Case Gauge

[BRAVO1NINER]

Is a case length gauge the same dimensions as the chamber...I'm having a bitch of a problem with my .223 brass. I size and decap and then after cleaning the goo off the brass I drop into a barrel...some drop in and out, others stick...If I do the same with the case gauge, it is fine....

WTH is going on????

BRAVO1NINER

[4runnerman]

Are you full length sizing?. Cleaning the Goo off the brass..What Goo

[geno22]

Case length is very important. If you load one to long it will bottom out in chamber causing brass to tighten up against the bullet, it will shoot different than one that are correct. You can since this when you close the bolt, it will be hard to close.

[Incognito]

Originally Posted by BRAVO1NINER

Is a case length gauge the same dimensions as the chamber

No, it's not. A case gauge is designed to SAMMI specs. for what a case should look like after it's full-length resized. Your chamber will be slightly bigger than the internal dimensions of the case gauge.

My guess is you're not resizing them properly. You may need to screw the die in a little more or apply more pressure to the handle. It's the very last bit of travel that bumps the shoulder of the case back. The shoulder of the case is what determines headspace.

[Shoney]

From the SAAMI Glossary

CASE GAGE
A fixture used to inspect cartridge case dimensions (i.e. length, diameters, thickness, etc.) to insure conformance to established tolerances.

CASE LENGTH (easily and accurately measured with calipers)
The dimensions from face of the head to the mouth.

CHAMBER
1. In a rifle, shotgun or pistol, the rearmost part of the barrel that has been formed to accept a specific cartridge or shell when inserted
2. In a revolver, the holes in the cylinder that have been formed to accept a cartridge

[F. Guffey]

Some claim they use the case gage as a chamber gage on another forum, and they expect to be taken seriously.

The L. E. Wilson case gage is make to measure two dimensions, first is the length from the head of the case to the shoulder, second is the dimension/measurement from the shoulder to the head of the case, in theory the case does not touch the case gage except at the shoulder called datum? The contact in the die that contacts the case shoulder has a radius. the datum for the 223 is .330

The gage that checks cases for chambering is a chamber gage, I have not figured how a chamber gage can be made for a rifle that was cut with a different chamber reamer, but for the Barnum and Bailey world there is a market for them.

Two measurements, from the shoulder back and the shoulder forward, the case can be the correct length but have a short neck, the case can have a correct length but have a long case body, and the one measurement that is impossibly to get the mind around is adding head space between the head of the case and shoulder, THEN add the added length to the length of the case, again I have a M1917 Eddystone with .016 thousands head space, I add .014 thousands to the length of the case meaning the neck stays the same length.. As to you having trouble chambering full length sized case, there are times when the press wins then there are times the case whips the press, I do not know about your cases ability to resist sizing, I refuse to punish my presses, when I size a case that will not chamber I get out the tools and measure, most are home made or gages that are designed for other purposes, my chamber gages cut with my reamers with the same case head protrusion is as good as it gets, for me.

F. Guffey

[Jim243]

I had a problem with cases getting stuck in an AR and not working properly. Finally bought the gauge and resolved my problems.

Here is a case that has not had the shoulder bumped back far enought. Turn your die diown till the head is flat with the gauge and all will be well.





Jim

[dmazur]

The comments about a case gauge not being a chamber are correct -

http://www.lewilson.com/casegage.html

Included in the description is the phrase, "Note: Does not measure body diameters. This gage is intended to be used with fired cases to determine a basis for full length sizing and trimming."

Full instructions for the use of this gauge are on the LE Wilson site, I believe.

So, just because it drops into the gauge does not mean it will fit any given rifle's chamber.

[BRAVO1NINER]

Thanks....need to spend more time on this issue...I'm using Lee .223 dies and
just recently changed presses and now I have this problem...

BRAVO1NINER

[F. Guffey]

Bravoniner smiths and reloaders insist on answering every question with a new tools, I use tappers and holes with old tools, I can not count the times I have heard something like "If I had a bladed micrometer" or "If I had the ultimate tool that cost $90.00 dollars....."

I use a straight edge and feeler gage with the L. E. Wilson case gage, I could use a set up table because it is easier, as I said there are other forms that claim they use the case gage as a chamber gage, I gave up on that one when they claimed they could make a chamber cast to check head space, I am still waiting for the answer on that one, I may be the only one able to do that, I can not explain why I would ever try, the results is brief. the information is not accurate before after because cerosafe is not stable, time is a factor.

When using the L.E. Wilson case gage lay a straight edge across the top of the case head and measure the gap between the gage and straight edge, if the case head is below the top of the gage lay a straight edge across the case head and below the straight edge and measure between the straight edge and head of the case, the results will be in thousands.

And I use datums, a smith/reloader can not have enough datums, it helps to know how to use them, most stick them on a dial caliper.

F. Guffey

[F. Guffey]

and I use the straight edge to determine if the press won or the the case whipped the press, work hardened cases resist being sized, for forget spring back, if the case resist being sized the press refuses to size it, and there are tools that can be used to measure 'press refusal to size' also.

F. Guffey

[HJ857]

Bravo1Niner, interesting discussion and one that I'll bet is only vaguely useful. I'm going to assume that you're a reasonably experienced reloader and have set up the sizing die correctly.

So with that, read this thread, it's old but there's good info in there, particularly posts by George.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=748

In my experience chambering issues is almost never due to the shoulders not being set back enough, it's almost always with the base of the case and mostly deformation around the rim area. I use range brass exclusively so I have no idea of my brass' history, other than it's free, so I expect issues with the brass.

I have three ARs and use the Wilson gauge, if a case or round passes the Wilson gauge, then it will always chamber in my rifles, if it does not pass the gauge, then the round will never chamber in my rifles. That's just my experience and I know I'm likely annoying Mr. Guffey even further by saying that...

Lastly, since you're on a new press - if the Wilson gauge has worked for you in the past and now doesn't - then look to the press set up. If you have a new/different shell holder, I'd look at that as a potential source for sizing errors.

However, if the press is ok, then possibly your rifle chamber is too tight to allow use of the Wilson gauge, Google this gauge for information, it gives you an option for checking brass for a tight chamber, JPCG-223. or go here.

http://www.jprifles.com/buy.php?item=JPCG-223

[F. Guffey]

"In my experience chambering issues is almost never due to the shoulders not being set back enough, it's almost always with the base of the case and mostly deformation around the rim"

HJ857

It does not matter to me what you choose to do, you can keep purchasing shell holder until you find one that works or you can learn to measure the deck height if the shell holder, my shell holders measure .125 thousands from the deck of the shell holder to the top of the shell holder, or you can grind the shell holder and or die, neither method is necessary, again I size cases for short chambers from .012 thousands shorter than a minimum length case to .016 thousands longer than a minimum length case, that is 28 different length that include short chamber, small base minimum length to field reject length with one shell holder and one versatile full length sizer die, again, all my shell holders have a deck height of .125, that includes 50 year old + Herters, Pacific, Hollywood gun shop, Lyman and the newer shell holders made by RCBS.

As to shoulder or case head and deformation, again, the bottom .125 of the case head can not be sized, the case head can be measured, the tough part is knowing why and how.

And if you can chamber fired cases in your L.E. Wilson case gage it is not as tight as you think it is, if the gage wi9ll not chamber a fired case consider getting your money back, ny chamber gages will not allow a fired case to chamber unless the cases being tested were fired in a very good chamber.

F. Guffey

[HJ857]

I have no doubt that you have vast amounts of knowledge and experience Mr. Guffey, but somehow we have a disconnect. You're answering questions I didn't ask and solving problems I don't have.

[F. Guffey]

"However, if the press is ok, then possibly your rifle chamber is too tight to allow use of the Wilson gauge"

If you were listening and not a dunce I said the Wilson case gage can be used to measure case length from the shoulder to the head of the case in thousands, and I said the Wilson case gage is big enough to allow a fired case to chamber, There is no such thing as a chamber that is too small, there are reloaders that own Wilson gages that do not know how to use them.

"if the press is ok"

If you can not determine how to determine the ability of a press to resist flexing how are you going to determine if the press is 'OK' If the deck height of a shell holder is .125, what difference does it make which shell holder is used? It makes a difference to me when I form cases for short chambers, because the Lee is the most loose shell holder when used to form cases I gain another .003 thousands when going beyond -.012 shorter than a minimum length case. It has been suggested reloaders should not mix brands when sizing, something like color coordinated? I could have a Herters press, C&H adapter, Lyman shell holder and a RCBS DIE, I would know the deck height of the shell holder and the ability of the die to size AND all of my dies are adjustable down to .000 as in minimum length and .012 thousands shorter 'for short chambers'.

One more time, the brass could be whipping the press. with the cases that chamber the press could be winning but when the press is adjusted to full length size the shell holder contacts the bottom of the die, the shell holder can not be crushed, the die can not get crushed, when sizing the die can be turned down an additional three turns and destroyed the press a, the three additional turns could destroy the press but will do absolute nothing for reducing the length of the case.

My favorite tool is the companion tool to the press, the feeler gage, cost? From $6.00 to $11.00, If I have a problem with sizing a case the first thing I reach for is the feeler gage, when I want to determine head space of a chamber, I reach for the feeler gage, when I want a transfer or a standard, same thing.

F. Guffey

[HJ857]

I know what the Wilson gauge is for, I simply use it in a different role. If it didn't work, I'd use a different tool, such as the JP gauge. Clearly you have an issue with that sort of usage, and so be it.

Beyond that, I have no idea why you think I'm disagreeing with you.

[F. Guffey]

"that sort of usage"? If I want a gage I make it, you choose to ignore 'dmazur' and 'incognito', in my opinion you were making it up as you went until you got to the point where were sure something you said would annoy me, if what you said about the gage was not correct and was in conflict with what had been posted, Why doesn't it bother you?

Shoney made a contribution that took time and effort, I agree with most of the information, he did not make it up, he researched the information, the part where it leads someone to believe the case gage checks the diameter of the case, in my opinion, is not correct.

To check a L.E. Wilson case gage,, I use lead blocks for bumping, banging and hammering to prevent marring, dents and creases, take a lead block and set it on a solid surface, case mouth end down, place a case in the gage with a round flat face punch against the case head drive the case into the gage, without effort the case will drop below the top surface of the gage. When removed the shoulder of the case will have concaved shoulder that will mirror the seating surface in the die, again it is a datum with a round surface, for those that can measure protrusion before and after the difference in the two measurements will indicate the distance case advanced into the gage without making contact with with the gage walls, typing slower, the cone has varying diameters, if the Wilson gage measured the diameter of the case the case would be sized when forced into the gage.

F. Guffey

[HJ857]

In your first response in this thread you made a disparaging comment about information posted in a different forum. Since I use the Wilson gauge as a pseudo chamber gauge in the same way you do not like, I made a glib remark.

Just for the sake of clarity. I bought the Wilson gauge with the intent of using it as it was intended, however I also have a Hornady headspace gauge set, and in the end I still preferred the Hornady system over the Wilson.

Years ago I was getting a number of rounds that would not go in to battery I came to realize that the Hornady is great for setting up a sizing die/measuring shoulder set back, yet it does nothing to check the dimensional integrity at the base of a piece of brass. As you say, sometimes the brass beats the press. This is where the Wilson gauge came in to play, because the brass that beats the press or is deformed will bind up in the Wilson gauge. I'm sure it would bind in any gauge, I just happen to have the Wilson so that's all I can speak to.

I'm not going to keep screwing down my sizing die and setting the shoulders back to some ridiculous amount. If the shoulders measure correct after sizing but do not pass the Wilson gauge, then it gets thrown out. Simple as that.

In exactly the same way, after simple testing it was clear that if a loaded round passed the Wilson gauge, it will always chamber, fire and extract from my rifles.

It may be pure luck that the Wilson I have works in my rifles, I don't care why. I'm not making precision rifle ammo and have never said so. I expect my ammo to be consistent and utterly reliable. I finished a batch of 3000 rounds a month ago, and I expect them to work just as well as the thousands of rounds that preceded them. The gauge has helped me achieve that requirement.

I have to admit that this thread has made me think again about spending the 30 bucks for the JP gauge which is cut to minimum SAAMI spec, but then why mess with what's working?

BTW, dmazur has posted similar info in the past regarding the Wilson's oversized diameter which was very valuable at the time.

So with that, good day sir.

[BRAVO1NINER]

Gentlemen,

I merely asked a question...I have a problem I'm trying to fix...I have always used the info from you and, in the past, it has corrected problems...The question was, "Is a case gauge the same as a chamber". All my resized brass passes the test in the gauge, but right now many will not chamber...

I will take all your thoughts and eventually I will correct the problem...
But please, be kind....We are all in this together...Reloading is a great hobby or your worst nightmare...Let's all work together.

BRAVO1NINER

[dlb435]

A case gauge will check your brass to see if it is within a certain range. Read the instructions for the case gauge and you will see how it works. I don't think you're reading it correctly. The brass should drop into the case gauge AND be between the min and max cut lines.
I'm guessing that you are using an auto-loader and not all of your resized brass is cambering properly.
This is a common problem. First, are your dies and shell holder the same brand? This can make a differance. Sometimes just getting all of the tools from the same maker will do the trick.
Some times you need to go to Small Base dies to get the rounds to chamber.
If your gun will chamber new ammo fine but gives you trouble with your reloads, something is not right.

[dmazur]

BRAVO1NINER -

I have had a similar problem, a few years ago. IIRC, it involved a Ruger #1 in .30-06 and a SA Garand with a "match chamber". Brass fired in the Ruger #1 would not fit the case gauge, even though the gauge is made deliberately oversized (in dimensions other than case head to shoulder datum) to permit measuring fired cases. After resizing, it would fit, but then it would not chamber in the Garand. It did chamber in the Ruger #1.

I had the Ruger #1 rebarreled before I could determine whether it was excessive headspace or an oversized chamber. Measurements of the case showed the diameter just above the head was not being resized enough to suit the Garand.

Cases fired in the Garand resized correctly.

Perhaps a small base die would have made the brass fit, but if I continued to "mix up" the brass use between the two rifles, I would eventually experience case head separation due to overworking the brass, I presumed.

With a Pac-Nor barrel on the Ruger #1, it is now close enough to my other .30-06's that I don't have to segregate brass. I realize segregation is a tool, and I do use it. I just didn't want to have to do it.

So, with all the variables involved in resizing brass (including mfgrs variations in case wall thickness, lube variation, chamber dimensions, and how many times the case has been reloaded), it is quite possible to have cases that don't size the way you want them to. You can even have trouble getting them to behave with the same exact setup, due to increased "spring back" as the case work-hardens.

Also, in describing the dimensions of a case gauge, I am referring to the Wilson type, which is quite common. All case gauges are not Wilson type gauges.

I have read of reloaders making their own case gauges with a suitable barrel section and a chamber reamer. These are definitely more of a chamber substitute than the Wilson gauge, but it is hard to say how useful they are for a particular rifle.

Back to your problem. If you are having some cases drop in to the chamber, and others don't, that indicates that you are experiencing variation in resizing. There is some difference happening. Try to figure out what it is.

Are the oversized ones all the same headstamp? Were they all fired the same number of times? Is your lube application method consistent? Are you holding the press handle down the same amount of time?

I'm still learning about this stuff, so I'm not trying to position myself as an expert. I fought the same stuff just a few years ago..

[F. Guffey]

"So, with all the variables involved in resizing brass (including mfgrs variations in case wall thickness, lube variation, chamber dimensions, and how many times the case has been reloaded), it is quite possible to have cases that don't size the way you want them to. You can even have trouble getting them to behave with the same exact setup, due to increased "spring back" as the case work-hardens.
with all the variables involved in resizing brass (including mfgrs variations in case wall thickness, lube variation, chamber dimensions, and how many times the case has been reloaded), it is quite possible to have cases that don't size the way you want them to. You can even have trouble getting them to behave with the same exact setup, due to increased "spring back" as the case work-hardens"



Sounds great except you are outnumbered, most on this form can fire a case 5 times and size with a neck sizer die and then start over by full length sizing,even though the case has been fired 5 times, when I fire a new case it becomes a once fired case that has been hammered with 50,000+ psi, then there is their perception of spring back as though the case wads up like paper and recovers some of it's shape after being thrown on the floor, desk or trash can, when my cases become work hardened they refuse to be sized meaning my cases that I have toughened by hammering whip the press and refused to be sized, when that happens the case wins and my press does all the spring back (recover it's pressly shape), BUT! even then there is a way to measured and compare the case's ability to resist sizing with the perfect case.



Perfect case: The perfect case is new, unfired, unsized after it left the manufactures, after that, resistance to being sized increases.



Sorting brass, if brass is not sorted how is one to keep up with the number of times a case has been fired when compared to the other 99 cases that were purchased in one lot, and I believe it is a good ideal to save a few cases for reference as in determining what effect firing a case 100 times has on the weight of the case, and to ponder? Does the case stretch? Or does the brass flow? and or does the brass stretch and flow?



Skid marks, I have never found skid marks on a case that has been fired multiple times.

F. Guffey

[Slamfire]

So, with all the variables involved in resizing brass (including mfgrs variations in case wall thickness, lube variation, chamber dimensions, and how many times the case has been reloaded), it is quite possible to have cases that don't size the way you want them to. You can even have trouble getting them to behave with the same exact setup, due to increased "spring back" as the case work-hardens.

I agree. And given a large enough chamber, like military chamber, not even a small base die will always bring the brass down to a non interference fit with a standard chamber.

I have been told that commercial reloaders do not use sizing dies, but rather huge hydralic equipment that roll cases between heavy plates and positively swage the case head to original dimensions.

The issue that the Original Poster is having, he is sizing his brass, with a Lee standard sizing die , I will bet that not all of the brass was fired in the gun of issue, and his sizing die will not reduce the case dimensions below that of the rifle chamber.

You can buy case gages that are of correct chamber dimensions, as long as the gage was cut with the same reamer that cut your chamber. I have three of those, one 30-06, one 308 and one .223.

You can see in the attached pictures that fired cases will drop in the LE Wilson gage but not in the reamer cut gage.



I purchased these gages so I could determine if my sized cases would had an interference fit with the chambers of my gas guns.

Frank White of Compass Lake will make reamer cut gages, that is where I got my .223 gage. It is with the same reamer that Frank used on my .223 Space gun barrel.

For the original poster I would recommend a small base die. I use small base dies in every caliber I can find them. Currently I am using them were perfect satisfaction for my gas guns.

[dmazur]

I was not trying to start an argument, but simply review what seems to be an accepted list of things that can affect resizing.

I now get well over 15 reloadings with a bolt-action and a falling-block, and I am careful to resize just enough for the action to close easily.

I don't try to get that many for the Garand. It is hard on brass, and full-length resizing 0.004" every time is going to work the brass. At least, that's what I've read. Not as bad as resizing it 0.008" or more, as some are probably doing with over-length chambers and resizing back to SAAMI minimum every time.

I had trouble with lube, initially. What I thought was a die adjustment problem went away with proper lubrication.

I've also had trouble with mixed headstamps. Older Federal "range brass" didn't resize the same way as the new Winchester brass. So I'm more cautious about mixed headstamps now, and just about use Winchester exclusively for the Garand. Would other brass work? Sure, but I have a ton of Winchester and the headstamp lets me segregate it easily.

And, as I related, I had a rifle in the .30-06 stable that had a chamber problem. Either excessive headspace or over-diameter, I never determined which. All I know is the problems went away with a Pac-Nor barrel. After I got a set of headspace gauges, I was able to confirm that all 4 rifles are within a couple thousandths of each other. Not identical, but close.

The suggestion to the OP was to review the conditions. Why are some cases dropping into the chamber after resizing and others aren't? It may not be just die adjustments. There is a lot more that can mess up the results...

[BRAVO1NINER]

I purchased a JP chamber gauge....This should help with the brass issue, also, purchased a Redding Small Base Die for sizing the .223 brass before loading...Funny thing, my brass would not fit in the "unnamed barrel", but fit in my SBR barrel...Different tolerances, I guess. Anyway, I'm now prepped to continue loading...Thanks for all the help...

BRAVO1NINER