.38 special/blue dot question

[Fullthrottle]

Ok, I loaded up some .38 special with Blue Dot, after shooting I noticed a fair amount of unburned powder. Is this just to be expected from Blue Dot in this loading or is something wrong here?

I used the Lee Modern reloading manual:
158gr Plated FN (Rainier , they say load using Lead data)
5.8gr of Blue Dot
CCI small pistol primers
OAL 1.420

They all punched paper just fine and recoil was acceptable for sure. Never had this issue with IMR SR4756 or Power Pistol or IMR 800X.

[WESHOOT2]

Most highly recommend Power Pistol (or HS6 or Universal or 3N37 or AA5 or ANYTHING) over Blue Dot in anything other than specific 10mm loads.

It can, and may, and sometimes does, act erractic.

[JT-AR-MG42]

Blue Dot would not be a good choice at .38 Special pressure. I shot a few cans of AL-8 in hot .38 Specials with similar results. Accurate enough, but too much unburned powder would get under the extractor.

However, Blue Dot has always been a high performance 124 gr. jacketed 9mm powder. I shot it for years. There can be fairly substantial variations in different lots though. Best to work out of kegs.

Years ago, my friend called Hercules and got them to run pressure on a really nice clean burning 44-40 load with a 200gr. lead slug and Blue Dot with heavy crimps that my buddy and I had been shooting for a while. Checked out OK. They have since quit listing it I believe.

But I have noticed Alliant - or whoever owns them now - have eased off on listed uses for both Blue Dot and one of my favorites, Herco.

JT

[Slamfire]

I do not like Blue Dot. Only works in magnum applications with jacketed bullets. With cast bullets, it leads something awful.

In non magnum applications the extreme spreads are just huge. Compare the Blue Dot Extreme velocity spreads with that of Bullseye in 38 Spl.

ES's this high tell me that Blue Dot is not appropriate for this cartridge, regardless of what reloading manuals or what gunwriters may say.

4" S&W M10-5	38 Special		
			
			
125 Valiant BBRNFP 4.0 grs Bullseye Mixed cases WSP 			
9-Apr-06	T = 59 °F	 Elevation at least 4" low	
			
Ave Vel =	863.4	 	
Std Dev =	30		
ES	70.78		
High	907.5		
Low	836.7		
N =	6		
			
			
			
			
125 Valiant BBRNFP 4.5 grs Bullseye Mixed cases WSP 			
9-Apr-06	T = 64 °F	 Elevation at least 4" low	
			
Ave Vel =	945.6	 	
Std Dev =	27.28		
ES	75.21		
High	995.2		
Low	920		
N =	6		
			
			
125 Valiant BBRNFP 6.5 grs Blue Dot Mixed cases WSP 			
9-Apr-06	T = 64 °F	 Elevation Point of aim	
			
Ave Vel =	734	 	
Std Dev =	63.53		
ES	260		
High	829.6		
Low	569.5		
N =	18		
			
125 Valiant BBRNFP 7.0  grs Blue Dot Mixed cases WSP 			
9-Apr-06	T = 64 °F	 Elevation Point of aim	
			
Ave Vel =	788.2	 	
Std Dev =	63.3		
ES	241.3		
High	926.7		
Low	685.3		
N =	12		
			
			
125 Valiant BBRNFP 7.5 grs Blue Dot Mixed cases WSP 			
22-Apr-06	T = 68 °F	 Elevation low 	

Ave Vel =	867.3	 	
Std Dev =	53.06		
ES	235.6		
High	959.7		
Low	724.1		
N =	25		
			
			
125 Valiant BBRNFP 8.0 grs Blue Dot Mixed cases WSP 			
22-Apr-06	T = 68 °F	 Elevation all over the place 	

Ave Vel =	990.2	 	
Std Dev =	56.55		
ES	236.1		
High	1093		
Low	857.5		
N =	25

[Fullthrottle]

Thanks for the input all. I was wondering mostly the unburned powder issue.

Slamfire, you bring up a real good point for sure. I never gave it a thought, but my groups were very poor on paper. I assumed it was my fault because I was shoot ing it at 25yards (normally I only go 10 to 15yards with pistol). After looking back on it, I didn't get that bad of grouping with Blue Dot out of my XD40 shooting the very same day, also didn't get any unburned powder out of the .40.

Also (probably doesn't matter), I was shooting the .38 from my Taurus model 66.

[CherokeeT]

I use WST, 231 and Herco (for heavier loads) in 38 Special. Bluedot I use in special applications, not 38 Spl.

[Scorch]

For target or plinker loads in 38 Special, use Bullseye, Unique, Win 231, TiteGroup, or similar powders. Blue Dot is a magnum powder, that does best at or near maximum loads, using heavy jacketed bullets and a firm crimp. I started using Blue Dot almost 30 years ago, and it was a pretty good choice back then, but it would never have been a good choice for plinker loads. There are better, more modern powders available now, but Blue Dot is still a good choice for loading 44 Mag.

[zippy13]

Thanks for the input all. I was wondering mostly the unburned powder issue.

Unburned powder... What's your barrel length and primer?

The old Hercules and early Alliant guides recommended Fed 100 primers in their .38 spcl. loads; however, the current guide doesn't list any .38 spcl loads with Blue Dot, and only one +P load.

Of the old school "Hercules" powders, Blue Dot is the slowest burning of the "Dot" shotgun powers and not appropriate for the .38 spcl. Bullseye or Red Dot will give you similar performance for about half the cost. Keep your Blue Dot for your magnum loads.

[AlaskaMike]

What you're seeing is not unburned powder--what you're seeing is the partially burned color flakes in the powder. Those color flakes are just colored paper.

Mike

[bluetopper]

Reloading 101.......use the appropriate powder for the caliber. Blue Dot and the 38 Special are a complete mismatch.

You'll have great results using a very fast burning powder such as Bullseye, Clays, AA#2, Red Dot, etc,......

[Unclenick]

Blue Dot is much too slow. QuickLOAD shows your load reaching a peak pressure of just 7200 psi, much too low for a slow powder to burn either consistently or thoroughly. It shows only 63% of the powder is burning up in the barrel. The bullet is just getting away down the tube faster than the powder can burn to make gas fast enough to keep up filling the space left behind the bullet. The ballistic efficiency (the percent energy in the powder that is converted to kinetic energy in the bullet) in a 6" revolver is an abysmal 16.4% or less than half what it would be using an appropriate powder for the task.

2.7 grains of Red Dot shows giving you the same velocity, burning 100% in the 6" barrel and netting 34.4% ballistic efficiency at a peak pressure closer to 10,000 psi. I think you'll find that much more satisfactory. 2.6 grains of Hodgdon Clays will give 12,000 psi and 38% BE, and would be cleaner than Red Dot, but it isn't really suitable for loads much warmer than this or the pressure gets too high. 3.1 grains is Hodgdon's maximum. It's strictly for target velocities.

In your shoes I would consider getting some Hodgdon Universal. Use about 3.2 grains to start. That will match your current velocity. It's BE will be about 30% and the pressure a little lower than optimum, but it is more versatile and will let you make somewhat warmer loads if you chose to. It is similar to Unique in the manuals, but burns cleaner and meters more consistently. You can take it up to 4.5 grains with your bullet, according to Hodgdon's data, which is for a 7.7" barrel, with which it gets close to 1000 fps. By then it is getting near SAAMI maximum pressure for standard loads (17,000 psi) and at 35% BE and all burning up in the barrel. That's pretty good.

[Fullthrottle]

Zippy13, The Taurus 66 has a 6" barrel, the primer used is CCI small pistol

Parasite, I thought I would try some Blue Dot that I had around, being that I have loads for it in multiple manuals....wasn't impreassed with the results though.

Unclenick, Wow.......that was some info! Good info at that! Thank you very much. I am now wondering if I should plop down the cash for that program.

[BARRANQUILLERO]

Hi all, this is my first post, so I arrive here a bit later, but with much interest in this subject. Because regulation I should carry .38 Spl. ammo in my gun (S&W M19-3 4" barrel .357 Mag.) and since my only other option is 158 RNL factory load (750 fps) my choice was reload Sierra 110 gr. JHC in .38 Spl. cases, CCI 550 primers and 11,7 gr. of Blue Dot. No flatened primers. Velocity average 1330 fps. Since this is a high pressure load (24000 psi I think) there is not unburned powder. Hodgdon suggest 11,2 gr. of HS7 for the same bullet and J. Taffin load a 125 JHP over 11 gr. of HS7. Same burning rate than BD. Not recomended for ligth revolvers.

[AlaskaMike]

Your load definitely sounds better than factory 158 gr. RN .38 loads, but I think I'd probably still go with a heavier bullet, maybe 125 - 140 grain JHP. The Speer 130 grain (or is it 135?) bullet designed for the .38 special might not be good because it's designed to open up at slow .38 velocities and might open up to quickly with the loads you're able to use in your model 19. With heavy .38 loads that you intend to use in a .357 magnum, there's always the caution to make sure you never allow those .38s to find their way into a .38 revolver.

If you can get 2400, that would be a better powder for your situation I think than Blue Dot. I don't think HS-7 is available anymore.

[ryalred]

I've used Blue Dot in my S&W .357 6" barrel when shooting .38 spl rounds, but I didn't care for it, it works much better in .357 loads.

[deputy fife]

I use Bullseye for .38/.357 and 9mm. Just do be careful not to double charge, as the powder doesn't hardly fill up the .38 or .357 cases(when in doubt, dump it out). I shoot the .38/.357 through rifles and pistols with no problems. I have recently grown fond of pistol caliber rifles. I haven't played around with changing pistol powder yet, I just assume at 25 yds that the reasons for a bad group has to deal with "adjusting the nut behind the trigger" as the local gunsmith likes to say.

[BARRANQUILLERO]

I pick the 110 over a heavier bullet to gain in velocity, 1300 fps is not possible with a 125/140 gr bullet in .38 Spl. cases. I already try 2400 powder, do not remember the charge, some 14 gr. probably, but let unburned powder in the 4 incher. Unique does not work either since elevate the pressure and not the velocity. With the 158 gr. SWCLHP a very old (1974) Hornady manual suggest 5,7 gr. of Bullseye, I did it with W231 (Speer bullet) and get 990 fps in the 4 " barrel, but the recoil is stiffer than with the 110 gr. I feel ligther bullets with slow powder at high velocities give less recoil than heavier bullets with faster powders.

[AlaskaMike]

You're absolutely right that you can get higher velocity with the lighter bullet, but it will be at the expense of penetration. If that's not an issue for you, then the lighter bullet will also get you the benefit of lower recoil as you mention, and in defensive situations that can mean a lot as it allows quicker followup shots.

It sounds like you've given quite a bit of thought and testing into this, and come up with good results. About the only other caution I could give is that Blue Dot can be very temperature sensitive, especially at the upper end of it's useful pressure range, which is where you're at. It would be good to do your load development in the warmer season of your location. I've had very erratic results in my S&W model 28, 4" barrel using 158 grain cast lead SWCs. My experience differs from yours in that I was using .357 magnum brass and a charge weight of 10.2 grains. That combination gave me about 1170 fps in that gun, but going to 10.4 grains resulted in about 1240 fps and slightly sticky extraction. In my case pressures clearly spiked significantly, and I live in Alaska.

Mike