed in black, for white, red, and blue cases; and had been printed in white, for black cases. All it was, was the type of bullet. I don't recall if they used abbreviations or full words, but it would have been something like, "158 GR SWC" or "158 GR RN".

But, as I said before; they became very brittle over time. The cases (and pieces) were slowly thrown away, until the last 15-20 were just aluminum case heads floating around in a bag of plastic chips. ...Which was unceremoniously tossed into the trash can.

Plastic cases can be acceptable for single-use loads, at a (seemingly) low price, in low pressure cartridges. But they don't hold up well, over time; and most types are not reloadable.

The plastic-cased .223 stuff is another example of the issues plastics present. They had to mold the case neck around the bullet (with an extra-deep cannelure), to keep the neck thin enough to chamber. The case was then charged from the rear, and had the case head "snapped" into place. That's why many shooters that used it had quite a few case heads pull off; leaving the plastic body in the chamber of their rifle. Poor reliability is not an attribute most people look for in ammunition. ....And chambering one of the plastic cases in a hot rifle is a whole 'nother problem.

Sulaco2 · May 24, 2011, 03:46 PM

I have several boxes of the loaded USAC plastic .38 shells, boxes of FMJ wad cutters bullets for reloading the plastic hulls, along with literature and samples they handed out at plastics manufactures conventions in the 80s. Company was based out of Tacoma WA, but a current web search does not even show the address existing anymore. My dad who was in the whole sale plastic biz brought me back several boxes of six that they were handing out as samples!! Those were the days! I also have different styles of bullet, all the heel type the company made as well as the hand re-loading tools to go with. Thinking of doing another Combat Handguns article about them some time…

Fired several boxes of the loaded rounds out of a mod S&W 36 and as I recall they were a handful! Combination of substantial powder load and heavy 158 grain slug.

chris in va · May 24, 2011, 03:56 PM

I saw a couple hundred littered around at the last Knob Creek trip. Red 223 hulls everywhere.

MrAcheson · May 24, 2011, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Currently, the US military is experimenting with plastic rifle cartridges in the LSAT project. It's reportedly going quite well.

Reports vary because development seems to have stalled. Also, the LSAT ammo is case-telescoped and not backwards compatible with existing weapons.

seeker_two · May 24, 2011, 05:21 PM

I could see them used in low-pressure revolver rounds as mentioned before...but I can't see them working in semi-autos due to headspacing and feeding issues....

May 23, 2011, 01:04 PM	#1
leadcounsel Junior member Join Date: September 8, 2005 Location: Tacoma, WA Posts: 2,119	Why not plastic handgun shells, like shotgun shells? With the expense of brass, why not mini-shotgun style shells for handgun rounds?

May 23, 2011, 01:06 PM	#2
BarryLee Senior Member Join Date: July 29, 2010 Location: The ATL (OTP) Posts: 3,965	Not an expert, but wouldn't the pressure be too high? __________________ A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it ... gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman

May 23, 2011, 01:08 PM	#3
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 14, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,642	It's been tried with some of the lower pressure shells like .38 special. There was a company back in the 1980s when I was in college that offered them. Supposedly you didn't need any tools to reload them. You did need the special heeled bullets, though. You couldn't use regular bullets. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

May 23, 2011, 01:10 PM	#4
BarryLee Senior Member Join Date: July 29, 2010 Location: The ATL (OTP) Posts: 3,965	Oops, maybe I misread your OP. Are you suggesting the use of something like buck shot as opposed to a bullet? If so aren’t there options already? __________________ A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it ... gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman

May 23, 2011, 01:17 PM	#5
aarondhgraham Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2009 Location: Stillwater, OKlahoma Posts: 8,638	I knew I wasn't crazy,,, I was certain that I once had a plastic .38 special cartridge,,, It was something I found in a box of old junk I got at an auction. Glad to know that I'm not as senile as I thought I was. Aarond __________________ Never ever give an enemy the advantage of a verbal threat. Caje: The coward dies a thousand times, the brave only once. Kirby: That's about all it takes, ain't it? Aarond is good,,, Aarond is wise,,, Always trust Aarond! (most of the time)

May 23, 2011, 01:30 PM	#6
Casimer Senior Member Join Date: April 23, 2007 Location: Pennsylvania, USA Posts: 1,918	There have also been plastic cases intended for plastic training bullets (e.g. Speer - http://www.speer-bullets.com/product...g_bullets.aspx )

May 23, 2011, 01:41 PM	#7
TheGoldenState Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2010 Posts: 1,191	I've had some plastics before as well. The marbles are stood good up there

May 23, 2011, 02:16 PM	#8
Willie Lowman Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2009 Location: Uh-Hi-O Posts: 3,006	A company made plastic cased .223 FMJ ammo a while back. The owner of my LGS showed me one of these rounds in his "oddities" collection. I don't think they are produced any more. http://www.smallarmsreview.com/pdf/Natecammo.pdf __________________ "9mm has a very long history of being a pointy little bullet moving quickly" --Sevens

May 23, 2011, 02:38 PM	#9
brickeyee Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2004 Posts: 3,351	Shotgun pressures are lower than many handgun rounds, allowing use of plastic for cases. As the peak chamber pressures go up it puts a real premium on using metal.

May 23, 2011, 02:46 PM	#10
Mello2u Senior Member Join Date: February 21, 2009 Location: Georgia Posts: 1,424	I love this forum. The esoteric information available here is wonderful.

May 23, 2011, 06:07 PM	#11
kozak6 Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2005 Location: AZ Posts: 3,113	Currently, the US military is experimenting with plastic rifle cartridges in the LSAT project. It's reportedly going quite well.

May 23, 2011, 07:13 PM	#12
lamarw Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2010 Location: Lake Martin, AL Posts: 3,311	Not a good idea for us reloaders. I am not sure they could be reloaded or not, but I would bet they would not hold up for too many if any reloadings.

May 23, 2011, 07:43 PM	#13
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	As a reloader ....that picked up a few thousand cases off the floor of my local range on Sunday ...I am strictly opposed to using plastic cases in handgun loads ... but looking at my reloading tables for my shotshells ...12ga, 20ga, 28ga and .410's ....the pressures are mostly between 10,000 and 12,500 psi... even cartridges like 9mm run 28,000 - 33,400 psi ... Plastic is a pretty generic thing / and there are some plastics that might work ...but high end plastics may not be cheaper than brass. Shotshell hulls that we typically use these days ( that I reload 20 or more times )are still very thin ...and even the most durable of them, like the Remington STS or Nitro hulls, will not hold up to those kinds of pressures. I know pressure in a .45 acp are lower ....but not low enough ....

May 23, 2011, 07:52 PM	#14
beex215 Senior Member Join Date: October 10, 2010 Posts: 317	i wondered why they dont make sharp nose 9mm. should combine that with plastic cases too. that would sell

May 23, 2011, 10:12 PM	#15
eqlzr Junior Member Join Date: January 28, 2011 Posts: 14	Seems like I remember hearing something like that once, but they didn't use any case at all. Something called muzzle loaders, I think.

May 24, 2011, 12:11 AM	#17
Onward Allusion Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2009 Location: Back in a Non-Free State Posts: 3,133	Used some 38 specials with plastic cases back in the late 80's. It worked as intended. The cases were quite a bit thicker than its brass brethren. They were waddcutters if I recall. __________________ Simple as ABC . . . Always Be Carrying

May 24, 2011, 02:11 AM	#18
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 26, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,775	I used to have a small collection of various .38 Special plastic cases. Over time, they became very brittle, though, and crumbled with the slightest touch. I threw them all away, but there were several brands, several different loads (printed on the plastic), and a few different shot shells. I still have a couple plastic 9mm Luger and .44 Special cases laying around, ...somewhere... __________________ -Unwilling Range Officer -Unwilling Match Designer -NRL22/PRS22/PRO -Something about broccoli and carrots

May 24, 2011, 03:53 AM	#19
natman Senior Member Join Date: June 25, 2008 Posts: 2,681	Here's an article on the USAC plastic 38 Specials. The case had to be so thick that it required a custom heeled bullet. http://www.oldammo.com/february10.htm (scroll down)

May 24, 2011, 07:22 AM	#20
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 14, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,642	Yep, those are the ones I was thinking of, Natman. Sheaffer's Sporting Goods in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, had them on display for awhile while I was going to college in town. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

May 24, 2011, 02:59 PM	#21
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 26, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,775	It's interesting that the author in that link assumes the colors other-than-white were rare, since he never saw one "in the wild". At one point in time, my "collection" had at least 50 of the plastic .38 cases... ...mostly black (not shot shells, though most of the shot shells were black, as well). There were even a few of the red and (light) blue cases in the mix, and orange under a different brand. Perhaps I just happened to clean up after the only shooter in the Western U.S., that had some of the other colors... I also find it interesting, that those photos don't show anything, and the author never says anything about the printing that was present on the cases I had (I distinctly remember the USAC head stamp on the white, black, and red cases). The plastic body had been printed in black, for white, red, and blue cases; and had been printed in white, for black cases. All it was, was the type of bullet. I don't recall if they used abbreviations or full words, but it would have been something like, "158 GR SWC" or "158 GR RN". But, as I said before; they became very brittle over time. The cases (and pieces) were slowly thrown away, until the last 15-20 were just aluminum case heads floating around in a bag of plastic chips. ...Which was unceremoniously tossed into the trash can. Plastic cases can be acceptable for single-use loads, at a (seemingly) low price, in low pressure cartridges. But they don't hold up well, over time; and most types are not reloadable. The plastic-cased .223 stuff is another example of the issues plastics present. They had to mold the case neck around the bullet (with an extra-deep cannelure), to keep the neck thin enough to chamber. The case was then charged from the rear, and had the case head "snapped" into place. That's why many shooters that used it had quite a few case heads pull off; leaving the plastic body in the chamber of their rifle. Poor reliability is not an attribute most people look for in ammunition. ....And chambering one of the plastic cases in a hot rifle is a whole 'nother problem. __________________ -Unwilling Range Officer -Unwilling Match Designer -NRL22/PRS22/PRO -Something about broccoli and carrots

May 24, 2011, 03:46 PM	#22
Sulaco2 Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2005 Location: Seattle Posts: 1,247	More than just plastic rounds I have several boxes of the loaded USAC plastic .38 shells, boxes of FMJ wad cutters bullets for reloading the plastic hulls, along with literature and samples they handed out at plastics manufactures conventions in the 80s. Company was based out of Tacoma WA, but a current web search does not even show the address existing anymore. My dad who was in the whole sale plastic biz brought me back several boxes of six that they were handing out as samples!! Those were the days! I also have different styles of bullet, all the heel type the company made as well as the hand re-loading tools to go with. Thinking of doing another Combat Handguns article about them some time… Fired several boxes of the loaded rounds out of a mod S&W 36 and as I recall they were a handful! Combination of substantial powder load and heavy 158 grain slug.

May 24, 2011, 03:56 PM	#23
chris in va Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2004 Location: Louisville KY Posts: 13,806	I saw a couple hundred littered around at the last Knob Creek trip. Red 223 hulls everywhere.

May 24, 2011, 05:21 PM	#25
seeker_two Senior Member Join Date: August 31, 2002 Location: Deep in the Heart of the Lone Star State (TX) Posts: 2,169	I could see them used in low-pressure revolver rounds as mentioned before...but I can't see them working in semi-autos due to headspacing and feeding issues.... __________________ Proud member of Gun Culture 2.0......