Old School Gunology Still Valid?

[Eagle0711]

I've been studying older history books. Dark Angel of Texas by author Leon Metz which is about John Wesely Hardin, The Life of John Wesely Hardin, As Written by Himself, and Handgunners Guide By Chic Gaylord. Mr. Hardin is from the late 1800s and Mr. Gaylord the 1950s era. What's important is older techniques as compared to today. Gaylord in the Chap; Close Combat Shooting says that Special Agents for the U.S. Treasury Dept. had to be able draw and fire 5 shots into the kill zone in 3 sec. at 7 yards, or draw and fire a killing shot in no more than one half sec. including reaction time. Mr. Gaylord recomend "dropping the dollar" to practice. Draw and snap before the coin hits the floor from the back of your hand will get you close to one half sec. Mr. Hardin according to his land lady, Annie Williams practiced drawing and firing daily. She said that he was very fast and that his guns sounded like " rattle machine" he always jumped to the side before firing, and I know that John Farnum who is a well respected trainner of modern times recomends this. These older methods used point shooting as the gun came level from a strong side carry. Since most gunfights occur at 3-20' I'm going to work this into my trainning regimen. A word of caution is in order using live ammo and fastdrawning so don't use anylive ammo until your confident of your abilities. Single Shot or D.A. revolvers were used, but I see no reason any gun could not be used. I've worked on this using plastic cases and bullets powered by a primer and my max. distance is 12'. A shot to their gut or pelvic area stopped many of an old boy. Do you think that this is another tool in our bag of skills and valid today. I'm intrested in your opinion. Thanks, Lyle

[bds32]

I like to study the old stuff also. I've read and do believe that handgun fighting has remained relatively unchanged over the past 150 years. Most of the time, it is going to come to down to a few quick shots from either side at close range. It doesn't matter whether or not the pistol is made of steel or mostly black plastic.

The key thing here is to study the details and learn what you can from them. There are lessons to learn from the old gunfighters like Hardin and Wild Bill Hickock. The most important of all, and you alluded to it, is to practice as much as possible, under the conditions that you will be carrying and using your pistol. After that, it is a matter of personality and circumstance when it comes time for the real deal.

[Wildalaska]

I have a book from the 1880s that advocates using the middle finger to pull the trigger of the handgun while laying the trigger finger along side the frame of the gun.


WilditriedititworksAlaska ™©2002-2010

[HiBC]

Hey,WildA,I have my Ruger Bisley Single Six 32 HR beside me,I think maybe the cylinder gap will gas cut my finger tip off if I try that!!
Another slightly more modern old school guy was Rex Applegate.His book was "Kill or Be Killed"

[mes228]

Have any of you watched the interview with the Chicago Policeman that has survived 14 gun fights? The link is posted on one of the boards I visit. One thing I found interesting was that he pretty much ended up shooting one handed when the balloon went up. As his other hand was used in shoving things away to hide behind etc. (if I remember correctly). He also spoke of "getting low" which I took as "kneeling" or "squatting' (to present a smaller target?). It's surprising how good natured and open he is in the interview. I am a two handed shooter and seldom shoot one handed. I am trying to do more one handed shooting currently. He also is a believer in heavy bullets and head shots. He has little interest in "target" accuracy and only practices at 7 yards (I think). He uses 6" paper plates as targets.

[kraigwy]

One of my favorites was Bill Jordon's NO SECOND PLACE WINNER.

Mainly the ideal of concentrating on drawing and firing one shot, one handed. This was geared more for LE and the practice method I stressed as a LE firearms instructor.

I think too much time is spent on two handed shooting. For the quick shot necessary, as in traffic stops, or at the door of a domestic dispute. Yes two handed shooting is probably better for accuracy, but getting that first shot off while your holding a flashlight, door, ticket book, or what ever in one hand.

If you think about it, how often do you have both hands free.

Yes sir, I think we can learn a lot from these old masters.

Some are good tactics, some of the old methods are just plain fun, How many, after reading Ed McGiven's FAST AND FANCY REVOLVER SHOOTING have practiced......... SHOOTING FROM RUNNING BOARDS.

[Jim March]

My daily carry is an SAA semi-clone, as most know. I've dropped the hammer reach down to 19th-century levels by swapping to a SuperBlackhawk hammer, which based on my measurements matches actual 1st-gen Colt ergonomics.

I believe in mixing modern and 19th century shooting techniques. I'm a sighted shooter, but I strongly believe in being able to shoot one handed. I believe the first shot out of the holster is fractionally faster one-handed and at short ranges leaves the other hand free for grappling or whatever.

I also believe in being able to get to the gun with either hand. I carry in either a fanny pack or if it's at all "jacket weather" as it is over 2/3rds of the year in Tucson, a high-ride, forward crossdraw setup.

[TimberWolf7.62]

For one thing, those guys back then didn't have any dumb-a$$ed ideas like turning the pistol sideways!!

[jimbob86]

but upside down was OK, as advocated by HighValleyRanch the other day:

You have to practice safely drawing from the reverse grip. Do it slowly. Pull straight up out of the holster, making sure to keep it vertical along the side of your torso, and immediately point the gun, upside down towards downrange, and then roll it over as you come to horizontal. You can do this around step three of the gunsite type presentation. Practice over and over with an empty gun, and check in the mirror to see if the "laser" points anywhere you don't want. Irregardless of what many people say, you CAN draw safely with some practice.

You are aware that Widl Bill Hickok and many, many others of his day wore the gun butt forward and used the cavalry twist draw or cross draw. Butt forward was common practice for many years.

[Jimmy10mm]

Another admirer of Bill Jordan's "No Second Place Winner" here. For anyone serious about training for fast draw and fire in a gunfight it is a must read IMO.

I've also read both of the Wes Hardin books mentioned in the OP. In my teen years I admired these people but into adulthood I came to realize that they were just homicidal hoodlums and no better than your garden variety street gang member doing a drive by nowadays. Just IMHO.

[BODAME]

Single or Double Action ,One Hand Point Shooting is a challange, but when you half way master it. you can surprise youself.
I started with a Single Six and some Coke cans went from there.
My favorite Jacket Carry is a Single Action AWA 45LC Sherrif's Model in a Holliday Chest Rig .

[Dwight55]

As much as I would like to carry my Beretta Stampede with it's beautiful color case hardened frame and beautiful blueing job, . . . my 1911 holds a total of 9, and with only one extra mag, I have 17 rounds on one reload, . . . one less than two reloads with the Beretta.

I'll stick to my semi-auto, . . . but I love shooting and practicing with my SAA replica.

May God bless,
Dwight

[Win73]

I've also read both of the Wes Hardin books mentioned in the OP. In my teen years I admired these people but into adulthood I came to realize that they were just homicidal hoodlums and no better than your garden variety street gang member doing a drive by nowadays. Just IMHO.

Now don't be too hard on old cousin Wes. He said he never shot anybody who didn't need shooting. Besides the family could forgive that minor little character flaw of killing forty people. But at the end of his life he did something that we just couldn't forgive. He went beyond the pale. He became a lawyer!!!

[Teuthis]

I would not necessarily call that stuff "old style." The principle difference in then and now is semi-auto pistols and a lot of wasted shots. Point shooting, with one hand, was and still is, an integral part of handgun shooting. It is a skill that could save your life today as well as it did one hundred fifty years ago.

There is today, a lot of "science" and very little experience, behind the theories and tactics being taught for handgun defense. Having the skill, alertness and drill to have your firearm out before you need to fire; pointing and shooting accurately with one hand, while you are getting to cover, can make all the difference in survival or death. No "modern" techniques can surpass those tactics; nor can spraying seventeen inaccurate shots over the landscape. I consider a quick draw a failed tactic because if you have to draw like that, you were not anticipating the event in time.

[shafter]

I think alot of those old timers knew what they were about. Their guns didn't hold 20rds so they had to make what they had count. What ever method you use it should be as basic as possible and practiced as often as possible.

[TylerD45ACP]

They were awesome I wanted to live in the old west. However my favorite time period I wish I was in right now would be the 1930's

[g.willikers]

The interview that Mes228 referred to might have been proarmspodcast.com, number 52

[Slamfire]

Mr. Hardin according to his land lady, Annie Williams practiced drawing and firing daily.

Maybe you should learn old style bushwacking.

Hardin may have practiced daily, but John Selman stalked and shot him from behind. These “old” gunfighters were about killing, not fair game.

A Colt SAA attributed to John Selman is located in the El Paso Historical Museum. With it is a letter from the donor, a man who knew Selman and the revolver. The trigger guard has notches for “white men” that Selman killed, Mexicans were not counted, and for “significant” men (Bass Outlaw for one) Selman drew arrows on the cylinders which fired the fatal shot.

Selman would display his pistol, the markings, and reminisce about the men he killed.

Imagine the mentality of a guy like that.

Hardin was a psychopath. I read his book, he was a psychopath pure and simple, he was forced in to it, nothing was his fault.

The guys you should worry about are going to be like psychopaths like Hardin and Selman. They are not going to give you warning and they are not going to give you a chance. It will not be a fair fight.

Situational awareness will be more important to survival than pure gunfighting skills.

[cole k]

At our range you can practice draw and shoot.

I do draw some strange looks because I practice draw and shoot one handed.
As I draw I will turn my shoulder toward the target and step back and sometimes I’ll drop to my knees.

The Young Guns don’t seem to practice very much. IMO.

The last LEO shootout we had here the perp shot and killed his father with a .22 rifle.
5 LEOs showed up as the perp was walking street. A gunfight broke out. More than 50 shots were fired. 3 LEOs were wounded and the perp was killed.

[Walter]

Slamfire said

Situational awareness will be more important to survival than pure gunfighting skills.

I agree. Always has been, always will be.

John Hardin, Bill Hickok, Jesse James, and how many others, got killed when
they weren't expecting it.

Walter

[TylerD45ACP]

Hardin was a gambler at the end of his rope when killed. He made a fatal mistake of having his back to the door.

[Eagle0711]

Thanks, all comments appreciated and will be considered. I started with "No Second Place Winner" I followed the directions and could hit a hanging karate gi at 12' with my model 66. I have almost every page covered in notes. Bill Jordan killed a lot of folks but refused to talk about those experiences. He was badmouthed by a gunwriter a couple years ago. I'll bet if Mr. jordan were alive that wouldn't have happened. Mr. Jordan died of natural causes well into his 80s. He must have done something right. I know that he didn't care for 1911s or the Modern Technique. I'm sure that he is missed by many. Some of you younger fellows may want to look into his life, it's very intresting. Thanks,Lyle

[higgy1911]

I think there is plenty to be learned from the old school, and not much that needs to be thrown out. But there are a few things.

shooting for the gut. It might work sometimes, but it might not. Its not a fight stopping shot if you are up against a determined adversary. For that matter neither is a heart shot. It could take between 15 and 300 seconds for a heart thats stopped working to impede the body its in. Thats plenty of time to shoot back. I bet all of you can empty a 30 round AR mag in fifteen seconds, much less a fifteen round pistol mag.

So the biggest problem I have with the Old School is the idea of drawing fast and firing one shot. One shot might be enough but it might not, so train to fire lots. Train to move, because even after you have delivered lethal shots the fight could go on long enough to kill you.

One handed shooting is great and you might have to do it. Practice it. But know that its just as fast to shoot with two hands and the sights, and you most often will be able to if you practice good tactics, like creating and maintaining distance.

I have seen videos of cops and bgs at bad breath distance pulling guns and firing away, when the cops draw would have been no slower at all if he had been retreating and using both hands.

[Panfisher]

It seems to me that there is a lot of good, highly valuable information and tactics from the "old school" that still applies today. Practice, practice, practice, hit what you are shooting at and don't stop until the threat is over.

I always cringe a little when we start comparing ourselves to what I term as "freaks with guns", not meaning it in a bad way just that many of those folks are so far above the average shooter in skill level that its like comparing my jumpshot to Michael Jordan. When we try to emulate folks like Wes Hardin, Bill Jordan, Farmer Peel or whomever we forget to work the basics until they are second nature.

To me if you can hit that target every time from an aiming stance, then work up to a slow draw and hit then you can work up to faster drills. A slower draw and a solid killing shot is much more important than a lightning fast shot that misses repeatedly at 10 yards or less. I suspect there have been many a person killed in combat situations by the slower shooter simply because he took that extra little bit of time and didn't miss.

Also those old veterans of multiple gunfights leaned that they had to stay in the fight and finish it, I doubt if I would have the testicular fortitude to stand and calmly place my shots well while bullets we being sent my way by someonew who wanted me dead.

Veterans who have seen combat are a different breed, my father was a WWII veteran of battles in the Aleutian Islands and the thought of gunsmoke, people shooting at him and blood didn't bother him in fact on those few occasions where there was possibilities he actually got what I would describe as stone cold, but he could get excited at the possibility of hunting quail or squirrels.

Having said all that someone who can draw and place those shots correctly in 1 1/2 seconds will beat guys like me who will do it in 3 seconds. But I don't think there are lot of people whom I might ever need to shoot that are going to be quick draw experts, at least I certainly hope not.

[aarondhgraham]

Interesting narrative,,,

I would have enjoyed reading it more if you would have broken up your paragraphs every now and then.

Those long blocks of unbroken text are very difficult to read.

I'm not ragging on you my friend,,,
Just suggesting you could use the "return" key a bit more.

.