Shooting Involving Open Carry Proponent

[Bartholomew Roberts]

The Atlanta Journal Constitution has video of a shooting outside a convenience store in Atlanta. Apparently a man who was open carrying felt slighted in some degree after he held a door open for another man and didn't get a "Thank you." he waited for the man to exit the store and followed him - saying something to him. In response, the man turned and shot him. His assailant was off-camera; but you can see the man being shot.

It seems there are several good discussions that arise from this video.

1. It seems to me that this video has a lot to teach about conflict avoidance. The shooting victim made several bad choices in conflict deescalation, leading to him getting shot. He could have improved a great deal on his conflict avoidance techniques.

2. From the shooter's perspective, a man openly carrying a pistol waits for you outside a store and then confronts you in a convenience store parking lot at night. We are only hearing the open carry side of the story here; but I can understand how this might appear threatening to someone, especially if there are a few phrases or sentences that the shooting victim neglected to tell the news crew.

3. Once the open carry guy has been shot, he is in a gunfight where someone is using lethal force against him, yet he never attempts to draw his gun and is slow to realize he has been shot and seek cover. Looking at the video made me think that the shooting victim doesn't have the necessary mindset to be open carrying a pistol; but at the same time, given his actions prior to the shooting, shooting back could have conceivably made his situation even worse.

[Brian Pfleuger]

People who are inclined to create conflict should not be armed. Period.

You mention "deescalation" and I get your meaning but the truth is, there was no conflict to "deescalate". Not getting a "Thank You" for holding the door for someone is not a conflict. The OC guy not only didn't deescalate, he actively and intentionally created a conflict.

He who is armed has a greater responsibility to avoid conflict than he who is not armed.

In regards to the shooter, it's hard to imagine how the actually shooting could be justified. You're not allowed to shoot people for acting like idiots, whether they're armed or not, with a direct threat.

[TailGator]

How do you pick a good guy here? One guy creates an unnecessary confrontation over a perceived snub while open carrying, and the other guy shoots with no overt threat. I have little use for either type of belligerence. Sounds like bully vs bully.

[MLeake]

If we don't know what the OC guy said to the shooter, we can't say there was no overt threat. OP indicated we only have the OC guys' word for what was said.

A guy with a gun who says something threatening has means and opportunity; if he convinces a reasonable person that he has motive, then he has a big problem.

[Spats McGee]

Whether or not there was an overt threat to the shooter, it seems to me like the OCer really didn't think this through. Waiting outside an Atlanta convenience store after dark to confront someone while OCing. That's just asking for trouble.

[C0untZer0]

These incidents really bug me..

I am wondering if unstable people are predisposed to wanting to carry handguns.

This jackass Jimmy Rodgers is a nutcase. He was LOOKING for trouble, I mean "waiting" for someone to demand that they say thank you - while you're packing a gun? Pursuing someone and instigating a verbal confrontation with someone while you're armed? And honestly, I kind of sense that same weird Bernard Goetz mentality in some members who post here on this forum.

There are fear-based people who are riddled with anxiety, anger and frustration and firearms and fantasy scenarios are how they medicate their anxiety.

I just cringe when things like this happen because it certainly gives "ammo" to people who oppose OC or CC laws.

Jimmy Rodgers is a D-bag.

[aarondhgraham]

Waiting outside an Atlanta convenience store after dark to confront someone while OCing. That's just asking for trouble.

If I were confronted in any way by a person openly carrying a handgun,,,
I would feel more threatened at the moment than in a normal confrontation.

I mean any time I can see a weapon,,,
And it being carried by someone confronting me,,,
I'm fairly certain I could convince a DA or a Jury that I felt an imminent threat.

Maybe not,,,
But it goes a long way towards justification.

Many years ago in a land far far away,,,
I had an old man with a cane get in my face and verbally accost me.

He never threatened me by saying "I'm going to hit you with my cane.",,,
But he was waving it around, so I hit him as hard as I could,,,
A storeowner called the cops and I was taken into custody.

I was released an hour later because I was able to convince the watch commander that the man's waving of the cane in my face constituted an immediate threat that I had a right to respond to.

I can't comment on this particular scenario,,,
Because I don't have the details.

But I tend to believe that if you are armed,,,
You have a particular charge to be very polite in public.

JMHO

Aarond

[C0untZer0]

My gut reaction is that there should be a law to take guns away from D-bags like Jimmy Rodgers.

Something like - if you instigate a public disturbance, disorderly conduct or something like that, they pull your OC & CCW.

I know anti-gunners will be thinking something similar...

Here is a video of a guy who walks up on an officer's traffic stop. I don't know any police officers who want ANYONE to walk up or drive up on their traffic stop - let alone a jackass with a gun who thinks it's his job to "hold everybody accountable".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BwQQSo9YX4

These OC incidents are bad...

I started a thread a while ago about OC, and I've totally changed my mond about it. Years ago when I was in Arizona and a few guys walked into a coffee shop with sixguns it was no big deal. But, I've seen more evidence of jags doing really stupid things and OC is just way more complicated today than it was a few decades ago in just Arizona.

[output]

That is just an all-around bad situation to be in. He held a door for the man, and did not get a thank you…it was not the end of the world. He could have easily lost his life because of his ego.

As mentioned we don’t know any of the dialogue at all. I think this video shows just how important it is to avoid conflict altogether.

[MLeake]

C0untZer0, while I understand your point, the thing you have to be careful about when you wish for such things is this: As soon as such a law gets passed, anti's in office will try to pull your OC/CCW for "disorderly conduct" which could include political protests, and other things that the law's drafters probably never intended.

I prefer fewer laws, in general, and like those laws that do pass to be very clear and limited in scope.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Geez - I was just at a class with Tom Givens, a superb instructor - I remember a comment by him. He quotes George Carlin - with something like this:

You know how stupid the average person is? Remember that half the people are stupider.

[Wildalaska]

I am wondering if unstable people are predisposed to wanting to carry handguns.

Absolutely. I think any honest mental health care professional or critical thinker would tell you so, Freudian or not.

It's biological in part, psychological in another, social in a third.

Thats why, under most circumstances, I look askance at some folks who open carry or at least feel my hinkymeter stir.

WildscreechallyouwantthatslifeAlaska ™©2002-2011

[youngunz4life]

to those who haven't watched and/or had trouble watching: use OP's link and then click on story 4th from the bottom

I have a serious problem with the way Jimmy Rogers handled himself here. He was the victim and one open carrying. 1st off, you can hold a door but if the man doesn't say thank you then so-be-it. not only did he get verbal with the man, he waited outside to verbally confront him again in a less than nice manner!? That is ridiculous especially since he is wearing a gun. He didn't deserve to be shot, but he made some errors here + his kids and wife almost lost a father & husband after a tim mcgraw concert. To further add, what is this guy a psychic or something?! There could be multiple reasons why the shooter didn't say thank you. Jimmy, you're not that important - don't do someone a favor if you are going to demand recognition.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Knowing something about this - there is no evidence that gun ownership in general predicts any mental condition. There is some evidence that the serious and well trained gun owner may be lower in aggressive ideation.

Can a general population of folks generate nuts - sure. Will some be gun owners - sure. Will nuts act inappropriately with guns - sure. Will they act inappropriately with cars - sure - road rage, for example.

Are OC zealots more likely to be aggressive? That's a hypothesis and we don't know. Might there be a subset of those who want to wear an obvious gun to project an aggressive and macho demeanor - it's an hypothesis also.

Make a nice master's thesis for a psych, criminology, sociology, CJ type.

[Wildalaska]

it's an hypothesis also.

One borne out by biology, sociology and psychology though

This Board would be a wonderful subset of gun owners to analyze. We could set up an anonymous questionaire to analyze aggressive tendencies as well as views on open carry...hmmmm



WilditcouldbeaseminalpieceofresearchAlaska ™©2002-2011

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer

...That's a hypothesis and we don't know. Might there be a subset of those who want to wear an obvious gun to project an aggressive and macho demeanor - it's an hypothesis also.

Make a nice master's thesis for a psych, criminology, sociology, CJ type.

Maybe some day you'd be in a position to encourage a promising graduate student in that direction.

[Tom Servo]

Imagine I'm the guy in the leather jacket.

It's late at night. I see a shambly-looking guy with a gun hanging off his hip in a crappy holster. He's probably got alcohol on his breath (coming back from a concert), and he's being belligerent. This isn't some paladin of 2nd Amendment activism exercising his rights; this is a dangerous weirdo.

Personally, I'd have stayed in the store and contacted the police.

Jimmy Rogers is an idiot, and he's fortunate to be alive. I'll get heat for this, but many of the people I've known to open carry do so to get some kind of reaction. If Mr. Rogers wasn't accosting people at convenience stores, he'd likely be out there harassing police officers.

There's a certain sort of aggressiveness there that just doesn't belong in the heart of someone carrying a deadly weapon.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Well, I think Jimmy Rodgers should give some thought to not carrying a firearm. I see two big mental preparation issues here:

1. Guy says something to me as I am going in a store and then waits outside for me and begins to follow me? That's fairly predator like behavior, visible weapon or not. I don't think Jimmy Rodgers intended to be predatory; but he seemed to be blissfully unaware how others might perceive those actions or how the gun on his hip might magnify that.

It seems to me that if you are going to open carry, you've got to maintain a very high level of alertness, even higher than a CHL, since you not only must be aware of potential threats; but you must also be aware of how the gun may be causing people to perceive and react to you differently.

2. Mindset. Jimmy Rodgers was carrying a gun, presumably for self-defense, and got into a real, live gunfight. And then he seemed to forget he even had a gun once that happened. It may have worked out better for him in this particular circumstance; but he could have easily been dead with even a mildly more aggressive assailant.

If anything, it seems to me that open carry is more demanding on mindset and awareness issues than concealed carry.

[440SAW]

It is/was really not necessary to OC or get into a verbal conflict.
One person's opinion, CCW is far better because you don't stir it up and you do have surprise on your side, as proven by this little situation.
OC is fine when walking in the presence of bears, wolves and such; or if you are a LEO and can manage your personal interactions effectively.
That said, I am not for controlling it, just saying CCW is a better stance.

[secret_agent_man]

Jimmy Rodgers had the means, a gun, known to the shooter.

Rodgers had the opportunity, obviously.

Depending on what Rodgers said, he may have had the motivation to shoot the shooter. You know, for dissin' him. That Rodgers followed the shooter implies an ulterior motive besides having a conversation.

Consider if the shooter had been female how it might play out.
Lone armed and concealed female goes into store, guy with gun waits her out, then starts rambling nonsense and follows her. Female fires in self defense. No reasonable jury going to convict on those facts.

Starting to sound more like a justifiable shoot?

[Mello2u]

The video shows:
* That the shooter had a vehicle between the shooting victim and himself;
* the shooting victim with his hands in his pockets;
* that the victim made no furtive movement which could be reasonably interpreted as a threat.

Should the shooter be found he may be charged with:

§ 16-5-21. Aggravated assault

(a) A person commits the offense of aggravated assault when he or she assaults:

(1) With intent to murder, to rape, or to rob;

(2) With a deadly weapon or with any object, device, or instrument which, when used offensively against a person, is likely to or actually does result in serious bodily injury; ...

Penalty: imprisonment for 3 to 20 years.

I think this is an opportunity for people to learn that you don't mess with strangers.

[Tom Servo]

Should the shooter be found he may be charged with Aggravated assault

He might be charged, but there's good chance he can convince a jury that he felt Rogers represented a threat to his life. Given the Rogers was armed, confrontational, and aggressive, that might not be a very hard sell at all.

It may have worked out better for him in this particular circumstance; but he could have easily been dead with even a mildly more aggressive assailant.

If Rogers had returned fire, resulting in injury or death, he could have ended up facing serious charges. Under Georgia law, it would have been very difficult for Rogers to plead self defense when he was the one instigating the confrontation.

he seemed to forget he even had a gun once that happened

I'm willing to guess Mr. Rogers has little or no training in firearms. That thing on his hip is a talisman or a symbol, not a weapon. He doesn't think of it that way, and it came back to bite him. He's not alone in that.

[markj]

he waited for the man to exit the store and followed him - saying something to him

2 wrongs dont make a right, both men were wrong here, jimmy shoulda let it go and left wit hhis family, the other guy shot him cause he was confronted by a guy wit ha gun. Hmmm and cops should not be allowed to pull when confronting open carry folks? LOL

Now I must wonder if gent number 2 would have shot gent number 1 if he had his gun concealed. I bet he didnt have it on his hip at that concert.

I open carry when hunting never when I go into town. I belive this would happen so it goes under cover cause there are idiots out there. Some are armed....

[Roland Thunder]

Originally Posted by youngunz4life

To further add, what is this guy a psychic or something?!

Don't you mean psycho. I doubt he was a psychic

[Brian Pfleuger]

The fact that the shooter ran and is hiding is proof enough in my world that this wasn't a defensive shooting. Defenders call for help. Criminals hide from the police.