Winchester Brass - Primers not coming out

Sefner · June 26, 2011, 08:33 PM

Hey guys,

I have a bunch of 45 Winchester brass that is not depriming... it's popping the pin out of the die and the ol' hammer and nail method doesn't seem to be working either.

The headstamp:

WINCHESTER 45 AUTO

It's not the NT stuff (I have some of that and that's not a problem). It has more of a bold typeface than other Winchester brass with the same headstamp that deprimes just fine. I don't know the box it came in.

I don't see any kind of sealant around the primer. Anyone else have any experience with this?

keebo52 · June 26, 2011, 08:42 PM

I've never run seen Winchester ammo with berdan primers but that could be the problem. Look inside the brass and check the flash hole. If it has two small holes, it's berdan primed and not easily reloadable. Boxer primed brass has a single flash hole.

Sefner · June 26, 2011, 08:54 PM

Quote:

I've never run seen Winchester ammo with berdan primers but that could be the problem. Look inside the brass and check the flash hole. If it has two small holes, it's berdan primed and not easily reloadable. Boxer primed brass has a single flash hole.

Nope, they are boxer.

dahermit · June 26, 2011, 09:15 PM

What brand of dies are you using? I remember some RCBS dies with which you had to be very careful that you lined up the de-capping pin with the flash hole...the de-capping pin rod and nut had enough play when loose that one could end up with the de-capping pin hitting the web of the case instead of going through the hole.
Other than that, look into the empty case to see if the flash hole punched off center. That was a common occurrence years ago.

Sefner · June 26, 2011, 09:23 PM

Flash hole looks totally normal.

As an update, some other Winchester brass did the same thing. In one case (pun intended) I put so much pressure that the primer actually bulged but didn't come out... thinking of sending these off to Winchester to be examined...

warningshot · June 27, 2011, 01:59 AM

LEE makes both larger & small primer punch pins. You supply the hammer.

Sefner · June 27, 2011, 10:05 AM

I'm using the correct tool. I've punched out some of these primers before and like I said, one bulged but didn't come out. The nail was reaching the primer when I was beating it. What I'm more worried about is that I go through all this effort to rescue a bunch of brass but then the pocket is messed up or something.

slohand45 · June 27, 2011, 11:09 AM

Pre-pardon my rookie re-loader status,but...I just went through the same thing with some Win. and even some Federal 38 special 9mm. & 45 acp.
It turns out that some of the generic packaged Win. and Federal that is touted as mil\spec and or NATO may indeed be just that.Can you say crimped primer pocket? Most of this stuff came from Cabellas and the internet and I gleefully shot it up for cheap but re-loading time almost had me ready to start looking for a Dr.Phils for re-loaders counseling site.It turns out that no amount of cussing,stomping or pounding would substitute for the cutting tool that I had trouble finding.(thanks Dr.Phil but I'm no longer having horrible nightmares of being bury'd alive in a gigantic bucket of WWII Lake City surplus shell casings with "Crimped Primers".)

mikld · June 27, 2011, 11:46 AM

"I'm using the correct tool. I've punched out some of these primers before and like I said, one bulged but didn't come out. The nail was reaching the primer when I was beating it."

Sounds to me like the depriming pin isn't going far enough. I've had primers so tight sometimes the pin would push through the cup. How far does the pin extend beyond the base of the case?

Scimmia · June 27, 2011, 12:07 PM

I'm with slohand45, the only time I've seen a primer buldge and not pop out easy was with crimped primers. Post a pic, maybe?

slohand45 · June 27, 2011, 01:23 PM

In my playful mood maybe I was confusing.I'm talking about a tool that looks like a minature hole saw.You mount it in a chuck handle,and push it into the primer pocket and give it about a quarter turn.That weakens the crimp enough that you can push the primer out.After you have decrimped you usually have to recut the primer pockets to smooth the burr off.I think the tool came from Sinclair.The second operation is of course done with a standard pocket reamer.
I also only meant to imply that crimped primers can be pretty subtle and sneaky if you're not expecting or looking for them.If you had told me two months ago that my Ranger NATO rated 9mm or Federal Classic 45 might have crimped primers,I probably would have laughed at you.I suspect that the stuff was produced on a NATO contract and then trickled back in for domestic consumption.Where else would you get 158 grn.LRN 38 spl. with crimped primers?

**Unclenick** · June 27, 2011, 05:38 PM

The image below shows both ring and staked crimping. Ring crimping is typical of U.S. manufacture. See if you've got that slightly recessed ring?

oneoldsap · June 27, 2011, 06:48 PM

I've never had any difficulty depriming LC Brass , hell if you don't deprime first , how do you remove the Crimp ? Weird !

DaleA · June 27, 2011, 07:32 PM

Never heard of, or seen, an HXP crimp before and now I've got a picture of one. This place is a font of information. Thanks Unclenick.

Sefner · June 28, 2011, 09:02 AM

Good info Unclenick. Unfortunately that doesn't seem to be the case here. Comparing it to some other brass that deprimed just fine it doesn't seem to be much different.

Slohand, I don't want a tool just to get some of this brass deprimed. It's maybe only 50 - 75 pieces. But the crimped primer makes sense.

mikld, I deprimed a bunch of other brass just fine during the same session, so the pin is just fine.

I'm going with crimped primers here, but it's unfortunate that there are no identifying markings to see this. The primer and what I can see of the pocket look totally normal.

Thanks for the replys!

**Unclenick** · June 28, 2011, 09:22 AM

Sefner,

Another thought: The headstamp doesn't have "NT" on it somewhere, does it? I ask because the DDNP primers in lead-free loads tend to back out hard, which is why they normally have enlarged flash holes. Gluing them in might also be done to prevent that. In that case, heating them to 250-300°F (not warm enough to anneal them) might loosen it.

Last question, if you take the depth probe that sticks out of the end of the beam on your caliper when you open it, and measure from the case mouth to the case head, how does that compare to a case that's behaving normally? I ask because the sound sort of like your decapping pin is too short for the job. I've got decappers that have poked holes clean through a heavily crimped primer before.

DaleA,

HXP is Greek. The surplus was imported and is being sold by the CMP.

Sefner · June 28, 2011, 03:03 PM

Hey Unclenick,

It does not have NT anywhere on the headstamp. I'm familiar with the NT stamp, even have some that just got cleaned.

The decapping pin is fine, it was decapping brass as usual before I ran into one of these problem cases. I ended up having to reset it a few times cuz it was popping out of place.

I'm just gonna throw them out I think, it's not that many so I'm not gonna spend money on a new tool to take the primers out of them. I have plenty of brass, still!

bfoosh006 · July 1, 2011, 12:38 AM

Interesting... Sefner, and everyone else.. you guys might want to check this similiar problem in Winchester '08 5.56 brass ( currently posted at ar15.com )http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=42&t=346371...

How old is this ammo ? Factory primed ?

Miata Mike · July 1, 2011, 06:27 AM

I just had a Federal .45acp primer the other day that just bulged and would not come out while reloading on my Lee Pro 1000 press. Not good. I have deprimed thousands of .45acp with the same Lee dies without ever a hitch on my Lee turret press.

Primer hole is centered and looks fine except for the bulging primer.

June 26, 2011, 08:33 PM	#1
Sefner Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2009 Location: Michigan Posts: 769	Winchester Brass - Primers not coming out Hey guys, I have a bunch of 45 Winchester brass that is not depriming... it's popping the pin out of the die and the ol' hammer and nail method doesn't seem to be working either. The headstamp: WINCHESTER 45 AUTO It's not the NT stuff (I have some of that and that's not a problem). It has more of a bold typeface than other Winchester brass with the same headstamp that deprimes just fine. I don't know the box it came in. I don't see any kind of sealant around the primer. Anyone else have any experience with this?

June 26, 2011, 08:42 PM	#2
keebo52 Senior Member Join Date: January 31, 2005 Posts: 244	Berdan primers?? I've never run seen Winchester ammo with berdan primers but that could be the problem. Look inside the brass and check the flash hole. If it has two small holes, it's berdan primed and not easily reloadable. Boxer primed brass has a single flash hole.

June 27, 2011, 01:59 AM	#6
warningshot Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2009 Posts: 995	Try the correct tool. LEE makes both larger & small primer punch pins. You supply the hammer.

June 28, 2011, 09:22 AM	#16
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,747	Sefner, Another thought: The headstamp doesn't have "NT" on it somewhere, does it? I ask because the DDNP primers in lead-free loads tend to back out hard, which is why they normally have enlarged flash holes. Gluing them in might also be done to prevent that. In that case, heating them to 250-300°F (not warm enough to anneal them) might loosen it. Last question, if you take the depth probe that sticks out of the end of the beam on your caliper when you open it, and measure from the case mouth to the case head, how does that compare to a case that's behaving normally? I ask because the sound sort of like your decapping pin is too short for the job. I've got decappers that have poked holes clean through a heavily crimped primer before. DaleA, HXP is Greek. The surplus was imported and is being sold by the CMP. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

June 26, 2011, 09:15 PM	#4
dahermit Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 2006 Location: South Central Michigan...near Posts: 6,501	What brand of dies are you using? I remember some RCBS dies with which you had to be very careful that you lined up the de-capping pin with the flash hole...the de-capping pin rod and nut had enough play when loose that one could end up with the de-capping pin hitting the web of the case instead of going through the hole. Other than that, look into the empty case to see if the flash hole punched off center. That was a common occurrence years ago.

June 26, 2011, 09:23 PM	#5
Sefner Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2009 Location: Michigan Posts: 769	Flash hole looks totally normal. As an update, some other Winchester brass did the same thing. In one case (pun intended) I put so much pressure that the primer actually bulged but didn't come out... thinking of sending these off to Winchester to be examined...

June 27, 2011, 10:05 AM	#7
Sefner Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2009 Location: Michigan Posts: 769	I'm using the correct tool. I've punched out some of these primers before and like I said, one bulged but didn't come out. The nail was reaching the primer when I was beating it. What I'm more worried about is that I go through all this effort to rescue a bunch of brass but then the pocket is messed up or something.

June 27, 2011, 11:09 AM	#8
slohand45 Member Join Date: June 19, 2010 Location: MO./KAN. a smidgen AZ. Posts: 22	Pre-pardon my rookie re-loader status,but...I just went through the same thing with some Win. and even some Federal 38 special 9mm. & 45 acp. It turns out that some of the generic packaged Win. and Federal that is touted as mil\spec and or NATO may indeed be just that.Can you say crimped primer pocket? Most of this stuff came from Cabellas and the internet and I gleefully shot it up for cheap but re-loading time almost had me ready to start looking for a Dr.Phils for re-loaders counseling site.It turns out that no amount of cussing,stomping or pounding would substitute for the cutting tool that I had trouble finding.(thanks Dr.Phil but I'm no longer having horrible nightmares of being bury'd alive in a gigantic bucket of WWII Lake City surplus shell casings with "Crimped Primers".)

June 27, 2011, 11:46 AM	#9
mikld Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2009 Location: Southern Oregon! Posts: 2,891	"I'm using the correct tool. I've punched out some of these primers before and like I said, one bulged but didn't come out. The nail was reaching the primer when I was beating it." Sounds to me like the depriming pin isn't going far enough. I've had primers so tight sometimes the pin would push through the cup. How far does the pin extend beyond the base of the case?

June 27, 2011, 12:07 PM	#10
Scimmia Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2011 Location: Eastern IA Posts: 428	I'm with slohand45, the only time I've seen a primer buldge and not pop out easy was with crimped primers. Post a pic, maybe?

June 27, 2011, 01:23 PM	#11
slohand45 Member Join Date: June 19, 2010 Location: MO./KAN. a smidgen AZ. Posts: 22	In my playful mood maybe I was confusing.I'm talking about a tool that looks like a minature hole saw.You mount it in a chuck handle,and push it into the primer pocket and give it about a quarter turn.That weakens the crimp enough that you can push the primer out.After you have decrimped you usually have to recut the primer pockets to smooth the burr off.I think the tool came from Sinclair.The second operation is of course done with a standard pocket reamer. I also only meant to imply that crimped primers can be pretty subtle and sneaky if you're not expecting or looking for them.If you had told me two months ago that my Ranger NATO rated 9mm or Federal Classic 45 might have crimped primers,I probably would have laughed at you.I suspect that the stuff was produced on a NATO contract and then trickled back in for domestic consumption.Where else would you get 158 grn.LRN 38 spl. with crimped primers?

June 27, 2011, 06:48 PM	#13
oneoldsap Senior Member Join Date: September 16, 2009 Location: I live in the foot of the Green Mountains of Vermont Posts: 1,602	I've never had any difficulty depriming LC Brass , hell if you don't deprime first , how do you remove the Crimp ? Weird !

June 27, 2011, 07:32 PM	#14
DaleA Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2002 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 5,384	Never heard of, or seen, an HXP crimp before and now I've got a picture of one. This place is a font of information. Thanks Unclenick.

June 28, 2011, 09:02 AM	#15
Sefner Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2009 Location: Michigan Posts: 769	Good info Unclenick. Unfortunately that doesn't seem to be the case here. Comparing it to some other brass that deprimed just fine it doesn't seem to be much different. Slohand, I don't want a tool just to get some of this brass deprimed. It's maybe only 50 - 75 pieces. But the crimped primer makes sense. mikld, I deprimed a bunch of other brass just fine during the same session, so the pin is just fine. I'm going with crimped primers here, but it's unfortunate that there are no identifying markings to see this. The primer and what I can see of the pocket look totally normal. Thanks for the replys!

June 28, 2011, 03:03 PM	#17
Sefner Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2009 Location: Michigan Posts: 769	Hey Unclenick, It does not have NT anywhere on the headstamp. I'm familiar with the NT stamp, even have some that just got cleaned. The decapping pin is fine, it was decapping brass as usual before I ran into one of these problem cases. I ended up having to reset it a few times cuz it was popping out of place. I'm just gonna throw them out I think, it's not that many so I'm not gonna spend money on a new tool to take the primers out of them. I have plenty of brass, still!

July 1, 2011, 12:38 AM	#18
bfoosh006 Senior Member Join Date: February 17, 2009 Posts: 1,100	Interesting... Sefner, and everyone else.. you guys might want to check this similiar problem in Winchester '08 5.56 brass ( currently posted at ar15.com )http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=42&t=346371... How old is this ammo ? Factory primed ?

July 1, 2011, 06:27 AM	#19
Miata Mike Senior Member Join Date: May 23, 2010 Location: North East WI Posts: 418	I just had a Federal .45acp primer the other day that just bulged and would not come out while reloading on my Lee Pro 1000 press. Not good. I have deprimed thousands of .45acp with the same Lee dies without ever a hitch on my Lee turret press. Primer hole is centered and looks fine except for the bulging primer.