Why is RRA (AR 15) so bad?

briang2ad · August 20, 2010, 07:26 AM

When I post anything about RRA, folks trash them - even the lowers. I know that they are pretty far LEFT on the chart, but they advertise 1" groups with Black Hills ammo. So... why so bad? When Milspec is 2" at 100, why is RRA trash?

Also, while chrome lined bores seem to be the minimum standard for an AR, and RRA generally doesn't put them on sub $1000 guns, why is the chrome lined thing all the rage? 5.56 is all non-corrosive. Some say NON-chromed is more accurate.

Hoskins · August 20, 2010, 08:15 AM

I have no clue!? I have owned one since 2003. My wife bought it for me as a welcome home from Iraq, you survived present!

I love mine. It is a post-ban M4 Entry Tactical. It shoots great, is reliable, & very well built. I have zero complaints with this rifle. If I was allowed to take it to combat instead of my issued M4...I would...just as long as I got to use my issued PEQ-15 (Infrared & laser pointer) & RCO (ACOG).

Pics of weapon as an attachment included. Old pics, will take newer pics & post at a later time. Also, I posted (2) other pics on this thread: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=419222

madcratebuilder · August 20, 2010, 08:16 AM

Why the hate? Brand snobs. I'll bet that 75% of the trash talkers have never handled the fire arm they are trashing. It's an internet farce.

Chrome barrels may last longer are more forgiving on cleaning. Non chrome can be more accurate. I don't have a chrome lined barrel on my Noveske N6, don't want one.

Don't worry about what other people say about your choice of brands. RRA builds a good AR, I've shoot them and know guys that have them. They shoot like all the rest of them. IMHO 70% of all fire arm problems are owner induced.

lmccrock · August 20, 2010, 08:20 AM

"The chart" is a list of features which some consider minimum to buy a rifle for a purpose, that being a fighting rifle. Some of us are not going into combat and do not need those features....or we want better for our purpose. For instance, I want to shoot a wider variety of ammo, so a 1:8" twist is better for me than 1:7" twist.

As for chrome lined - good for hard use environments and/or full auto. I get to clean my guns every day so I do not choose to pay extra for chrome. That said, people I trust say it is hard to see an accuracy difference between chrome and not, if the chrome is well done and the barrel is good.

Lee

Technosavant · August 20, 2010, 09:46 AM

I'm not aware that RRA is bad.

Remember that "the chart" is just a listing of features. Some may matter to you, some may not. It's just a graphical representation of how the various makers stick to the official requirement for the platform insofar as they are able for a civilian rifle.

As for chrome lining, it is slightly less accurate than a non-chromed barrel. It has to do with tolerances; chrome lining ends up with less consistency than an unchromed barrel. However, for a rifle intended for combat accuracy, the drop isn't that much- MOA accuracy is still possible with a chromed barrel. Where it pays off is in ease of cleaning and resistance to corrosion. Even when firing noncorrosive ammo, you still need to clean the thing, and chroming gives a bit more lubricity in the chamber- with the DI design of the AR platform, it can sometimes make the difference between easy extraction of a steel cased round and the case sticking.

If I were to buy a rifle off the rack, RRA would be on the short list of companies I would consider, and they are certainly one of the ones with the more reasonable prices.

thesheepdog · August 20, 2010, 09:56 AM

I am not aware that RRA are bad either, actually the opposite.

jmorris · August 20, 2010, 10:02 AM

Nothing wrong with them.

As far as trashing the lowers some might be surprised to learn that the lower they have was built by the same company. Most all lowers, excluding billet ones, are made by a handful of companies and then the selling "manufacturer" cleans them up, stamps their logo on, and does the finish. here's a list of most of the manufacturer(s). Granted, the finish out and QC processes by the company that stamps their name on the side does vary:

Lewis Machine & Tool

LMT
Lauer
DS Arms
PWA
Eagle
Armalite
Knights Armament
Barrett

Continental Machine Tool

Stag
Rock River Arms
High Standard
Noveske
Century (New)
Global Tactical
CLE
S&W
MGI
Wilson Tactical
Grenadier Precision
Colt

LAR Manufacturing

LAR
Bushmaster
Ameetec
DPMS
CMMG
Double Star
Fulton Armory
Spike's Tactical

JVP

Double Star
LRB

Mega Machine Shop

Mega
GSE
Dalphon
POF
Alexander Arms

Olympic

Olympic
SGW
Tromix
Palmetto
Dalphon
Frankford
Century (Old)

Sun Devil
Sun Devil billet receivers

Superior
Superior Arms
__________________

precision_shooter · August 20, 2010, 10:23 AM

I did have an RRA Elite CAR A4, for quite a few years. NEVER had any problems out of it. Didn't want to sell it, but needed the money at the time. I just placed an order for one of these bad boys http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.c...ategory_id=464 with the Tactical Carry Handle/Rear Sight. Should have it in 30-45 days according to RRA....

Come to think of it, I've never known anyone personally that has owned a Rock River that did not love it.

To Each his own, but I will pay $1,000 for this gun every time over $1,600 for one that is more to the "RIGHT" of "the chart"!!!

JH1 · August 20, 2010, 10:25 AM

I've owned three ar's, a colt competition hbar, a rock river entry tactical, and a dpms lo pro. The rra was the highest quailty of all three, including the colt. Also the most accurate. If I were gonna go buy a new one, rra would be first on the list.

demigod · August 20, 2010, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Why the hate? Brand snobs. I'll bet that 75% of the trash talkers have never handled the fire arm they are trashing. It's an internet farce.

This is usually the argument that people who own Olympic Arms junk use.

The Snobbery argument is childish and silly. There are QUANTIFIABLE differeneces between various gun manufacturors. Not everyone needs a 4150 mil spec barrel or a forged receiver extension, and that's cool. But to say it's snobbery when differences in materials and manufacturing yield stronger and longer lasting parts is idiotic.

As far as RRA... I've never read any complaints about their ARs.

espnazi · August 20, 2010, 11:16 AM

I personally dont own one, but for the money they charge it would not be first on my list. I'd go with a BCM.

As to Oly's being complete junk some may be but mine is not. works 100% with any kind of ammo.

Scorch · August 20, 2010, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Why is RRA (AR 15) so bad?

Just an FYI- among target shooters, RRA is considered one of the top rifles to own. Don't know who told you any different, but they need a reality check. Now among the mall ninjas, maybe things are different . . .

Double Naught Spy · August 20, 2010, 03:39 PM

Quote:

When I post anything about RRA, folks trash them - even the lowers. I know that they are pretty far LEFT on the chart, but they advertise 1" groups with Black Hills ammo. So... why so bad?

Why not ask the people who you say are trashing them in your threads?

Quote:

"The chart" is a list of features which some consider minimum to buy a rifle for a purpose, that being a fighting rifle.

Interesting synopsis, but inaccurate. It makes no statements about minimums for a fighting rifle.

As noted here... http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?k...=5&output=html

Quote:

Without the information in the explanations below, The Chart(s) that appears at the bottom of this page is all but worthless. It is critical, when considering an M4-pattern carbine, to ensure that you understand the list of features and can figure out for yourself if a specific feature is applicable to your intended use. If a sufficient number of the features below and on The Chart are not applicable to your use, then perhaps an M4-pattern carbine is not the right choice for you.

So, what is an M4-pattern carbine? The true M4 is a select-fire military-issue shortened version of the M16 with a collapsible stock, 14.5" barrel, and flat-top upper (with Picatinny rail system) in place of the old A2 carry handle. obviously what we are discussing here are non-NFA firearms which means that they are not select-fire and have a barrel length of at least 16".

The Chart ONLY pertains to M4 pattern carbines, not any other models. While the chart is mostly accurate as to features, manufacturers often change features as needed (such as caused by supply shortages) or for seemingly random reasons and times.

flight954 · August 20, 2010, 04:16 PM

Quote:

When I post anything about RRA, folks trash them - even the lowers. I know that they are pretty far LEFT on the chart, but they advertise 1" groups with Black Hills ammo. So... why so bad? When Milspec is 2" at 100, why is RRA trash?

All RRA products I own are rock solid. I've heard the same about their LAR-8 rifle. I own one and it's an accurate tack driving machine.

cgbills · August 20, 2010, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Interesting synopsis, but inaccurate. It makes no statements about minimums for a fighting rifle.

He did not say that the "Chart" makes statements about minimums for a fighting rifle, rather he said some people consider those features to be minimums for a fighting rifle.

Double Naught Spy · August 20, 2010, 06:26 PM

Quote:

He did not say that the "Chart" makes statements about minimums for a fighting rifle, rather he said some people consider those features to be minimums for a fighting rifle.

I never said he did. The inaccurate part is applying it across the board for a brand such as RRA, which it is not about. I should have included that with the OP as well. My bad. The chart only pertains to M4 pattern guns and no other varieties. So unless you are talking ONLY about M4 pattern guns, "The Chart" should not even be part of the discussion.

For example, The Chart lists RRA, but says nothing about any other models such as their Varmit or Coyote models which have different features than their M4 pattern gun.

rjrivero · August 20, 2010, 07:49 PM

I personally don't like how the safety feels. It sticks out a little bit more than I like (on the kit's that I've used in the past). I prefer the "cheaper" safety under my thumb, but other than that, I have NOTHING bad to say about Rock River.

I have one of their uppers on my 9mm build and it runs fine. (After the break in, that is.)

B. Lahey · August 20, 2010, 08:14 PM

Mine was terribly unreliable even after two service returns, and small parts in the lower broke on a regular basis.

I bought a Colt. The Colt works. Somewhere north of 8,000 rounds without a malfunction at the moment.

Tim R · August 20, 2010, 08:48 PM

B Lahey Wrote:

Quote:

Mine was terribly unreliable even after two service returns, and small parts in the lower broke on a regular basis.

Could you fill me in on which small parts?

Both of my RRA lowers have never seen the inside of a service shop. I did have a White Oak Precision tuned RRA 2 stage trigger quit on me once but it was not RRA's fault.

HorseSoldier · August 20, 2010, 10:04 PM

I've been running a Rock River lower with my LMT upper and haven't had any real drama with it through a whole bunch of range time, three or four civilian shooting schools, and patrol carbine training as an LEO. Can't speak for the rest of the weapon components they make, but I'd happily buy another RRA lower if I were putting together another rifle any time soon.

madcratebuilder · August 21, 2010, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Quote:
Why the hate? Brand snobs. I'll bet that 75% of the trash talkers have never handled the fire arm they are trashing. It's an internet farce.

This is usually the argument that people who own Olympic Arms junk use.

Another internet farce. Several years ago Oly made a line of inexpensive (cheap) AR's, they had problems with these. The product they produce today are as reliable as most the other manufacturers.

Every manufacturer has a service shop, even Noveske.

Hoskins · August 21, 2010, 07:58 AM

Well let's see some facts:

RRA beat out major competion to become the DEA's choice rifle. It wasn't simply just a better salesman that got the deal, the DEA did thier own torture tests & RRA was the winner.

The Larson brothers that own & operate the company worked for Springfield Armory for 10 years & Mark Larson was the head armorer during that time.

Also, the brothers went into partnership with Les Baer to form Les Baaer Custom in which they built custom 1911's.

I'd say that is pretty decent credentials...plus the positive rep from RRA owners is probably the best credential of them all.

Wildalaska · August 21, 2010, 11:09 AM

Quote:

RRA beat out major competion to become the DEA's choice rifle.It wasn't simply just a better salesman that got the deal, the DEA did thier own torture tests & RRA was the winner.

LOL....

Drummer101 · August 21, 2010, 12:00 PM

Correct me if I am wrong,

I read somewhere that the RRA upper and lowers where in such close spec. that some had difficulties when switching out with other manufacturers.

comn-cents · August 21, 2010, 12:09 PM

Love my two never had a problem with them. I guess I just don't care what others think, I'll buy another or two.

August 20, 2010, 07:26 AM	#1
briang2ad Senior Member Join Date: December 19, 2004 Posts: 859	Why is RRA (AR 15) so bad? When I post anything about RRA, folks trash them - even the lowers. I know that they are pretty far LEFT on the chart, but they advertise 1" groups with Black Hills ammo. So... why so bad? When Milspec is 2" at 100, why is RRA trash? Also, while chrome lined bores seem to be the minimum standard for an AR, and RRA generally doesn't put them on sub $1000 guns, why is the chrome lined thing all the rage? 5.56 is all non-corrosive. Some say NON-chromed is more accurate.

August 20, 2010, 08:16 AM	#3
madcratebuilder Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2007 Location: Northern Orygun Posts: 4,923	Why the hate? Brand snobs. I'll bet that 75% of the trash talkers have never handled the fire arm they are trashing. It's an internet farce. Chrome barrels may last longer are more forgiving on cleaning. Non chrome can be more accurate. I don't have a chrome lined barrel on my Noveske N6, don't want one. Don't worry about what other people say about your choice of brands. RRA builds a good AR, I've shoot them and know guys that have them. They shoot like all the rest of them. IMHO 70% of all fire arm problems are owner induced.

August 20, 2010, 08:20 AM	#4
lmccrock Senior Member Join Date: April 23, 2007 Location: Red Rock. TX Posts: 820	"The chart" is a list of features which some consider minimum to buy a rifle for a purpose, that being a fighting rifle. Some of us are not going into combat and do not need those features....or we want better for our purpose. For instance, I want to shoot a wider variety of ammo, so a 1:8" twist is better for me than 1:7" twist. As for chrome lined - good for hard use environments and/or full auto. I get to clean my guns every day so I do not choose to pay extra for chrome. That said, people I trust say it is hard to see an accuracy difference between chrome and not, if the chrome is well done and the barrel is good. Lee

August 20, 2010, 09:46 AM	#5
Technosavant Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 2007 Location: St. Louis, MO area Posts: 4,040	I'm not aware that RRA is bad. Remember that "the chart" is just a listing of features. Some may matter to you, some may not. It's just a graphical representation of how the various makers stick to the official requirement for the platform insofar as they are able for a civilian rifle. As for chrome lining, it is slightly less accurate than a non-chromed barrel. It has to do with tolerances; chrome lining ends up with less consistency than an unchromed barrel. However, for a rifle intended for combat accuracy, the drop isn't that much- MOA accuracy is still possible with a chromed barrel. Where it pays off is in ease of cleaning and resistance to corrosion. Even when firing noncorrosive ammo, you still need to clean the thing, and chroming gives a bit more lubricity in the chamber- with the DI design of the AR platform, it can sometimes make the difference between easy extraction of a steel cased round and the case sticking. If I were to buy a rifle off the rack, RRA would be on the short list of companies I would consider, and they are certainly one of the ones with the more reasonable prices.

August 20, 2010, 09:56 AM	#6
thesheepdog Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2010 Location: DFW Texas Posts: 1,996	I am not aware that RRA are bad either, actually the opposite.

August 20, 2010, 10:02 AM	#7
jmorris Senior Member Join Date: November 22, 2006 Posts: 3,078	Nothing wrong with them. As far as trashing the lowers some might be surprised to learn that the lower they have was built by the same company. Most all lowers, excluding billet ones, are made by a handful of companies and then the selling "manufacturer" cleans them up, stamps their logo on, and does the finish. here's a list of most of the manufacturer(s). Granted, the finish out and QC processes by the company that stamps their name on the side does vary: Lewis Machine & Tool LMT Lauer DS Arms PWA Eagle Armalite Knights Armament Barrett Continental Machine Tool Stag Rock River Arms High Standard Noveske Century (New) Global Tactical CLE S&W MGI Wilson Tactical Grenadier Precision Colt LAR Manufacturing LAR Bushmaster Ameetec DPMS CMMG Double Star Fulton Armory Spike's Tactical JVP Double Star LRB Mega Machine Shop Mega GSE Dalphon POF Alexander Arms Olympic Olympic SGW Tromix Palmetto Dalphon Frankford Century (Old) Sun Devil Sun Devil billet receivers Superior Superior Arms __________________

August 20, 2010, 10:23 AM	#8
precision_shooter Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: DFW, Texas Posts: 2,475	I did have an RRA Elite CAR A4, for quite a few years. NEVER had any problems out of it. Didn't want to sell it, but needed the money at the time. I just placed an order for one of these bad boys http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.c...ategory_id=464 with the Tactical Carry Handle/Rear Sight. Should have it in 30-45 days according to RRA.... Come to think of it, I've never known anyone personally that has owned a Rock River that did not love it. To Each his own, but I will pay $1,000 for this gun every time over $1,600 for one that is more to the "RIGHT" of "the chart"!!!

August 20, 2010, 10:25 AM	#9
JH1 Member Join Date: August 25, 2005 Posts: 91	I've owned three ar's, a colt competition hbar, a rock river entry tactical, and a dpms lo pro. The rra was the highest quailty of all three, including the colt. Also the most accurate. If I were gonna go buy a new one, rra would be first on the list.

August 20, 2010, 11:16 AM	#11
espnazi Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Posts: 256	I personally dont own one, but for the money they charge it would not be first on my list. I'd go with a BCM. As to Oly's being complete junk some may be but mine is not. works 100% with any kind of ammo.

August 20, 2010, 07:49 PM	#17
rjrivero Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2008 Location: NW Ohio Posts: 1,399	I personally don't like how the safety feels. It sticks out a little bit more than I like (on the kit's that I've used in the past). I prefer the "cheaper" safety under my thumb, but other than that, I have NOTHING bad to say about Rock River. I have one of their uppers on my 9mm build and it runs fine. (After the break in, that is.)

August 20, 2010, 08:14 PM	#18
B. Lahey Senior Member Join Date: March 17, 2008 Location: Indiana Posts: 2,857	Mine was terribly unreliable even after two service returns, and small parts in the lower broke on a regular basis. I bought a Colt. The Colt works. Somewhere north of 8,000 rounds without a malfunction at the moment.

August 20, 2010, 10:04 PM	#20
HorseSoldier Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2006 Location: OCONUS 61°13′06″N 149°53′57″W Posts: 2,282	I've been running a Rock River lower with my LMT upper and haven't had any real drama with it through a whole bunch of range time, three or four civilian shooting schools, and patrol carbine training as an LEO. Can't speak for the rest of the weapon components they make, but I'd happily buy another RRA lower if I were putting together another rifle any time soon.

August 21, 2010, 07:58 AM	#22
Hoskins Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2010 Posts: 240	Well let's see some facts: RRA beat out major competion to become the DEA's choice rifle. It wasn't simply just a better salesman that got the deal, the DEA did thier own torture tests & RRA was the winner. The Larson brothers that own & operate the company worked for Springfield Armory for 10 years & Mark Larson was the head armorer during that time. Also, the brothers went into partnership with Les Baer to form Les Baaer Custom in which they built custom 1911's. I'd say that is pretty decent credentials...plus the positive rep from RRA owners is probably the best credential of them all.

August 21, 2010, 12:00 PM	#24
Drummer101 Senior Member Join Date: October 22, 2009 Location: DFW Posts: 943	Correct me if I am wrong, I read somewhere that the RRA upper and lowers where in such close spec. that some had difficulties when switching out with other manufacturers.

August 21, 2010, 12:09 PM	#25
comn-cents Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2008 Location: Pac.N.W. Posts: 1,804	Love my two never had a problem with them. I guess I just don't care what others think, I'll buy another or two.