Unpopular Calibers

[roy reali]

I do mean caliber, not cartridge. I am talking about bullet diameter, not the brass case that launches it.

Why do you all suppose some calibers haven't done well in America? 22 and 30 caliber cartridges and rifles seem wildly popular. I bet just about everyone on this forum had at least one gun in one of these calibers in their home. Espically if you count the rimfire shooters.

Thirty-Five caliber seems to be barely hanging on. If it wasn't for some .35 Remington rifles this caliber would be about gone. The .35 Whelen hasn't caught on even when some newer rfile where chambered for it. Cartridges in 6.5mm (.264) don't seem to go anywhere either. This one I can't figure out. For most American deer hunting this would be ideal.

Why do you think that some calibers do not seem to catch on?

[T. O'Heir]

"...Why do you think that some calibers do not seem to catch on?..." Not enough marketing. .35's don't do anything a .30 cal won't do either. Sometimes it's because the calibre wasn't invented Stateside too.

[JP Sarte]

My opinion is that a lot of these calibers had competition that were simply better. Not just in marketing (as was the case in 1955 with with the .243 Winchester versus the .244 Remington - later known as the 6mm Remington). Winchester simply did a much better job at marketing their product even though the two calibers are almost identical in every way. Both are basically 6mm.

Rifle selection seems to matter as well. Take the .243 Winchester again. It was chambered in the very popular Model 70. Even by that time that model already had an almost mythical reputation. Remington had it's own version of it's "name brand" rifle during that period (Model 721-722 series). It could hardly compete.

Other issues may hinge on the proprietary nature of rifles and ammuniton sales. Take Weatherby for example. I would not buy a .300 Weatherby Magnum when the .300 Winchester Magnum will have basically the same performance (give or take) without the 30% increase in ammunition costs (assuming you don't reload) associated with the Weatherby name. Most of it being hype.

I read an article once talking about African guides in the 1960's-1970's. The guides that were questioned basically said if a man hunted with them and carried a Weatherby rifle they (the guides) knew he had no clue what he was doing. Suggesting purchases made on name recognition and marketing hype alone. True? I am not sure. But the guides said it.

I personally believe that America's love affair with the .30 caliber class is largely a legacy of the old 30.06 Springfield. i.e. "If it was good enough for Grandpa it is good enough for me". Outside of excellent performance, why would one see so many variations of this caliber? My favorite is the .308 Win.

I agree with T. O'Heir as well. I think shells like the 6.5x55 Sweede didn't really gain popularity in the United States until large numbers of surplus rifles began appearing here after World War II. Although I believe it to be an excellent caliber (and the Swedes have been taking Moose cleanly with it for years) the lack of commercially manufactured shells and rifles hindered it's acceptance here.

Finally, I think it boils down to our culture and how we think about hunting. Who would select a .264Win Mag when a .270 Winchester would do the trick just as well. All this along with the life long endorsement of somebody like Jack O'Connor? Not me.



JP

[taylorce1]

One of the most important things to survival of the a caliber/cartridge in the United States is if it was a military round or not. Just look at the .45-70, .30-06, .308, and the .223 of course those are cartridges but they all so improve the chances of a calibers survival. Just look at the .45-70 for example that round almost died out but with modern powders and modern rifle makers like Marlin have brought the cartridge back from the brink.

Bullet availability is another look at the 8mm for example how many successful cartridges in the US have came out based on this caliber? Sure you have the 8mm Rem Mag (pretty much dead) and the .325 WSM (to new to tell) but truthfully the bullet selection for the magnums in this caliber is still horrible and you are better off stick with the old 8X57.

Then you get a caliber like the .277 better known as the .270 Win and have a well respected/famous outdoors man and writer champion the caliber. Then you only need one cartridge to make it be successful. Of course the is there .270 WBY and .270 WSM being chambered, but .270 Win has probably had the least amount of competition in its dominance of that caliber.

Truthfully though pretty much every caliber from .177 on up is still alive and doing well at some hand loaders bench. Plus calibers that are popular in the US are not as popular in other parts of the world. Look at the .311 caliber for example, never extremely popular in the United States but has a loyal following in Europe, Canada, Australia and Africa as the .303 Brit.

[Mike Irwin]

Re the .243 vs. the .244, Remington really screwed the pooch early on with that one, and it was more than just marketing. Remington pushed the living hell out of the .244, but Winchester's designers realized that hunters want a multipurpose cartridge - varmint and deer-class critters - not just a varmint cartridge, which is what Remington delivered.

By the time Remington finally decided that American hunters did know what they wanted, it was 8 years later and too late for the renamed 6mm to cut seriously into the .243's lead.

As for the .30-caliber? Yep, the Spanish-American War and two World Wars really helped Americans develop the mindset that .30 caliber was the AMERICAN caliber.

Cartridges like the .30-30 Winchester and .300 Savage certainly didn't hurt, either.

The 6.5s and 8mms? For a long time they were seen as foreign military calibers, cheap, ugly military rifles that Grandpa brought back from whatever war he was in because he took it from the defeated enemy. What did he use to defeat the enemy? Why a .30 caliber AMERICAN cartridge, of course!

That's a real pity, too, because rounds like the 6.5 Arisaka, 6.5 Swedish Mauser, and 8mm Mauser are really, really good cartridges.

[Sidetracked]

Unpopular caliber... check out 9.3mm (.366").

Popular in Europe and Asia... Almost unheard of in the states.

And, as mentioned already- 8mm (.323"). Without the flood of surplus rifles, 8mm Rem, and recent introduction of the 325 WSM... most of the gun-owning population wouldn't even know it was a standard caliber.

[BillCA]

I have to agree with Taylorce1 on this. This same effect translates over to handguns as well. The calibers that are most popular today are typically those which are Military or Police calibers.

Americans typically enjoy shooting "legendary" cartridges and those they are familiar with were made popular by either wars (.30-40, .30-06, .308, .223) or by other American history -- the .45-70, .32 Special, .32-20, .30-30, .44-40, .45 Colt, et al. Newer calibers have made their way into the sporting arena like the .243 and .270 but they are always compared to the "venerable" old standbys before being accepted. We might be enjoying a .276 caliber had MacAuthur not insisted the M1 Garand use existing stock of .30-06 Springfield ammo.

I also think Americans are somewhat biased against "metric" cartridges I recall a time in the 70's when there was little interest in the 9mm cartridge. The only American pistols for it were a Colt 1911 and a pair of S&W "service" pistols. The rest were foreign made guns like the High-Power or one of those eye-talian Berettas.

[Webleymkv]

.40-41 caliber doesn't seem to be overly popular. The .38-40, .405 Winchester, .416 Rigby, .416 Remington Magnum, and recently .416 Barret are the only ones that come readily to mind. Likewise, about anything between .45 and .50 is an odball. The only one I can think of is .470 Nitro.

[Lawyer Daggit]

I agree with Taylorforce. 6.5mm is popular in Scandanavia because it was a Swedish army round. Similar here (Australia) with the .308 and 5.56 / .223 and in US with .556/.223, .308, 30-06 and 45/70.

[Arabia]

It all depends on what the military used in the respective country. In this Country its the .30 caliber, and the .22. In other countries it was something else. Now with the more open global market, firearms in calibers that were once only seen in remote parts of the world are now flooding into new markets. We see a rising popularity of the 6.5mm in this country. This is brought on with the availability of foreign guns makes that where never seen in great numbers in this country. Also countries are off loading their old surplus rifles and ammo to us in great numbers to clear their warehouses. This is also help make certain European calibers more popular in this country. With this popularity domestic gun manufactures have started making firearms in calibers never offered before. Granted the .22 and .30 are still the preferred calibers in this nation. And probably always will be.

[.300H&H]

The .300H&H is argueably better than the .300 Win. in some resepects ie. initially flatter and more efficient...but Win.made a brilliant business decision by creating the .300 Win. and maketing it well. The .300 H&H was as classic as the 30-06, and if the H&H had been just a little more prevalent, in the U.S. ,Win. would not have been able to hijack it.


The .260 and .280 Rems. seem to have had a few marketing problems and one wonders if they would have done better if they were called '7mm Express' or some other such '7mm' distinction.


Seems like the .375 Win. would have lasted longer and been much more successful. I wish it were still around. The 41mag. would have likely been more popular if it had been introduced with a .41 Special like the .357mag/.38.Ironically the .40 S&W became very popular and sorta shows that there was a demand for such .41Special ballistic performance.


I would like to see a .22 or .25 centerfire pistol cartridge ie. think .257mag.

[Mike Irwin]

"I would like to see a .22 or .25 centerfire pistol cartridge ie. think .257mag."

You mean the monumentally unpopular .22 Remington Jet or the .256 Winchester Magnum?

[.300H&H]

I think the .22 Jet suffered from being a bottle-shaped<necked down>round
- and when the S&W 53 fired<fired both .22 Jet and .22LR> .22LR's, it caused some cylinder binding problems... It was supposed to be a cool long-barreled revolver hunting/varmint round. It was a collaborative effort between Remington and Smith. I hope the collaborative effort between Federal and Ruger on the .327mag. will be much better.

I was thinking more in terms of a .22/.25 that is strait-walled<think longer
centerfire .22/.25>that would be primarily a small-caliber defense round, but could also be used as a small game round.

So many calibers...I realize somebody's already probably done it sometime before...but the wheel and the wheelgun must be reinvented.

[Mike Irwin]

OK, you could start off with something along the lines of the .25-21 Steven case.

That case was about 2.05 inches long, so you'd have to cut it back, say to about the same length, or a little longer, than the .357, say, 1.3 inches.

That would give you a usable case capacity of... just guessing, maybe 12 grains maximum of a moderate burning, dense powder like AA 5... but probably closer to 10 grains.

With a bullet in the 60 grain weight range, I suspect you'd get about 1,400 to 1,600 pfs maximum.

Congratulations, I think we've just reinvented the .25-20.

[22-rimfire]

I'm still waiting to see what happens with most of the short magnums. They technically are better than their longer name-sake, but there are so many guns chambered for the older calibers for something like the 270 or 300 WSM to make much of an impact. The 325WSM could be an exception or maybe "should" be one of the exceptions.

Rifles in 5mm will begin to appear in the next 12 months. We'll see if it the same fate as it did back in the 1970's. The CZ chambering should be the first one to hit retail. Back when I was poorer, I dismissed the caliber as I didn't have a need. I'm older now and "need" has little to do with it and I will probably scoop up one of the CZ's chambered in 5mm. Looking forward to it actually.

Military use of a particular caliber is most important single reason for the success of a given caliber. Good examples are the 223, 308, and 30-06; no I didn't forget about the 45-70. The 223 has little over the 222 for all practical purposes. Without the military, I doubt it would exist today. The 308 is not all that different from a number of other calibers. But the 30-06 probably would have made it even if the military didn't use it in WWII.

I like some of the odd calibers. I'm a 41 mag and 480 Ruger fan. I always believed that the 40 S&W would be popular when I first learned about it.

[jhgreasemonkey]

While I am a loyal 30-06 fan I wonder why the good .35's didnt catch on. Like the .35 whelen, .358 win mag, .350 rem mag. All of these calibers seem to be a logical medium bore step up in power from the small bore 30-06 and similar calibers. I think one reason is that the ever popular .338 win mag pretty much dominates this catagory in most areas.

[Scorch]

I am not sure why some calibers seem to make it and others wither on the vine. Certainly, it has something to do with military and police use, but I think there is more to it than that. Is there a champion for the caliber, like the 270 Winchester? Is there an overwhelming advantage to the caliber? And has the "pond been poisoned", as in the 8mm? 6.5mm seems to be having a resurgence in popularity with the mtch shooters getting on board.

[Jimro]

the .260 and .280 Rems. seem to have had a few marketing problems and one wonders if they would have done better if they were called '7mm Express' or some other such '7mm' distinction.

You know that Remington DID rebrand the 280 Rem as the 7mm Express?

But you can't call the 7mm bore unpopular because of the 7mm Rem Mag, 7mm-08, 7x57, 7-30 Waters, 7mm WSM, 7mm Wby and 7mm RUM.

The 9.3 is really lonely, with only the 9.3x62, 9.3x72 and 9.3x64 Brenneke left as the surviving members. Although Col Askins did create a wildcat by necking down the 375 H&H and calling it the "366 Askins".

Jimro

[tplumeri]

Thirty-Five caliber seems to be barely hanging on. If it wasn't for some .35 Remington rifles this caliber would be about gone.

just rec'd 200 rounds of 35wsl that i had to have custom made. specific for 1905 winchester semi auto carbine. 35wsl didnt offer much advantage over existing ammo and when other manufacturers started making comparable semi auto rifles in "standard" sizes it just faded away. last manufactured in 1975.

tom

[.300H&H]

Some go from very popular to unpopular ie. the 16ga. and .32 LR.

The .350 Rem. has tried in vain to become popular. The 8mm Rem...

I'm amazed the 444 Marlin has remained so popular.

The .41 Rem.Mag. seems to be fading away.

Some look better in retrospect ie. the .357 Maximum and 6mm Rem.

How much is to be blamed on the cartridge and how much is to be blamed on poor or untimely marketing?

Some pop seemingly out of the blue - and become very popular and seemingly very quickly ie. the .40 S&W and .28ga.

Some cartridges seem to be invulnerable to market changes ie. the .30-.30
and the .30-06...and the .22 LR. Amazing that the lowly rimfire is the King of Popularity ie. seems like a cheap little centerfire should have replaced it long ago...but I guess it's so dirt cheap it will always be the King of Popularity.

[milemission]

In rifles, there used to be a .20 caliber, (5mm) that never caught on and likely never will. The 8mm is languishing. The .25s, while not dead, aren't really popular, and are being outdone by the 6.5s at the moment (.007 bigger and offering bullets up to 40 grains heavier, and will do everything and more that a .25 can). The 9.3 is so unpopular than there are probably many 'gun-nuts' that have never heard of it in the United States. The .416 is also not very popular in the States, as the .375 and .458 are less expensive and just as powerful. Of course, anything bigger than the .50 BMG (such as the .577, .600, and .700 nitro expresses) haven't really caught on due to sheer expense.

[MeekAndMild]

A number of reasons. Military standard is why .308 is more popular than the British 311 and all the metrics. Outdoor writers, specifically Jack O'Connor of the last century is why .270 is more popular than .260 or .280. Cartridge company competition is why .243 or 6mm is more popular than .25 and why .338 is more so than .35. Evolution from black powder loads may be why .22 is more popular than .20, .21 or .23.

My 2 cents.

[skinewmexico]

Because Americans are such herd animals. They shoot whatever caliber, and brand, their granddad shot.

[22-rimfire]

Most callibers above 338 win mag are speciality calibers with few buyers and shooters. You know anyone other than 375H&H here who just heads out to the range to blast away with a 375 or 416 or 460 weatherby? Even if I owned one, I would only shoot it when I had to.

there used to be a .20 caliber, (5mm) that never caught on and likely never will.

I'm hoping you're wrong on that prediction.

[gak]

Seems like the .375 Win. would have lasted longer and been much more successful. I wish it were still around. The 41mag. would have likely been more popular if it had been introduced with a .41 Special like the .357mag/.38.Ironically the .40 S&W became very popular and sorta shows that there was a demand for such .41Special ballistic performance.

I think the .40 S&W especially is popular in that it filled the gap nicely in size/capacity/ballistics between .38/.357/9mm and .44/.45. As you pointed out, a .41 Special would have also, ...but in the auto world the .40 did it. In the revolver world, apparently in the Old West .38-40 or .38 WCF, actually a .40 cal., while relatively popular, was too close in folks minds vs the already established .45 (and then .44-40 or .44 WCF). If shooters wanted something milder than a .44/45, they chose the .32-20. Those that have shot the .38-40 it say it's an excellent cartridge/caliber and one of the sweetest and most accurate rounds in a Colt SAA - and with the medium bore balances the gun quite nicely.