That Was Energetic... Bullseye Powder Loads???

Josh Smith · June 17, 2009, 08:16 AM

http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi/cata...658.3884=90346

Hello,

Using the above bullet mould.

I found some Bullseye today. Just a pound.

Working from old data, I came up with about 4.9gn under a 230gn boolit. Min listed at 4.7, max 5.1.

The recoil was quite energetic.

Looking at the latest data on Alliant's page, it looks like the new max charge is 5.7gn for a 230gn jacketed bullet.

I don't see that a 1911 would hold up all that well to that load. At least, the shooter's hands would be sore.

My load (new pet load, btw) burns completely, better than W231, and generates a bit more felt recoil than my Hydra-Shok defensive ammo.

Is the new published data wrong? Or have they changed the powder that much?

Additionally, what are your favorite loads using Bullseye? Besides being fun to discuss, this might establish a baseline for comparison.

Thanks,

Josh <><

Slamfire · June 17, 2009, 08:26 AM

Lead bullets produce more pressure, at the same charge weight, as jacketed bullets.

It used to be that 5.0 grains bullseye with a 230 FMJ was considered a Ball equivalent load. I am using 4.5 grains with a LRN. Shoots fine.

Code:

Kimber Custom Classic M1911

230 LFN Bull-X 3.5 grs Bullseye Mixed Brass WLP OAL 1.20" taper crimp .469"	


8-Jan-06	T = 61 °F

Ave Vel =643.6				
Std Dev =14.07			
ES =	63.63			
High = 	679.9		 		
Low =	616.3				
N =	32
				 
 shot a little high Pistol cycled each shot



230 LFN Bull-X 4.0 grs Bullseye Mixed Brass WLP OAL 1.20" taper crimp .469"		
		

8-Jan-06	T = 61 °F

Ave Vel =715.9				
Std Dev =11.45			
ES =	48.32		 		
High = 	742.9		 		
Low =	694.8				
N =	32				 
shot a little low

230 gr LRN 4.0 grs Bullseye Mixed Brass WLP OAL 1.250" taper crimp .469"		
	
29-Jan-06 T = 68  °F	
Ave Vel =698.8				
Std Dev =10.19		
ES =36.33		 		
High = 713.5				
Low =677.1				
N =28
				 
V. Accurate
		
230 gr LRN  4.5 grs Bullseye Mixed Brass WLP OAL 1.250" taper crimp .469"		
21-Jun-06 T = 97  °F	
	
Ave Vel = 805.2		
Std Dev =11.4		
ES=54.08		
High=836.9		 
Low=782.8		 
 N =32

Scorch · June 17, 2009, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Lead bullets produce more pressure, at the same charge weight, as jacketed bullets.

My understanding of the physics involved are that lead bullets are softer and have a lower friction coefficient than jacketed bullets, giving higher velocities with less powder, while generating lower pressures.

5.0-5.1 gr of Bullseye for 230 gr lead bullets and 5.5-5.6 for 230 gr jacketed bullets has been a common load for duplicating GI ball for a long time, at least as long as I have been loading (35 years). Max loads for 230 gr jacketed bullets vary by which manual I look at, but are pretty close, between 5.5 to 5.7 gr of Bullseye.

Bullseye is a "standardized" powder, meaning the powder produced today is so close to powder produced 50 years ago as to be virtually indistinguishable in its performance characteristics.

doug66 · June 17, 2009, 01:03 PM

Josh,
I load same bullet over 4.5gr of Bullseye.

snuffy · June 17, 2009, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Lead bullets produce more pressure, at the same charge weight, as jacketed bullets.

That's not what I understand .

Quote:

My understanding of the physics involved are that lead bullets are softer and have a lower friction coefficient than jacketed bullets, giving higher velocities with less powder, while generating lower pressures.

That's my understanding as well. You can actually use jacketed data to begin a load work-up using starting loads.

The theory is that soft lead boolits seal better because they obturate,(slug up, shorten and expand sideways), better. That's IF they fit the bore. AND it's IF they get kicked in the pants hard enough to obturate. 45 acp loads are seldom loaded hot enough to obturate unless the boolits are nearly pure lead.

What lead alloy are you using? Wheelweights are actually too hard to obturate at normal 45 load levels. Cutting WW metal 50% with pure lead will yield a boolit soft enough to obturate at the lower pressure levels of the 45 acp.

kraigwy · June 17, 2009, 01:14 PM

Back in the 80s the army ran out of 45 ACP ammo. I was running the AK NG Marksmanship unit at the time. To allow our pistol teams to keep shooting 45s I bought Bullseye and 231 Powder. To equal the velocity of the GI ball and Match, we loaded 5.0 in Jacketed bullets and 4.7 grans with cast bullets. 5 grns of 231 gave us the same velocity in cast bullets.

Having said that, we determined there is no need to shoot hard ball velocities in bullseye matches. An accurate load (cast bullets) that worked both at 50 and 25 yards. Easier on the shooter.

But, shooting hard ball (Mil Spec) wont hurt a USGI or Colt Sieries 70 1911 style pistol.

I have a 1911a1 that was made in 1943, I have no ideal how many rounds was put through it before I got it, but since the mid 70s I know I've shot untold thousands of round of military hardball. My Series 70 Gold Cup, I've had since 1976 has also had thousands of rounds of military hardball through it. Now I shoot either 3.8 of Bullseye or 4.5 of 231 with 230 grn cast bullets, mild but works at 50 yards and its easier on ME.

**Unclenick** · June 17, 2009, 01:33 PM

The pressure is the key. Lead definitely results in lower pressure with light target loads. However, lead bullets distort under pressure more easily and both Skeeter Skelton and Elmer Keith (IIRC) found them producing higher pressure in magnum revolver loads than jacketed bullets do. The explanation I've heard is just that the soft bullet bases get bulged out into the forcing cone of the revolver, adding the force needed to swage the bullet into the bore to the force needed to keep it moving.

In .45 ACP, I've not personally seen an obturation driven pressure hike, but I suppose some level of that is possible at higher pressures? What I have seen, however, is the bullet bases getting seated deeper into the case. If you have a full load, just 1/8" deeper seating can raise pressure from about 18,000 psi to over 23,000 psi (the SAAMI +P limit). Lead bullets push back into the case easily if the crimp is not properly applied, and that can be dangerous. Crimp carefully. The other way this happens is some cast bullet shapes seat deeper than their jacketed counterparts do at the same COL. Going between RN and TC shaped bullets of the same weight can do it, too. So check that the base of the bullet you are loading is no deeper in the case than its hardball counterpart. If it is, you need to back the load down.

I notice the Alliant site has a 5.1 grain load of Red Dot listed under the 230 grain round nose lead Speer bullet. That should run warmer than an equal load of Bullseye, but guns are individual and stranger things have happened, so work up slowly from about 4.2 grains of Bullseye and watch for pressure signs. If you get a load that feels to you about like commercial 230 grain hardball, I would stop right there. Get the use of a chronograph and see how the two compare? No point in battering the gun or the shooter unnecessarily.

Slamfire · June 17, 2009, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Lead bullets produce more pressure, at the same charge weight, as jacketed bullets

.

Error. An examination of my Lyman 48th edition shows no conclusive trend.

Pocketfisherman · June 17, 2009, 10:48 PM

Bullseye is a very fast burning power and will generate a very sharp recoil impulse. IF you load to equivalent velocities, a load with Bullseye is going to feel a lot snappier with the same bullet than the load would with w231 or WST. Such is the nature of fast burning powders.

Josh Smith · June 18, 2009, 08:42 PM

Thank you gents.

What would be the general velocity (I know all barrels are different) for a 5" 1911 loaded with 4.5gn of BE under a 230gn LRN cast?

I'm currently trying to find an inexpensive chrono, but they're either sold out or overpriced.

Thanks,

Josh <><

Slamfire · June 19, 2009, 09:55 PM

Quote:

What would be the general velocity (I know all barrels are different) for a 5" 1911 loaded with 4.5gn of BE under a 230gn LRN cast

My Kimber Custom Classic has a 5 inch barrel. And my data is posted above.

SL1 · June 22, 2009, 08:33 AM

Prressure vs charge weight with lead bullets is actually a pretty complicated question. At low pressures, the bullet acts like a rigid part. When it gets pushed into the rifling, it must deform to fit, but, after that, it slides down the bore without pushing sideways against the bore surface, because lead is not springy.

But, if the gas pressure is higher than the compressive strength of the lead, then the back of the bullet will flow outward to push against the barrel surface. That increases friction between the barrel and bullet because friction is proportional to the force that pushes the two surfaces together.

The "pressure" inside the bullet goes from the gas pressure at its base to near zero at its nose, so only part of the bullet is being expanded against the barrel. (The pressure at the nose is whatever is required to drive the air out of the barrel ahead of the bullet.) The amount of bullet surface pressing against the barrel depends on how far along the bullet's length this internl pressure exceeds the compressive strength of the lead. That length is increased by increasing the gas pressure and/or by making the alloy softer.

So, in a pistol or rifle, the result for bullet resistance going down the barrel is not going to be anything like linear with charge weight. Once the bullet starts to expand at its base, pressure will go up faster. That is one reason that you can use higher pressures with harder bullets to get higher velocities.

When you go to a revolver, the barrel-to-cylinder gap makes things even more difficult to predict. The forcing cone is larger in diameter than either the chamber in the cylinder or the barrel's bore, so the bullet has a place that it CAN expand like a rivet when the nose meets the rifling while the base is being shoved out of the cylinder. If you get to the pressure where a bullet starts to rivet, then pressures can go up really fast. Even jacketed bullets can have that effect in some of the new really high pressure revolver cartridges that have been developed. Both the guns AND THE BULLETS for those cartidges are designed with that issue in mind. That is why the manufacturers tell you not to shoot bullets designed for the 45 Long Colt at high pressures in the .460 Winchester.

SL1

June 17, 2009, 08:16 AM	#1
Josh Smith member Join Date: November 5, 2000 Location: Wabash IN Posts: 740	That Was Energetic... Bullseye Powder Loads??? http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi/cata...658.3884=90346 Hello, Using the above bullet mould. I found some Bullseye today. Just a pound. Working from old data, I came up with about 4.9gn under a 230gn boolit. Min listed at 4.7, max 5.1. The recoil was quite energetic. Looking at the latest data on Alliant's page, it looks like the new max charge is 5.7gn for a 230gn jacketed bullet. I don't see that a 1911 would hold up all that well to that load. At least, the shooter's hands would be sore. My load (new pet load, btw) burns completely, better than W231, and generates a bit more felt recoil than my Hydra-Shok defensive ammo. Is the new published data wrong? Or have they changed the powder that much? Additionally, what are your favorite loads using Bullseye? Besides being fun to discuss, this might establish a baseline for comparison. Thanks, Josh <><

June 17, 2009, 01:33 PM	#7
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,743	The pressure is the key. Lead definitely results in lower pressure with light target loads. However, lead bullets distort under pressure more easily and both Skeeter Skelton and Elmer Keith (IIRC) found them producing higher pressure in magnum revolver loads than jacketed bullets do. The explanation I've heard is just that the soft bullet bases get bulged out into the forcing cone of the revolver, adding the force needed to swage the bullet into the bore to the force needed to keep it moving. In .45 ACP, I've not personally seen an obturation driven pressure hike, but I suppose some level of that is possible at higher pressures? What I have seen, however, is the bullet bases getting seated deeper into the case. If you have a full load, just 1/8" deeper seating can raise pressure from about 18,000 psi to over 23,000 psi (the SAAMI +P limit). Lead bullets push back into the case easily if the crimp is not properly applied, and that can be dangerous. Crimp carefully. The other way this happens is some cast bullet shapes seat deeper than their jacketed counterparts do at the same COL. Going between RN and TC shaped bullets of the same weight can do it, too. So check that the base of the bullet you are loading is no deeper in the case than its hardball counterpart. If it is, you need to back the load down. I notice the Alliant site has a 5.1 grain load of Red Dot listed under the 230 grain round nose lead Speer bullet. That should run warmer than an equal load of Bullseye, but guns are individual and stranger things have happened, so work up slowly from about 4.2 grains of Bullseye and watch for pressure signs. If you get a load that feels to you about like commercial 230 grain hardball, I would stop right there. Get the use of a chronograph and see how the two compare? No point in battering the gun or the shooter unnecessarily. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

June 17, 2009, 01:03 PM	#4
doug66 Senior Member Join Date: June 1, 2008 Location: Kansas Posts: 116	Josh, I load same bullet over 4.5gr of Bullseye.

June 17, 2009, 01:14 PM	#6
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,060	Back in the 80s the army ran out of 45 ACP ammo. I was running the AK NG Marksmanship unit at the time. To allow our pistol teams to keep shooting 45s I bought Bullseye and 231 Powder. To equal the velocity of the GI ball and Match, we loaded 5.0 in Jacketed bullets and 4.7 grans with cast bullets. 5 grns of 231 gave us the same velocity in cast bullets. Having said that, we determined there is no need to shoot hard ball velocities in bullseye matches. An accurate load (cast bullets) that worked both at 50 and 25 yards. Easier on the shooter. But, shooting hard ball (Mil Spec) wont hurt a USGI or Colt Sieries 70 1911 style pistol. I have a 1911a1 that was made in 1943, I have no ideal how many rounds was put through it before I got it, but since the mid 70s I know I've shot untold thousands of round of military hardball. My Series 70 Gold Cup, I've had since 1976 has also had thousands of rounds of military hardball through it. Now I shoot either 3.8 of Bullseye or 4.5 of 231 with 230 grn cast bullets, mild but works at 50 yards and its easier on ME.

June 17, 2009, 10:48 PM	#9
Pocketfisherman Member Join Date: June 2, 2009 Location: Central TX Posts: 92	Bullseye is a very fast burning power and will generate a very sharp recoil impulse. IF you load to equivalent velocities, a load with Bullseye is going to feel a lot snappier with the same bullet than the load would with w231 or WST. Such is the nature of fast burning powders.

June 18, 2009, 08:42 PM	#10
Josh Smith member Join Date: November 5, 2000 Location: Wabash IN Posts: 740	Thank you gents. What would be the general velocity (I know all barrels are different) for a 5" 1911 loaded with 4.5gn of BE under a 230gn LRN cast? I'm currently trying to find an inexpensive chrono, but they're either sold out or overpriced. Thanks, Josh <><

June 22, 2009, 08:33 AM	#12
SL1 Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2007 Posts: 2,001	Prressure vs charge weight with lead bullets is actually a pretty complicated question. At low pressures, the bullet acts like a rigid part. When it gets pushed into the rifling, it must deform to fit, but, after that, it slides down the bore without pushing sideways against the bore surface, because lead is not springy. But, if the gas pressure is higher than the compressive strength of the lead, then the back of the bullet will flow outward to push against the barrel surface. That increases friction between the barrel and bullet because friction is proportional to the force that pushes the two surfaces together. The "pressure" inside the bullet goes from the gas pressure at its base to near zero at its nose, so only part of the bullet is being expanded against the barrel. (The pressure at the nose is whatever is required to drive the air out of the barrel ahead of the bullet.) The amount of bullet surface pressing against the barrel depends on how far along the bullet's length this internl pressure exceeds the compressive strength of the lead. That length is increased by increasing the gas pressure and/or by making the alloy softer. So, in a pistol or rifle, the result for bullet resistance going down the barrel is not going to be anything like linear with charge weight. Once the bullet starts to expand at its base, pressure will go up faster. That is one reason that you can use higher pressures with harder bullets to get higher velocities. When you go to a revolver, the barrel-to-cylinder gap makes things even more difficult to predict. The forcing cone is larger in diameter than either the chamber in the cylinder or the barrel's bore, so the bullet has a place that it CAN expand like a rivet when the nose meets the rifling while the base is being shoved out of the cylinder. If you get to the pressure where a bullet starts to rivet, then pressures can go up really fast. Even jacketed bullets can have that effect in some of the new really high pressure revolver cartridges that have been developed. Both the guns AND THE BULLETS for those cartidges are designed with that issue in mind. That is why the manufacturers tell you not to shoot bullets designed for the 45 Long Colt at high pressures in the .460 Winchester. SL1