Why not a 220gr in my .308?

Tomas · March 18, 2008, 09:12 PM

I have a Weatherby Vanguard .308 that has been an elk killer and wonderfully accurate rifle for me. I also like to play around with handloads. A while back, I was told that because the rifle is a 1:12 twist, it couldn't stabilize a 220gr bullet.

Strange, as his comment suggested that such a bullet would be wholly inaccurate in this rifle, and that only a 1:10 twist might work. Well, being the hard-headed neanderthal that I am, I loaded some up over 39gr of 748 and march off to the range and print sub MOA groups at 100 and 200 yards both. Seems like this may make a nice grizzly or elk load after all. Mr. smarty pants maybe ain't so smart after all.

Given the above, why the heck shouldn't I load up some big 'ole 220s?

Seriously, is there any real reason I shouldn't???? It shoots them well, they didn't key-hole, and the brass exhibited no signs of pressure.

Interested in any comments, for or against.

Tom

elkman06 · March 18, 2008, 09:24 PM

While I too like to play around w/ different loads, I fail to see the need for a 220 round in your .308. I have not shot any of the great bears, and nothing north of Wyoming, I've used either 150gr or 180 up to and including moose. I'm definitely a fan of using one round, one gun. I believe it lends to my being accurate. I would think jumping all the way to a 220gr would have you totally changing your sight picture/methodology. I like knowing how a particular rifle shoots to the point where I don't have to think about which round/how to hold. But, hey, it's your rifle, knock yourself out.
elkman06

Prince55 · March 18, 2008, 09:35 PM

I've often wondered about the 220 gr. in the .308. I have a .30-06 and
haven't tried them in it.
I don't own a .308, but seems like you've found the answer.
They're close behind the .30-06 and very accurate.
Sounds like some pretty good shooting.

Keep it up.

ndking1126 · March 18, 2008, 09:38 PM

Was the recoil noticeably different? I'm just curious as I have no real experience to offer... unless we could consider extra recoil.

tyrajam · March 18, 2008, 10:12 PM

Bigger and slower can be better than smaller and faster. Wasn't it Jack O'conner who said the ideal elk load is a camp stove at 2500fps?

Jimro · March 18, 2008, 10:54 PM

You are going to get good penetration with a 220 grain bullet from a 308. But you might not have enough velocity for good expansion.

From a lethality standpoint on big game, accuracy is more important than penetration is more important than expansion, at least according one school of thought.

Since you already have accuracy and the penetration of a heavy pill, I wouldn't worry too much about expansion.

Jimro

sasquatch · March 18, 2008, 11:17 PM

A 220 gr. .308 slug has about the same BC as a Volkswagen bus.

somerled · March 18, 2008, 11:36 PM

What is the velocity of those 220 grainers? I have data for them in the .30-06.

**44 AMP** · March 19, 2008, 12:22 AM

Is that 220gr is a waste in .308, because you have to seat the bullet so deeply that you can't get full velocity potential because the bullet takes up too much of the powder space.

Not that you can't use them, just that the maximum performance you can get out of them is less than optimal, and less than other calibers (like .30-06)

Oddly enough, nobody seems to say that about the .30-40 Krag. Now the Krag (in the Krag rifles) is limited to about 2100fps with the 220gr bullet, and a .308 ought to be able to beat that by a couple of hundred fps.

Other than the recoil, and the fact that long range trajectory isn't going to be as good as a lighter more pointed bullet, what's not to like?

Back before the dawn of electronically recorded history I got to play with some .30 US ARMY marked .30-40 Krag ammo, and it had 220gr RN FMJ bullets. That stuff would penetrate trees the thickness of which you would have to have seen to believe it. Feet. As in more than one. Incredible.

If you are shooting 220gr .308 from a short barrel gun, you will be very close to the old Krag load. Of course, soft points don't do quite what FMJ does.

Buzzcook · March 19, 2008, 01:43 AM

I think the slow twist deal is more important in the very short barrel carbines such as the M4. With a 20"+ barrel it is not as big a problem.
But that's just a guess.
1-12 turns does seem a might slow for a .30 cal. 1-10 seems to be more of the norm from my experience.

I don't see any reason not to use heavy bullets if that's what works for you.

I'm also guessing you're getting around 2,200fps

Swampy1 · March 19, 2008, 07:36 AM

Tomas,

If it works for you, then it's not wrong..... However, the guy who told you that a 220 grain bullet won't work in a 1-12" twist is generally correct.

You just got lucky with your particular rifle and the particular bullet you are using. Change to a different brand or style of 220 grainer and you might lose on the bet.... same deal with your current loads and different rifle with a 1-12" twist.

Bullets are generally given a "minimum twist" rating due to their caliber/weight/length relationship that gets you a pretty much 100% chance of good stabilization. Most 210-220 grain .30 cal bullets are rated for a 1-10" twist. Go up to a 1-11" or 1-12" and you start running the chance that you lose on the stability equation. Again, in your particular rifle with the bullet you are using... it works, and that's all the justification you need. Go for it.

Best regards,
Swampy

Sarge · March 19, 2008, 09:36 AM

Quote:

44AMP:

Back before the dawn of electronically recorded history I got to play with some .30 US ARMY marked .30-40 Krag ammo, and it had 220gr RN FMJ bullets. That stuff would penetrate trees the thickness of which you would have to have seen to believe it.

Same here. Also back before our collective obsession with velocity, beaucoup big game was killed quite handily with medium-bore rifles pushing long, heavy bullets at just over 2200 fps. They bored straight, deep holes and the bullets didn't break up when they hit a bone or two. Bullet technology has allowed lighter bullets to gain some ground on these loads, but the heavies are still just as good as they ever were.

I have a Savage 99 in .308 and am going to try some heavies in it soon.

While a given twist's performance with a particular weight bullet is predictable to a degree, this is by no means carved in stone. We have a .50 Hawken with a 1:66 twist and 'conventional wisdom' says it shouldn't shoot heavy conicals for sour apples. Evidently this particular barrel didn't get that memo, because it will plunk three, 385 grain Great Plains bullets into 3" at 100 yards.

Bottom line is "You don't know until you try it." If heavies in the .308 are your bag, and you're getting excellent accuracy and no pressure signs, more power to you. I've got 20 bucks that says no big game animal you shoot through the shoulders with it will complain, because you didn't use a lighter bullet.

PS- Get a copy of Metallic Cartridge Reloading for lots of good ".308 heavy-bullet" load data.

Art Eatman · March 19, 2008, 10:10 AM

Historically, the 220-grain bullets in thirty caliber were intended for deep penetration on larger animals. Bear and moose, primarily.

Modern bullet design allows the same performance, today, from 180-grain bullets. Basically, it has become a "Why bother...?" thing.

Bolosniper · March 19, 2008, 11:06 AM

Tomas,

If it works for you, then it's not wrong..... However, the guy who told you that a 220 grain bullet won't work in a 1-12" twist is generally correct.

You just got lucky with your particular rifle and the particular bullet you are using. Change to a different brand or style of 220 grainer and you might lose on the bet.... same deal with your current loads and different rifle with a 1-12" twist.

Bullets are generally given a "minimum twist" rating due to their caliber/weight/length relationship that gets you a pretty much 100% chance of good stabilization. Most 210-220 grain .30 cal bullets are rated for a 1-10" twist. Go up to a 1-11" or 1-12" and you start running the chance that you lose on the stability equation. Again, in your particular rifle with the bullet you are using... it works, and that's all the justification you need. Go for it.

Best regards,
Swampy
__________________
Pres-CEO Swampworks Inc. / JLK Bullets http://www.swampworks.com
The difference between a Hot Dog and a Weenie is a very fine line.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity.

I don't have to tell you "Good answer, and the correct one to the question asked", as you already know that.

MacGille · March 19, 2008, 12:51 PM

While your barrel might stabilize a 220 gr. bullet at 100-200 yd, The bullet might well destabilize at longer ranges when velocity dwindles. It may well wobble at 400 yd, and even keyhole farther out. I don't KNOW that this will happen but I have read about long bullets destabilizing at long range. It seems to me that with modern bullet technology, the 180 gr. will do everything that a 220 gr. will do. And it will have the advantage of fitting your barrels twist rate. Just a thought.

March 18, 2008, 09:12 PM	#1
Tomas Senior Member Join Date: May 10, 1999 Location: Blue State Posts: 441	Why not a 220gr in my .308? I have a Weatherby Vanguard .308 that has been an elk killer and wonderfully accurate rifle for me. I also like to play around with handloads. A while back, I was told that because the rifle is a 1:12 twist, it couldn't stabilize a 220gr bullet. Strange, as his comment suggested that such a bullet would be wholly inaccurate in this rifle, and that only a 1:10 twist might work. Well, being the hard-headed neanderthal that I am, I loaded some up over 39gr of 748 and march off to the range and print sub MOA groups at 100 and 200 yards both. Seems like this may make a nice grizzly or elk load after all. Mr. smarty pants maybe ain't so smart after all. Given the above, why the heck shouldn't I load up some big 'ole 220s? Seriously, is there any real reason I shouldn't???? It shoots them well, they didn't key-hole, and the brass exhibited no signs of pressure. Interested in any comments, for or against. Tom

March 19, 2008, 12:22 AM	#9
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 30,516	Conventional wisdom Is that 220gr is a waste in .308, because you have to seat the bullet so deeply that you can't get full velocity potential because the bullet takes up too much of the powder space. Not that you can't use them, just that the maximum performance you can get out of them is less than optimal, and less than other calibers (like .30-06) Oddly enough, nobody seems to say that about the .30-40 Krag. Now the Krag (in the Krag rifles) is limited to about 2100fps with the 220gr bullet, and a .308 ought to be able to beat that by a couple of hundred fps. Other than the recoil, and the fact that long range trajectory isn't going to be as good as a lighter more pointed bullet, what's not to like? Back before the dawn of electronically recorded history I got to play with some .30 US ARMY marked .30-40 Krag ammo, and it had 220gr RN FMJ bullets. That stuff would penetrate trees the thickness of which you would have to have seen to believe it. Feet. As in more than one. Incredible. If you are shooting 220gr .308 from a short barrel gun, you will be very close to the old Krag load. Of course, soft points don't do quite what FMJ does. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

March 18, 2008, 09:24 PM	#2
elkman06 Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2006 Location: Wyoming Posts: 885	While I too like to play around w/ different loads, I fail to see the need for a 220 round in your .308. I have not shot any of the great bears, and nothing north of Wyoming, I've used either 150gr or 180 up to and including moose. I'm definitely a fan of using one round, one gun. I believe it lends to my being accurate. I would think jumping all the way to a 220gr would have you totally changing your sight picture/methodology. I like knowing how a particular rifle shoots to the point where I don't have to think about which round/how to hold. But, hey, it's your rifle, knock yourself out. elkman06

March 18, 2008, 09:35 PM	#3
Prince55 Senior Member Join Date: June 22, 2007 Posts: 472	I've often wondered about the 220 gr. in the .308. I have a .30-06 and haven't tried them in it. I don't own a .308, but seems like you've found the answer. They're close behind the .30-06 and very accurate. Sounds like some pretty good shooting. Keep it up.

March 18, 2008, 09:38 PM	#4
ndking1126 Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2008 Location: Madison, AL Posts: 1,932	Was the recoil noticeably different? I'm just curious as I have no real experience to offer... unless we could consider extra recoil.

March 18, 2008, 10:12 PM	#5
tyrajam Senior Member Join Date: July 24, 2007 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 467	Bigger and slower can be better than smaller and faster. Wasn't it Jack O'conner who said the ideal elk load is a camp stove at 2500fps?

March 18, 2008, 10:54 PM	#6
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	You are going to get good penetration with a 220 grain bullet from a 308. But you might not have enough velocity for good expansion. From a lethality standpoint on big game, accuracy is more important than penetration is more important than expansion, at least according one school of thought. Since you already have accuracy and the penetration of a heavy pill, I wouldn't worry too much about expansion. Jimro

March 18, 2008, 11:17 PM	#7
sasquatch Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2005 Location: Western WA Posts: 1,347	A 220 gr. .308 slug has about the same BC as a Volkswagen bus.

March 18, 2008, 11:36 PM	#8
somerled Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2005 Location: eastern Kansas Posts: 603	What is the velocity of those 220 grainers? I have data for them in the .30-06.

March 19, 2008, 01:43 AM	#10
Buzzcook Senior Member Join Date: November 29, 2007 Location: Everett, WA Posts: 6,126	I think the slow twist deal is more important in the very short barrel carbines such as the M4. With a 20"+ barrel it is not as big a problem. But that's just a guess. 1-12 turns does seem a might slow for a .30 cal. 1-10 seems to be more of the norm from my experience. I don't see any reason not to use heavy bullets if that's what works for you. I'm also guessing you're getting around 2,200fps

March 19, 2008, 07:36 AM	#11
Swampy1 Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2007 Posts: 130	Tomas, If it works for you, then it's not wrong..... However, the guy who told you that a 220 grain bullet won't work in a 1-12" twist is generally correct. You just got lucky with your particular rifle and the particular bullet you are using. Change to a different brand or style of 220 grainer and you might lose on the bet.... same deal with your current loads and different rifle with a 1-12" twist. Bullets are generally given a "minimum twist" rating due to their caliber/weight/length relationship that gets you a pretty much 100% chance of good stabilization. Most 210-220 grain .30 cal bullets are rated for a 1-10" twist. Go up to a 1-11" or 1-12" and you start running the chance that you lose on the stability equation. Again, in your particular rifle with the bullet you are using... it works, and that's all the justification you need. Go for it. Best regards, Swampy

March 19, 2008, 10:10 AM	#13
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	Historically, the 220-grain bullets in thirty caliber were intended for deep penetration on larger animals. Bear and moose, primarily. Modern bullet design allows the same performance, today, from 180-grain bullets. Basically, it has become a "Why bother...?" thing.

March 19, 2008, 11:06 AM	#14
Bolosniper Member Join Date: September 10, 2005 Location: Dillon, Montana Posts: 70	Tomas, If it works for you, then it's not wrong..... However, the guy who told you that a 220 grain bullet won't work in a 1-12" twist is generally correct. You just got lucky with your particular rifle and the particular bullet you are using. Change to a different brand or style of 220 grainer and you might lose on the bet.... same deal with your current loads and different rifle with a 1-12" twist. Bullets are generally given a "minimum twist" rating due to their caliber/weight/length relationship that gets you a pretty much 100% chance of good stabilization. Most 210-220 grain .30 cal bullets are rated for a 1-10" twist. Go up to a 1-11" or 1-12" and you start running the chance that you lose on the stability equation. Again, in your particular rifle with the bullet you are using... it works, and that's all the justification you need. Go for it. Best regards, Swampy __________________ Pres-CEO Swampworks Inc. / JLK Bullets http://www.swampworks.com The difference between a Hot Dog and a Weenie is a very fine line. Never underestimate the power of human stupidity. I don't have to tell you "Good answer, and the correct one to the question asked", as you already know that.

March 19, 2008, 12:51 PM	#15
MacGille Senior Member Join Date: July 7, 2006 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 976	While your barrel might stabilize a 220 gr. bullet at 100-200 yd, The bullet might well destabilize at longer ranges when velocity dwindles. It may well wobble at 400 yd, and even keyhole farther out. I don't KNOW that this will happen but I have read about long bullets destabilizing at long range. It seems to me that with modern bullet technology, the 180 gr. will do everything that a 220 gr. will do. And it will have the advantage of fitting your barrels twist rate. Just a thought.