Stories/examples of .22 being insufficient for SD?

[Eskimo]

Any of you guys know of any stories about self defense with a .22?

[Keltyke]

Pointless. ANY round can be ineffective, given certain conditions. Also, ANY round can be a stopper, given different conditions.

First rule of a gun fight - Bring a gun. A .22 LR in your pocket is a better SD weapon than the .45 ACP sitting on the nightstand.

[Dwight55]

Several years ago, . . . couple locals got into a confrontation in one of the down town watering holes in a local blue collar town.

Both had revolvers, . . . both pulled em, . . . each shot the other guy several times, . . . both died.

Guy who was shot with the .357 died before EMT even got to the bar.

Guy who was shot with the .22 hung on until he was in the ER, . . . but he died too.

Lesson: if you need to shoot someone, . . . shoot em with something that has the "probability" of their becomeing no longer a threat, . . . quickly.

May God bless,
Dwight

[Eskimo]

The lack of response has brought be one step closer to believing that ".22s are insuffecient" is just a load of BS. Everyone seems to say that .22's arent good enough but for some reason, they always fail to give examples.

[Brian Pfleuger]

The lack of response has brought be one step closer to believing that ".22s are insuffecient" is just a load of BS. Everyone seems to say that .22's arent good enough but for some reason, they always fail to give examples.

I could also mean that so few people carry them for self defense that when those numbers are combined with the likelihood of needing ANY gun at all then you are left with very few SD incident involving 22LR.

As an example, if 1% of carries use a 22 and only 1% of carriers ever use their weapons, you are left with only 1% of 1% likely to be a 22.


Bottom Line: If you want to carry a 22 for SD, go right ahead. Why would anyone else care?

[Japle]

In the late '60s my father-in-law was raising pigs on his farm. He had a sow that was rupturing out the back end and had to be destroyed. She weighed about 60 lbs. I volunteered.

I took my Ruger .22 pistol, loaded it with Mini-Mag hollow points and went out to the feed lot. I got in front of her, lined up the sights and plugged her right between the eyes. The shot was followed by a squeal from the pig and the sound of the bullet spinning end-over-end into the east cornfield.

She ran 20 feet or so, shook her head and went back to rooting in the muck.
My next shot was broadside through the lungs. She twitched, but wasn't distracted. The 3rd shot got her behind the ear and she dropped. In a nasty puddle, of course.

Except for a small tear, there was no damage from the 1st shot. It had been perfect, except for my choice of caliber. I didn't bother to open her up to check on the last two. I'd already learned enough.

.22s are for rabbits. Small rabbits.

[mnhntr]

i have shot a couple of tree rats that made it from tree to tree and into their house. if it wont stop a tree rat that weighs in at a whopping 1-2lbs why would you believe it would stop a 250lbs person. common sense tells me not to hunt deer with a daisey red rider.

[raimius]

Any round CAN be effective. Larger rounds are more likely to be effective...and effective faster.

[Musketeer]

The lack of response has brought be one step closer to believing that ".22s are insuffecient" is just a load of BS. Everyone seems to say that .22's arent good enough but for some reason, they always fail to give examples.

Would you trust it to stop a 90# mountain lion?

Why then would you depend on it to stop a 200# meth addict.

I believe the lack of responses you are seeing is because most people do not take this thread seriously but by all means, strap on your .22.

[Atltech]

This is a case for '' size doesn't matter." A well placed .22LR HP in the head & heart will stop anyone.The art of SD is about out smarting an opponent.
I carry a 380 auto as my personal SD weapon because of it's compact size & weight.I keep within reach a Browning Buck Mark .22LR loaded with HP rounds.
1 in the chamber & 10 in the clip.If I can't stop an intruder with the .22LR,I need to hire a guard...

[melchloboo]

Not a SD situation...but a middle school girl here in Florida recently killed a classmate in the hallway with a .22. I do not know the details of the wounds, just that the newspaper reported it was a .22 semi-automatic.

I believe I read that Mossad agents hunted down and used .22 at point blank range on the masterminds of the Munich massacre of Israeli athletes. Perhaps a mix of myth and reality, but supposedly during the cold war the .22 was the weapon of choice for international assassins. It is a very easily silenced round, supposedly.

[mnhntr]

This is a case for '' size doesn't matter." A well placed .22LR HP in the head & heart will stop anyone.The art of SD is about out smarting an opponent.
I carry a 380 auto as my personal SD weapon because of it's compact size & weight.I keep within reach a Browning Buck Mark .22LR loaded with HP rounds.
1 in the chamber & 10 in the clip.If I can't stop an intruder with the .22LR,I need to hire a guard...

really what about the Reagan assassination attempt? how many people got shot with a 22lr and didnt die. i have seen many gunshots over the years in my job and the only 22lr deaths that were even close to immediate were in the mouth self inflicted. not long ago i picked up a guy shot in the chest from 7 feet away with a 9mm fmj that hit a rib on his side and followed the rib stopping just under his pectoral muscle. SIZE DOES MATTER. you may trust your life to a 380 but i will stick to somthing bigger.

[Eskimo]

As usual, I see a lot of people being rude and hostile just because someone mentions .22 for self-defense. Lots of hot air on a subject that usually goes on pure hearsay..

I still don't see a single self defense example. : )

[Glenn E. Meyer]

There are web pages that document self defense and LEO uses of guns. Clayton Cramer, the NRA, Chris Bird, Evan Marshall - and others do this. The North American Arms folks have stories of using their 22 minis for self-defense.

A search might be useful. You can clearly come up with folks who used 22s for self-defense. So that's not an issue.

What is the point - the endless debate about stopping power?

[omkhan]

A friend of mine here used his .22 short revolver long time back. He used to live alone in the house when he saw some movements in the back & side yards of his 600 sq. yards home. He could see two men trying to sneak up in the bed room window. Shot a fire & missed the BGs head by a couple of inches. Shot a couple of times again outside the window in their direction. Went into the washroom to call the police & reload. Police arrived after 15 mins or so. The BGs had fled long ago. People outside witnessed "seven" robbers exiting the home. He was very lucky that no BG fired back & he wasn't ambushed by other BGs from some other entrance.

BTW he was very happy that he didnt kill or injured any BG otherwise he was sure that his "buddies" might have come back for revenge.

[Double Naught Spy]

The lack of response has brought be one step closer to believing that ".22s are insuffecient" is just a load of BS. Everyone seems to say that .22's arent good enough but for some reason, they always fail to give examples.

If you are going to base your research and the validity of the results from the responses here and arrive at the conclusion that because you aren't getting definitive answers to the contrary then the .22 is probably sufficient, then you have a poorly designed research plan.

First of all, what do you call "sufficient"? Technically, since most successful firearm use for self defense does not involve pulling the trigger. The mere presence of a firearm and its perceived threat is sufficient for self defense, even when the gun is unloaded. So caliber doesn't matter one iota at this level and this is the most common use of firearms in self defense!

Another group of people are sufficiently stopped by the mere discharge of a weapon, be it as a warning shot or shot that missed. Once again, caliber isn't an issue. The stop was effectively performed. The threat was mitigated, not neutralized, but mitigated.

Next you have people that do get shot with a given caliber that are psychologically stopped by the impact. Either they turn tail or the drop on the spot (even if the wound doesn't physically make this happen). These are usually soft tissue wounds striking non-vital areas with non-critical wounds. Once again, caliber isn't an issue so much of the damage is still psychological, not physiological.

Next is the level of wounding that does cause critical or life threatening damage, but may not bring quick incapacitation. The wounds are such that the person will be incapacitated if given time to bleed out or sepsis to work. It is at this level that the .22 argument are going to start having merit against them. .22s simply don't do as much damage as larger calibers and are more likely to not bring incapacitation quickly.

Last is the immediate incapacitation. You can look to the one-shot stop database for information here, controversial as it may be. Smaller calibers such as the .22 that are often used do not produce the best results. .25 acp is a poor performer as well. Shot placement is going to be critical and even then, .22s don't always perform well...performing worse than larger calibers.

So it is at these last two levels that the issue of .22 effectiveness is truly critical and it is at these two levels that the fewest actual number of events will be occurring. However, these are the most important events when stopping a person is physiologically critical, not just psychologically critical. Given that the .22 only effects a limited amount of damage compared to larger calibers, do you really want to rely on a .22 to actually perform the necessary physiological stop when larger calibers can do it much better (even if their records are far from perfect)?

Then there is the aspect of ignition system. Rimfire is simply not as reliable of an ignition system as centerfire. So when it comes to self defense reliability when you want your gun to discharge, your chances of that not happening are much greater with a rimfire such as a .22 lr.

[FoMoCowboy]

.....i dont know how to quote......but here is what i WANT to quote


"Why then would you depend on it to stop a 200# meth addict."


Since when to meth addicts weigh 200lbs?

[Adrian]

Originally Posted by FoMoCowboy

.....i dont know how to quote......but here is what i WANT to quote

Use {quote} and {/quote}, exchanging the curly brackets for square ones. If you want to include the name of the person who said it, use {quote="<name goes here>"}{/quote}, like {quote="FoMoCowboy"}.

Originally Posted by FoMoCowboy

"Why then would you depend on it to stop a 200# meth addict."


Since when to meth addicts weigh 200lbs?

That's easy; when they start at 300. =)

[csmsss]

That's easy; when they start at 300. =)

Or when they're carrying your Sony Trinitron!

[Keltyke]

I got in front of her, lined up the sights and plugged her right between the eyes.

You don't know much about pigs. Even a shotgun blast has been known to bounce off the thick skull. You DO know how they stun them for butchering, don't you? A sideways heart shot is best, as you found out.

[coastie24]

Forgive me if im wrong, but I believe I heard on, "The First 48," that the number one leading round of homicide is the .22.

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want to be on the wrong side of a .17 let alone a .22.

[Musketeer]

You can kill a person with a slingshot, paperclip, pencil, and a cherry pit. That does not make any of them the best, or even suitable, choice for the job given other options being available.

I will agree that the .22 is a good weapon for self defense given the availability of other cartridges in concealable firearms when you can show me ONE law enforcement agency which advocates that caliber for carry.

How about simply finding one serious hunter that advocates using the .22 LR for larger game like deer?

The .22 at its best is an available self defense option.

[Brian Pfleuger]

the number one leading round of homicide is the .22.

I don't think that's a valid comparison. Many homicides are perpetrated against an unsuspecting victim who is, for example, sleeping (or otherwise unaware or defenseless). Also, homicides are not "shoot two times COM and see if they stop" situations. Because some scumbag can sneak up on a sleeping person and put a 22 bullet in their head hardly justifies the use of that cartridge for legitimate SD purposes.

Turn the tables, if someone was intent on making YOU the victim of homicide and they were using a 22, is the cartridge you'd want to return fire with a 22?

[csmsss]

I wouldn't necessarily want to be on the wrong end of a thrown rock, but that doesn't mean I'm going to keep a pocket full of rocks for self defense either.

A factor to consider when you're quoting statistics - how many of those homicides committed with .22LR firearms were done with rifles and not tiny pocket pistols? Because that's the only SD context where the 22 has an advantage over any other cartridge commonly used for defense - concealability.

One other point - we all know how important shot placement is - yet that is the hugest compromise you'll make in a pocket pistol - the sights tend to be crude, the pistol doesn't tend to fit comfortably in the hand, and the sight radius miniscule. Throw in the adrenaline rush you'll be in the full throes of, and tell me how accurate you'll be.

You know, we can each of us buy and carry whatever the hell we wish to use, and if something in .22LR is what floats your boat, fine - but it is a grave mistake to suggest that it is a highly suitable cartridge for the task, at least from a terminal ballistics perspective.

If I had only a .22LR to defend myself with, would I use it? Sure. Would I wish I had something more substantial? You know it.

[tjhands]

As usual, I see a lot of people being rude and hostile just because someone mentions .22 for self-defense. Lots of hot air on a subject that usually goes on pure hearsay..

I don't think you're actually seeking knowledge here. You had already concluded that one of the smallest caliber available is plenty potent for you. This is purely a baiting thread. It's more than a little sad on a number of levels, but I guess I hope you're having fun with it.