How hot can .45 ACP be loaded for use in a Ruger Blackhawk or Redhawk?

[TruthTellers]

I may have asked this before, but I'm thinking more and more of getting into loading .45 ACP for use in strong Ruger revolvers only that are capable of shooting the "Ruger only" .45 Colt.

I have the convertible Redhawk and while it's not as accurate shooting ACP as with Colt, I have hundreds of free ACP cases I get at the range and .45 Colt brass is nowhere to be found and not cheap and what I've got is usually loaded for other uses.

For plinking at typical distances (under 25 yards) the .45 ACP works for me, but given I have a Redhawk, I'd like to load it hotter. Now, I'm not talking 40k PSI levels, but if possible I'd like to load the ACP cases to above +P levels.

Can the brass do it or is it just a recipe for case failure? Who here has loaded .45 ACP hot for use in Ruger revolvers? What were your results?

EDIT: For the record I do not own any guns other than the Redhawk that can chamber and fire .45 ACP.

[zxcvbob]

The brass doesn't care. The problem is you'll have .45 Super ammo that looks like .45 ACP that could end up in a different gun. I would stop at .45 ACP +P. Use .45 Colt brass for your nuclear loads, and buy Starline for that and make sure you label the box well. Or buy some .45 Super brass.

[HiBC]

I'm not the expert .I would assume the brass,fully enclosed in a revolver cylinder,can handle what you suggest.

For myself,I'd have some concerns.

I'm fallible and I believe in Murphy's law.

I'd assume it could end up in a 1911.You could get a brass blowout.

A couple of other challenges might need to be solved.

Revolvers ,with the "freebore" nature of the cylinder throat,cylinder gap,and forcing cone,tend to require a good roll crimp into a crimp groove for good powder ignition. I don't doubt you can get that done...and it will work with moon clips as a headspace feature in a DA Redhawk,I guess.
Can you use moon clips with a Redhawk? I have no idea. It might be interesting in a Single action. A roll crimp compromises headspacing on the case mouth.

Its not insurmountable,just something to think about.

I think Starline sells 45 Auto Rimmed. A revolver bullet would provide a crimp groove.
You lprobably can't load 45 Auto Rimmed brass in a 1911 mag.

The 45 Colt brass is sized for black powder. You may find some advantage in reducing case volume.
It seems to me 45 Auto Rimmed brass might be a source of "smoothness" for your idea.

[TruthTellers]

Originally Posted by zxcvbob

The problem is you'll have .45 Super ammo that looks like .45 ACP that could end up in a different gun.

A different gun that I don't own.

I'd assume it could end up in a 1911.You could get a brass blowout.

A 1911... that I don't own.

Gentleman, the only gun I own capable of shooting .45 ACP is the Redhawk.

[TruthTellers]

Originally Posted by HiBC

I'm not the expert .I would assume the brass,fully enclosed in a revolver cylinder,can handle what you suggest.

Revolvers ,with the "freebore" nature of the cylinder throat,cylinder gap,and forcing cone,tend to require a good roll crimp into a crimp groove for good powder ignition. I don't doubt you can get that done...and it will work with moon clips as a headspace feature in a DA Redhawk,I guess.
Can you use moon clips with a Redhawk? I have no idea. It might be interesting in a Single action. A roll crimp compromises headspacing on the case mouth.

Its not insurmountable,just something to think about.

I think Starline sells 45 Auto Rimmed. A revolver bullet would provide a crimp groove.
You lprobably can't load 45 Auto Rimmed brass in a 1911 mag.

The 45 Colt brass is sized for black powder. You may find some advantage in reducing case volume.
It seems to me 45 Auto Rimmed brass might be a source of "smoothness" for your idea.

I regret to inform you that you don't know much about the Ruger Redhawk in .45 Colt/.45 ACP.

It uses moon clips for the .45 ACP, so yes, the ACP could be roll crimped, but I was thinking to use Berry's bullets and they say to not do a heavy roll crimp as it will break the plating on the bullet and cause issues.

The rim is too thick to use .45 Auto Rim.

[zxcvbob]

Try a light roll crimp; just enough to bite into the copper plating but not cut all the way through it.

I've never heard of a Redhawk convertible, I assumed you meant a Blackhawk. Are you sure .45 AR won't fit without the moon clip? That sounds like a good solution to me.

[TruthTellers]

Originally Posted by zxcvbob

I've never heard of a Redhawk convertible, I assumed you meant a Blackhawk. Are you sure .45 AR won't fit without the moon clip? That sounds like a good solution to me.

{Edit: Please read the board policy on posting copyrighted materials and on hotlinking}

Believe me, .45 Auto Rim has been tried.

[zeke]

Sierra's next to last manual has a special section for 45 acp revolvers that are loaded above most common plus p levels. I do not know if their newest manual has the same section.

[Unclenick]

It should work to load them warm as long as you work the loads up while watching that the cases don't swell excessively forward of the heads. Because of the long freebore and the barrel/cylinder gap it will last Kelly take a larger charge to get to pistol barrel standard pressure and velocity anyway.

I would add to the usual load box labeling, NOT FOR 1911 or something like that, just in case someone is tempted to dip into your supply. They won't read it, but at least your backside is covered.

[Mike / Tx]

Speaking of Starline, 45 Colt Special Brass

I realize the objective of the FREE 45acp brass but, free doesn't always come without a price tag. If I were going the higher pressure route I would probably have to go with the above, or simply pick up the standard Colt cases and get on with it.

A box of 500 will last seemingly forever if you not loosing them in the hunting field like I do on occasion. Sometimes chasing hogs down is just more important than keeping up with cases. That said, you could also split the amount and sell half on this or other forums.

With the ACP brass, I think the biggest issue you going to find is being able to keep bullets in place via the taper crimp vs a roll. Cannot be sure though until you try it. If you use something with a groove you'll probably be good, if not, watch for creep.

[dahermit]

Gentleman, the only gun I own capable of shooting .45 ACP is the Redhawk.

And of course your widow will break them down for the components when you die...will not give them away or sell your stuff to someone else.

[Hanshi]

Rarely do I shoot .45 acp in my Ruger revolver with the acp extra cylinder. Basically only one load goes through my BH. I load .45 Colt with a 260 grain cast bullet and 18 grains of 2400 powder. This gives 1250 fps in my 7.5" revolver. I have an S&W M25 and a 1911 for shooting .45 acp. So obviously the BHs are strong and the acp can be loaded up past 1911 power levels.

[Aguila Blanca]

Mike, your link didn't work. You had an extraneous http:// in there. I took the liberty of fixing it.

I think I have a box of those .45 Cowboy Special cases somewhere ...

[TruthTellers]

Originally Posted by dahermit

And of course your widow will break them down for the components when you die...will not give them away or sell your stuff to someone else.

I'm not married.

Seriously, why is every time a topic about loading hot ammo in a common case that's capable of being loaded to pressures above SAAMI spec and intended to be shot in strong/magnum guns met with the same conjecture or platitudes? Ammo could wind up in the wrong gun that I don't even own, Widows, children, other people... why exactly should I care what other people are going to do after I'm dead? Who is to say that any of this hot .45 ACP ammo is going to be around after I'm dead? What if every single round of this ammo I load I shoot so nobody will ever be able to shoot it except me?

I don't want to hear the "this could happen if X shoots it in the wrong gun after you're gone" argument, that's not the topic of conversation. I ask how hot can .45 ACP be loaded for use in revolvers capable of 30k PSI or higher, let's stick to that topic.

If it's not safe AT ALL for ANYONE (including myself and myself alone) to shoot because the cases are not capable of holding up to pressures greater than .45+P, then tell me that. If they can, cool. I'll just work up my loads.

[zxcvbob]

The cases can generally handle whatever the cylinder can. If the case does fail spectacularly in a revolver it doesn't hurt anything, although you may have trouble getting the headless case out of the chamber. (don't ask me how I know this)

.45 ACP is already a much higher pressure cartridge than .45 Colt. .45 ACP +P is 23000 PSI. I don't go much over 25000 in my Blackhawk, although the Redhawk may have thicker cylinder walls.

Look for .45 Super load data; it's out there, but the Berry's bullets are not a good choice.

[TruthTellers]

Originally Posted by zxcvbob

The cases can generally handle whatever the cylinder can. If the case does fail spectacularly in a revolver it doesn't hurt anything, although you may have trouble getting the headless case out of the chamber. (don't ask me how I know this)

.45 ACP is already a much higher pressure cartridge than .45 Colt. .45 ACP +P is 23000 PSI. I don't go much over 25000 in my Blackhawk, although the Redhawk may have thicker cylinder walls.

Look for .45 Super load data; it's out there, but the Berry's bullets are not a good choice.

Thank you for keeping on topic. I guess starting at .45 +P and working up to starting .45 Super loads would be the best place to start.

Berry's does recommend a certain max velocity with their bullets, usually 1250 fps. I was looking to do around 1100 from the Ruger with a 200 or 230 grain bullet. Given the longer cylinder and the gap, standard .45 ACP is probably going very slow and to up the velocity I need to up the pressure and I don't think even .45 ACP +P is going to deliver what I want.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by TruthTellers

Seriously, why is every time a topic about loading hot ammo in a common case that's capable of being loaded to pressures above SAAMI spec and intended to be shot in strong/magnum guns met with the same conjecture or platitudes? Ammo could wind up in the wrong gun that I don't even own, Widows, children, other people... why exactly should I care what other people are going to do after I'm dead? Who is to say that any of this hot .45 ACP ammo is going to be around after I'm dead? What if every single round of this ammo I load I shoot so nobody will ever be able to shoot it except me?

Because Murphy's law is always operative. "Whatever can go wrong, will go wrong."

Admittedly, it's unlikely to happen, but it's possible that you could be killed in an automobile accident an hour after you finish loading up 100 or 500 or 1,000 of those hot .45 ACP loads. Then whoever gets the task of handling your estate (which may or may not be someone who knows anything about firearms) will find a stash of ammunition bearing .45 ACP headstamps. How is that person to know that those are loaded to "Ruger only" +P+++ levels and should not be fired in a regular, run-of-the-mill 1911?

It's just poor practice to load ammunition in cases with the wrong headstamp.

[zxcvbob]

Will .460 Rowland or .45 Win Mag chamber in your Redhawk? Both would use moon clips. They are dimensionally very similar to .45 ACP and I think the heads are the same.

[Aguila Blanca]

The problem is that he has .45 ACP brass and he doesn't want to buy brass that's appropriate to what he wants to accomplish.

[TruthTellers]

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca

Because Murphy's law is always operative. "Whatever can go wrong, will go wrong."

Admittedly, it's unlikely to happen, but it's possible that you could be killed in an automobile accident an hour after you finish loading up 100 or 500 or 1,000 of those hot .45 ACP loads. Then whoever gets the task of handling your estate (which may or may not be someone who knows anything about firearms) will find a stash of ammunition bearing .45 ACP headstamps. How is that person to know that those are loaded to "Ruger only" +P+++ levels and should not be fired in a regular, run-of-the-mill 1911?

It's just poor practice to load ammunition in cases with the wrong headstamp.

I get that, but then the same case could be made for .45 Super, which is externally the same as .45 ACP, but has Super on the headstamp. I get that ignorant people are dumb people, so it's not out of the realm of possibility that they wouldn't even look at the headstamp and load in a stock 1911 and fire it off.

The same can be said for hot .45 Colt or .44 Special ammo made by Buffalo Bore and other boutique ammo makers that have on their website to never shoot that ammo in certain guns. If we're talking about Murphy's Law then I'm surprised people aren't bringing this up because while warnings on printed on the boxes, people will still ignore them just like hot handloads, but I don't see anyone suggesting to never buy Buffalo Bore ammo.

I'll take every precaution I can labeling the ammo as intended for use in Ruger revolvers only and if people fail to adhere to that warning, then that's on them.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by TruthTellers

I get that, but then the same case could be made for .45 Super, which is externally the same as .45 ACP, but has Super on the headstamp.

That's why they put headstamps on ammunition. That's why +P ammunition is stamped "+P".

[Mr.RevolverGuy]

If you want to have fun with a 45 revolver look up autorim and get you some heavy freedom pills. These were not plus P but I watch one of my loads in a S&W625 supposedly not as strong as a Ruger (conversation for another thread and another day) drop a coyote at 45 yards. He was actually in a tree stand hunting deer but then figured out why he was not seeing any about 6 Yotes wondered by and did not even see or smell him up there. I have seen a Yote shot with 223 at 60 yards and run for 100 yards. This Yote dropped like a sack of rocks dropped off a cliff. Now he did have questionable shot placement LOL as he shot it right behind the ear making a mess of its head. He said he was aiming there yeah right.



If you want 45 fun safely with no possible way to put your fun ammo in your rare or beautiful 1911 look up 45 autorim.

http://www.dayattherange.com/?p=4415 See 45Autorim here

Now are we talking about the right pistol Autorim will fit in a redhawk but it absolutely will not work in a Blackhawk. You will need to have the cyclinder faced on your blackhawk 45acp cylinder to make it work http://buffalobore.net/HandloaderDecJan2012.pdf

[TruthTellers]

.45 Auto Rim will not fit in a Redhawk.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by TruthTellers

.45 Auto Rim will not fit in a Redhawk.

Post #5.

See, I did read it.

[TruthTellers]

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca

Post #5.

See, I did read it.

Post 22 didn't