M1A or heavy barreled AR?

cgbills · August 10, 2009, 08:30 AM

Ok this may seem like an apples to oranges thing but I have been throwing around some ideas in my head and want your opinion. I currently have a standard SA M1a on layaway. I had a savage 12fvss in .308 that I used on trade in for it. I want to scope the M1a for some longer range shooting, within 400 yards. The thing is I started thinking. My Savage did not get much range time because of the simple fact that good 308 costs so much. So I started thinking that maybe if I want an accurate, scoped semi-auto rifle maybe I should get a heavy barreled AR. The DPMSs look good but I see that Sig now has the 556 DMR heavy barreled. Maybe I could get just the upper of that seeing how I already have a Sig 556 classic. Not only is good 5.56 much cheaper, but I already have 2000+ rounds of m-193. I know I won’t have near the range or thump of a 308, or the coolness of the M1a but I would get more range time.

blume357 · August 10, 2009, 08:49 AM

but I think you are right and the heavy barreled AR is the way to go...much easier on the pocketbook and body.

darkgael · August 10, 2009, 08:59 AM

Shooters rightly have love affairs with both firearms. For your stated purpose, the AR - and HBar - is the way to go. Less $ per round, less recoil. And, with proper twist rate and bullet selection, the AR will shoot inside the M1A all day out past 600 yards. You won't do that, however, with 55 grain FMJ ammo.

olyinaz · August 10, 2009, 09:31 AM

I've been costing the same issue and it really does seem as if, bang for the buck, it's hard to beat an AR platform these days.

While it's not going to shoot with an M1A (or a 7.62 AR) the other low cost big bore that I've been considering (from a purely fun & cost point of view) is a Dragunov. They're darn neat to look at, it's a .30-06 class weapon, I assume that they're fun to shoot given my experience with AKs and Finnish 7.62 Valmets, and 7.62x54 ammo is still reasonably inexpensive.

I guess the whole thing comes down to what kind of shooting you're looking to do.

Best,
Oly

cgbills · August 10, 2009, 09:38 AM

will the 55gr do decent through a 1 in 9 twist with in 400 yards? What about through a 1 in 10. I ask cause the 24 bull barreled DPMSs come in 1 in 9 twist, the Sig 556 DMR is a 1 in 10

Alleykat · August 10, 2009, 09:47 AM

What is it that you intend to "thump?" If it's just paper or other inanimate targets, you'll find the 5.56 to be up to the job. Lots of 600-yd matches won by ARs.

Skans · August 10, 2009, 09:58 AM

I'll take a good M1A any day over a semi-auto AR15.

5.56 makes a good full-auto round because of the larger capacity magazines. But, unless you like shooting prarie dogs at 1000 feet, you can dress up that AR15 all you want with rails, scopes, flashlights, etc., but it still shoots (well, designed to shoot) .5.56.

Just ask yourself: Has the military ever issued a semi-auto rifle in 5.56 to any of its troops?

Then ask yourself: What game do you specifically need .223/5.56 for....that a .22 long rifle or .22 magnum can't handle?

The point I'm getting at is that .223/5.56 is a pretty worthless round in a semi-auto rifle for HD or military purposes. And, I have a very hard time finding any game that I would actually prefer to use223/5.56 on over some other round. All these people buying semi-auto AR's.....I just don't get it.

Alleykat · August 10, 2009, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Just ask yourself: Has the military ever issued a semi-auto rifle in 5.56 to any of its troops?

Just ask yourself: Has the military ever issued a bolt-action rifle in 5.56 to any of its troops?

Just ask yourself: Has the military ever issued single-shot rifles in 5.56 to any of its troops?

Just ask yourself: Who wins at Camp Perry??

Just ask yourself: Who posts non-germane questions?

RT · August 10, 2009, 11:45 AM

LaRue OSR-- best of both worlds

Skans · August 10, 2009, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Just ask yourself: Has the military ever issued a bolt-action rifle in 5.56 to any of its troops?

Not that I'm aware of. But, I believe it currently issues the M24, chamberd for the 7.62x51 caliber round with a 5 or 10-round internally-held magazine.

Quote:

Just ask yourself: Has the military ever issued single-shot rifles in 5.56 to any of its troops?

Maybe the Mouseketeer Paper-Punching Army....

Quote:

Just ask yourself: Who wins at Camp Perry??

I don't know, maybe Kurt Palmer - Garand Trophy--Overall As-Issued ???

sneaky pete · August 10, 2009, 03:00 PM

old Sneaky here: Just to get my 2cents in--what wins "Service Rifle @ Perry???--Hell even the Jar-heads gave up on their m14s in favor of ARs-- But then I'm an "OLD Brown Shoe Marine" and like my Jan '43 SA Garand BUT my '73 Colt SP-1 shoots circles aroud it.THANX--SNEAKY

brian45auto · August 10, 2009, 07:19 PM

if you are even 25% serious about long range accuracy, you will not be buying off the shelf ammo.

DnPRK · August 10, 2009, 08:24 PM

There's a reason why M-16s and AR-15s replaced M-14s and M-1As in service rifle matches.

jborushko · August 10, 2009, 08:27 PM

as the old car adage goes... there's no replacement for displacement...

i have both a heavy barrels AR (among my 5 other ARs) and a national match m1a with the stainless steel heavy barrel... i love pushing her out to 900m something a AR cant

what kinda of shooting are you trying to do? with in 400yrds? i guess id go with the AR its just cheaper all the way around...

but me? i like my m1a NM

cgbills · August 10, 2009, 09:33 PM

see that is the thing, i dont have a place to shoot that is past 400m

darkgael · August 10, 2009, 09:57 PM

Quote:

i love pushing her out to 900m something a AR cant

I'm told - I haven't done it and don't have the barrel to do so - that the fast twist ARs - at 1/7" - and heavy 80-90 grain match bullets will shoot with the M1A out to 1000 yards.
Pete

ronl · August 10, 2009, 10:08 PM

I have a HB Armalite and a NM M1A that has been tweeked a little and I really like both guns. If you are only planning to shoot out to 400 yds I'd go with the AR with a 1/7 or 1/8 twist so you could shoot the 77 and 80gr bullets. Both of my rifles will shoot under 1MOA rather easily provided I do my part and feed them what they like. I would also suggest investing in reloading equipment in order to tailor your bullets to whatever rifle you decide to buy. Personally, I prefer the .308 as it bucks the wind much better than any .223 round.

gun nut · August 10, 2009, 10:18 PM

Get the ar in 308. Armalite, dpms, remington.

olyinaz · August 11, 2009, 12:30 AM

>>>All these people buying semi-auto AR's.....I just don't get it.<<<

Hey no problem, I don't get why anyone would want to get pounded by a .30 caliber round for simple plinking out in the desert with his boys. I don't get why I'd want to spend 50% more on ammo vs. .223. I don't get why I'd bust hares and coyotes with a .308 when .223 knocks 'em flat. I don't get why I'd want to tote a rig that weighs 50% more if there's no need whatsoever.

So you see, there's lot of things we both don't get - you're in good company.

Regards,
Oly

Skans · August 11, 2009, 08:50 AM

Quote:

There's a reason why M-16s and AR-15s replaced M-14s and M-1As in service rifle matches.

As far as I know the military hasn't adopted the AR15 platform for anything. Semi-auto M-14's or M1A's have at least been in service.

You can't compare a full auto M16 or variant to an AR15. If you are going to do some slow fire style long range contests, well, a good bolt action rifle will out perform an AR15 any day. As far as shooting hares and coyotes goes, I'd much prefer having my Remington 700 22-250 back for that. Or, even a bolt action .223 if ammo cost is a factor. I'm not saying that an AR15 won't get the job done - just not my choice for doing that kind of work.

In my opinion, and AR15 is like having a castrated chiwawa. Some people might find that they look cute and make a lot of noise, but that's all they're really good for.

Its really hard to defend any military style 5.56/.223 rifle. If you're going to be limited to one shot per trigger pull, then there is no reason not to jump up to .308 or if you're just doing some target shooting go to a bolt action rifle.

FWIW, I have a Colt AR15, so I don't have any hidden hate or agenda against the AR15. Nor am I saying the M16 is useless - I'm specifically addressing the AR15.

I guess there are just a lot of AR15 fans here. People probably like them because they are the easiest platform to customize. Regardless of how you deck them out, that doesn't address the issue that, for a semi-auto rifle, they utilize a rather "wimpy" (I'm gonna take some heat for that) round.

blume357 · August 11, 2009, 09:12 AM

but while we are rambling....

out of the many semi auto choices... for just about any use... home defense, war, target, hunting I would put an M1 Garrand last on my list.... if for no other reason...I value my thumb too much. with that said, that's just me... lot's of folks like the challenge of this old soldier .... and a hell of a lot of dead Japs and nazis could say more....

for the original posters wishes... I'll still stick with the target AR.

kraigwy · August 11, 2009, 11:11 AM

I know you're talking about scopped semis but I'll chime in anyway.

I've been shooting high power for over 30 years, Started out with a M1A that had been coverted in 1978 to a Heavy Barrel Super Match. I got dist. with it, and it still shoots today. The only problem I had with it, is I've shot our a few barrels and stretched out a few slings.

But I'm a realist, to be competitive now days in high power you need (and I needed) to move to the AR. (I use the WOA service rifle on my colt lower).

The new barrels, using heavy bullets make it more competive then the M1As. Not to mention cheaper to load for and eaiser to shoot.

I'll not give up my M1A, I still shoot it in matches, but for serious shooting I go to my AR.

Take into account both mine are quite heavy so you really couldnt call them tactical rifles, but they are shooters.

cgbills · August 11, 2009, 02:07 PM

Ok so I went into the gun shop to talk with the guy and they had a Bushmaster Varminter there for a good price. I read some reviews (sounds like an awesome shooter) and decided to pull the trigger on it. Also the barrel seems just right to be threaded for a silencer

now I am debating on scopes. If I decide to go the $500-$700 range I think it will be the bushnell elite 4200 6-24x50. If I go $700-$900 it will be the Sightron SIII 6-24x50. Thanks for the input. I'll let you know how it shoots

Robert Yanichko · August 12, 2009, 02:05 PM

I have a NM M1A, Armalite AR-10T, and a couple ARs. They are all different. My AR10 will actually outshoot my M1A (could be it's getting a little worn). Both will outshoot my ARs, even my somewhat tweaked one. Yes an AR with a good twist and heavy bullets will shoot very well for the weight of the platform. But thats not taking advantage of the ammo you have on hand.

You will get lots of advice. Read it , weigh it, and then do what you want. You are going to be the one using it and the only person that has to be satisfied is you.

Mannlicher · August 12, 2009, 04:19 PM

sounds like you just can't afford all the toys you want.

Sadly, thats more and more the rule these days. The only advice I would offer is to figure out which you 'need' more, and stick with that platform.

View Poll Results: Which one for a good semi-auto scoped rifle
SA M1a	36	50.00%
Heavy Barreled AR like DPMS	36	50.00%
Voters: 72. You may not vote on this poll

August 10, 2009, 08:30 AM	#1
cgbills Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 2006 Location: Central Indiana Posts: 274	M1A or heavy barreled AR? Ok this may seem like an apples to oranges thing but I have been throwing around some ideas in my head and want your opinion. I currently have a standard SA M1a on layaway. I had a savage 12fvss in .308 that I used on trade in for it. I want to scope the M1a for some longer range shooting, within 400 yards. The thing is I started thinking. My Savage did not get much range time because of the simple fact that good 308 costs so much. So I started thinking that maybe if I want an accurate, scoped semi-auto rifle maybe I should get a heavy barreled AR. The DPMSs look good but I see that Sig now has the 556 DMR heavy barreled. Maybe I could get just the upper of that seeing how I already have a Sig 556 classic. Not only is good 5.56 much cheaper, but I already have 2000+ rounds of m-193. I know I won’t have near the range or thump of a 308, or the coolness of the M1a but I would get more range time. __________________ "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke Last edited by cgbills; August 10, 2009 at 08:51 AM.

August 10, 2009, 08:49 AM	#2
blume357 Senior Member Join Date: August 2, 2005 Location: Greenville, SC Posts: 3,943	Before reading your post I would have voted for another 308 but I think you are right and the heavy barreled AR is the way to go...much easier on the pocketbook and body.

August 10, 2009, 08:59 AM	#3
darkgael Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2006 Location: Homes in Brooklyn, NY and in Pennsylvania. Posts: 5,473	AR Shooters rightly have love affairs with both firearms. For your stated purpose, the AR - and HBar - is the way to go. Less $ per round, less recoil. And, with proper twist rate and bullet selection, the AR will shoot inside the M1A all day out past 600 yards. You won't do that, however, with 55 grain FMJ ammo. __________________ “Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games.” Ernest Hemingway ... NRA Life Member

August 10, 2009, 09:38 AM	#5
cgbills Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 2006 Location: Central Indiana Posts: 274	will the 55gr do decent through a 1 in 9 twist with in 400 yards? What about through a 1 in 10. I ask cause the 24 bull barreled DPMSs come in 1 in 9 twist, the Sig 556 DMR is a 1 in 10 __________________ "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke

August 10, 2009, 09:31 AM	#4
olyinaz Senior Member Join Date: February 25, 2009 Location: Arizona Posts: 877	I've been costing the same issue and it really does seem as if, bang for the buck, it's hard to beat an AR platform these days. While it's not going to shoot with an M1A (or a 7.62 AR) the other low cost big bore that I've been considering (from a purely fun & cost point of view) is a Dragunov. They're darn neat to look at, it's a .30-06 class weapon, I assume that they're fun to shoot given my experience with AKs and Finnish 7.62 Valmets, and 7.62x54 ammo is still reasonably inexpensive. I guess the whole thing comes down to what kind of shooting you're looking to do. Best, Oly

August 10, 2009, 09:47 AM	#6
Alleykat Junior member Join Date: July 26, 2007 Posts: 3,668	What is it that you intend to "thump?" If it's just paper or other inanimate targets, you'll find the 5.56 to be up to the job. Lots of 600-yd matches won by ARs.

August 10, 2009, 09:58 AM	#7
Skans Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 11,332	I'll take a good M1A any day over a semi-auto AR15. 5.56 makes a good full-auto round because of the larger capacity magazines. But, unless you like shooting prarie dogs at 1000 feet, you can dress up that AR15 all you want with rails, scopes, flashlights, etc., but it still shoots (well, designed to shoot) .5.56. Just ask yourself: Has the military ever issued a semi-auto rifle in 5.56 to any of its troops? Then ask yourself: What game do you specifically need .223/5.56 for....that a .22 long rifle or .22 magnum can't handle? The point I'm getting at is that .223/5.56 is a pretty worthless round in a semi-auto rifle for HD or military purposes. And, I have a very hard time finding any game that I would actually prefer to use223/5.56 on over some other round. All these people buying semi-auto AR's.....I just don't get it.

August 10, 2009, 11:45 AM	#9
RT Senior Member Join Date: September 10, 2000 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 2,194	LaRue OSR-- best of both worlds

August 10, 2009, 03:00 PM	#11
sneaky pete Senior Member Join Date: November 24, 2004 Location: Florida Keys Posts: 510	old Sneaky here: Just to get my 2cents in--what wins "Service Rifle @ Perry???--Hell even the Jar-heads gave up on their m14s in favor of ARs-- But then I'm an "OLD Brown Shoe Marine" and like my Jan '43 SA Garand BUT my '73 Colt SP-1 shoots circles aroud it.THANX--SNEAKY

August 10, 2009, 07:19 PM	#12
brian45auto Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2009 Location: eastern pa Posts: 499	if you are even 25% serious about long range accuracy, you will not be buying off the shelf ammo.

August 10, 2009, 08:24 PM	#13
DnPRK Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2001 Location: LC, Ca Posts: 1,917	There's a reason why M-16s and AR-15s replaced M-14s and M-1As in service rifle matches.

August 10, 2009, 08:27 PM	#14
jborushko Senior Member Join Date: August 5, 2009 Location: Tacoma WA Posts: 469	as the old car adage goes... there's no replacement for displacement... i have both a heavy barrels AR (among my 5 other ARs) and a national match m1a with the stainless steel heavy barrel... i love pushing her out to 900m something a AR cant what kinda of shooting are you trying to do? with in 400yrds? i guess id go with the AR its just cheaper all the way around... but me? i like my m1a NM

August 10, 2009, 09:33 PM	#15
cgbills Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 2006 Location: Central Indiana Posts: 274	see that is the thing, i dont have a place to shoot that is past 400m __________________ "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke

August 10, 2009, 10:08 PM	#17
ronl Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2007 Posts: 1,127	I have a HB Armalite and a NM M1A that has been tweeked a little and I really like both guns. If you are only planning to shoot out to 400 yds I'd go with the AR with a 1/7 or 1/8 twist so you could shoot the 77 and 80gr bullets. Both of my rifles will shoot under 1MOA rather easily provided I do my part and feed them what they like. I would also suggest investing in reloading equipment in order to tailor your bullets to whatever rifle you decide to buy. Personally, I prefer the .308 as it bucks the wind much better than any .223 round.

August 10, 2009, 10:18 PM	#18
gun nut Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 2009 Location: midwest Posts: 303	Get the ar in 308. Armalite, dpms, remington.

August 11, 2009, 12:30 AM	#19
olyinaz Senior Member Join Date: February 25, 2009 Location: Arizona Posts: 877	>>>All these people buying semi-auto AR's.....I just don't get it.<<< Hey no problem, I don't get why anyone would want to get pounded by a .30 caliber round for simple plinking out in the desert with his boys. I don't get why I'd want to spend 50% more on ammo vs. .223. I don't get why I'd bust hares and coyotes with a .308 when .223 knocks 'em flat. I don't get why I'd want to tote a rig that weighs 50% more if there's no need whatsoever. So you see, there's lot of things we both don't get - you're in good company. Regards, Oly

August 11, 2009, 09:12 AM	#21
blume357 Senior Member Join Date: August 2, 2005 Location: Greenville, SC Posts: 3,943	Just to say something and it is a little off topic... but while we are rambling.... out of the many semi auto choices... for just about any use... home defense, war, target, hunting I would put an M1 Garrand last on my list.... if for no other reason...I value my thumb too much. with that said, that's just me... lot's of folks like the challenge of this old soldier .... and a hell of a lot of dead Japs and nazis could say more.... for the original posters wishes... I'll still stick with the target AR.

August 11, 2009, 11:11 AM	#22
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,060	I know you're talking about scopped semis but I'll chime in anyway. I've been shooting high power for over 30 years, Started out with a M1A that had been coverted in 1978 to a Heavy Barrel Super Match. I got dist. with it, and it still shoots today. The only problem I had with it, is I've shot our a few barrels and stretched out a few slings. But I'm a realist, to be competitive now days in high power you need (and I needed) to move to the AR. (I use the WOA service rifle on my colt lower). The new barrels, using heavy bullets make it more competive then the M1As. Not to mention cheaper to load for and eaiser to shoot. I'll not give up my M1A, I still shoot it in matches, but for serious shooting I go to my AR. Take into account both mine are quite heavy so you really couldnt call them tactical rifles, but they are shooters.

August 11, 2009, 02:07 PM	#23
cgbills Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 2006 Location: Central Indiana Posts: 274	Ok so I went into the gun shop to talk with the guy and they had a Bushmaster Varminter there for a good price. I read some reviews (sounds like an awesome shooter) and decided to pull the trigger on it. Also the barrel seems just right to be threaded for a silencer now I am debating on scopes. If I decide to go the $500-$700 range I think it will be the bushnell elite 4200 6-24x50. If I go $700-$900 it will be the Sightron SIII 6-24x50. Thanks for the input. I'll let you know how it shoots __________________ "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke

August 12, 2009, 02:05 PM	#24
Robert Yanichko Junior Member Join Date: February 13, 2009 Posts: 8	I have a NM M1A, Armalite AR-10T, and a couple ARs. They are all different. My AR10 will actually outshoot my M1A (could be it's getting a little worn). Both will outshoot my ARs, even my somewhat tweaked one. Yes an AR with a good twist and heavy bullets will shoot very well for the weight of the platform. But thats not taking advantage of the ammo you have on hand. You will get lots of advice. Read it , weigh it, and then do what you want. You are going to be the one using it and the only person that has to be satisfied is you.

August 12, 2009, 04:19 PM	#25
Mannlicher Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2001 Location: North Central Florida & Miami Posts: 3,239	sounds like you just can't afford all the toys you want. Sadly, thats more and more the rule these days. The only advice I would offer is to figure out which you 'need' more, and stick with that platform. __________________ Nemo Me Impune Lacesset "The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.".........Ronald Reagan