Legal question on CCW

divemedic · August 21, 2007, 07:57 PM

There are hospitals in the Orlando area that are posted. At ORMC, they have a cop in the lobby and a metal detector. They will not allow weapons in the hospital. There are a few issues here which sparked a healthy debate in my house.

This entire discussion stems from a call I had where a man on a motorcycle was in an accident. He had a weapon on his person, with a valid permit. We had nowhere to secure the weapon for him. The police didn't want it because they said that if we gave it to them, he would probably not see it again. Apparently the sheriff uses "ballistic testing" and other excuses to delay returning firearms.

1 The law states that a person cannot be denied emergency medical care at an emergency room.

2 If you have a permit, you would be in compliance with the law to carry there.

3 Since the law states that they cannot deny you entry, do they have the LEGAL right to deny entry to you if you attempt to enter and receive emergency care while carrying?

4 My son feels like they can take your weapon or deny you entry. I would agree with that if there were a safety concern like sedation or head injury, but if I were there for stitches or chest pain, that is not a factor.

What does the law say about this? Anyone?

P.S.- What we did was this:

I unloaded the weapon and placed it in the glove box of the ambulance. When we got to the hospital, I put it in a bag and left it with the patient. The nurse at the hospital is a member of my rifle club, and he held it without telling the hospital staff until the man's family arrived.

Any one of us could have been disciplined or even fired for what we did. (That includes the Paramedics, Deputies, and Nurses.)

Bruxley · August 21, 2007, 09:47 PM

Inane policies and laws create inane problems. Unfortunately the situation cries for further inane measures.

Why would a hospital feel the need to forbid a permit holder from bearing a firearm?

Why do they NOT have secure storage for a legal firearm for just a contingency? Do they have it for a patient's jewelry, money, or other valuables?

And finally, why do they have a cop in the lobby if the hospital is safe enough to be in unarmed?

Ask a hospital administrator if they are willing to be liable for failing to protect the safety of anyone that may be assaulted in the hospital that is a permit holder but was denied the capacity to defend themselves by hospital policy.
By their policy and their posting security they have taken on that liability.

ZeroJunk · August 21, 2007, 10:07 PM

Hospitals will "lock down" an ER while tending to shooting victims if the circumstances indicate that it could be gang related.There have been incidences where other gang members actually came in to the hospital to try and finish it off.Sit in an ER a few Friday and Saturday nights.You will see some wild stuff.

Let it Bleed · August 21, 2007, 10:26 PM

My guess would be that an ambulatory person would be required to store it prior to admission. If the patient is not ambulatory, then the hospital should secure it like any other personal effects.

Since this question actually affects you, I would advise that you ask for clarification from someone in a supervisory position. You may get an asinine answer with which you don't agree, but you will be CYA from many potentially bad consequences not the least of which may be loss of employment.

Personally, I think what you did made common sense. But you need protection from all sides - the patient, the police, and the hospital.

Good luck!

divemedic · August 21, 2007, 10:50 PM

I do not have a problem taking a weapon from someone who is impaired, like head injuries, low blood sugar, suicidal, threats made, anything that would make the bearer of said weapon a danger to me, my crew, or the public.

When you are injured, you can act irrationally. The last thing you want is to become "cured" and have to live with the fact that you killed someone while you were impaired.

With that being said, I do not want to deprive someone of his or her civil rights. Sometimes it is better to not know the policy and apologize for not knowing than it is to ask what the policy is, and then be forced to make the choice between your job and your principles. Principles are great, but they don't feed my kids.

dmazur · August 22, 2007, 01:12 AM

I agree with the "unload it and store it" practice.

While jewelry is just valuable, with little liability if stolen from the hospital, more and more people are carrying portable computers (or PDA's, which are even smaller). These have identity theft issues if stolen from the hospital.

If I was a hospital administrator, I'd have some type of secure storage and a bonded staff member to manage it. This would at least be a start to the problem of losing items with liability attached to the loss, including firearms.

Pat H · August 22, 2007, 09:26 AM

I would suggest you work with the nurse you mentioned to quietly get the hospital to accommodate this scenario. It's probably been experienced in Florida before, being that Florida was the first state with modern CCW reform laws, it's had the longest period of experience.

Seems to me a simple method of locking the firearm in a safe via a well spelled out procedure similar to what's in place for valuables such as watches and jewelry would be readily adaptable for firearms.

Let it Bleed · August 22, 2007, 01:32 PM

While there is some wisdom in the adage that "it's better to ask forgiveness than to ask permission," that only covers possible disciplinary action by your employer. Basically, if I were in your position, I would want to insure that I am indemnified by my employer against any possible liability.

As you apparently are a health-care worker, I am sure you are well aware that people are not always grateful for the help you provide. And in fact, some can be outright hostile and vindictive.

kayakersteve · August 22, 2007, 02:12 PM

As an Emergency dept physician assistant, we allow officers to carry while there, but ask others to put weapon in a lock box until they are discharged. Not sure if I agree, but that's what is requested. In all liklihood, we have a lot of people pass through the ED armed and we never know because the guns are concealed.

Samurai · August 22, 2007, 02:15 PM

My understanding (keep in mind, I haven't researched this at all!), is that the default action of hospital staff is to turn a firearm over to local law enforcement for storage. This means, if you come into an ER, and you're alone and unconscious, when they find your carry gun, they will give it to the cops, and the cops will take it away. You will then have to go through the long and bureaucratic process of reclaiming it. (This is why it's good to have more than one carry gun, but never to carry them all at once.)

Now, I would bet that if you're conscious and accompanied by a responsible friend or loved one, they will give you the opportunity to give your gun to the person you know. Not sure about this, though...

gordo_gun_guy · August 22, 2007, 02:24 PM

My army doctor friend--not in florida--was saying he heard of trauma patients in FL being refused service because they were incapacitated and couldn't secure their weapon, and the hospital staff would not take responsibility for securing the weapon out of liability concerns. I want to believe it's just a rumor and I wouldn't really be SOL because I was packing when I got run over or something, but I've heard stupider things that turned out to be true....

BTW, this same friend, a gun guy and soldier, keeps low key in the med community--for instance, the AMA uses "statistics" to support gun control, etc....

divemedic · August 22, 2007, 02:30 PM

The law states that they cannot refuse care. I can tell you this: If you have an altered mental status, you WILL receive care, and the cops will get your weapon. I am not arguing that. That is the way it is done.

My question was this: If you are conscious, and attempt to enter the ER for treatment, can the ER legally refuse to allow you to enter for care? Can the police officer legally confiscate your weapon, if you have broken no law, assuming you are mentally competent? Is this a legal search?

Changing the policy of the hospitals is nearly impossible. One of the hospitals involved is the largest chain in the state, and they are NOT going to change the policy. They have "gun busters" signs on every campus.

fastforty · August 22, 2007, 02:58 PM

Our local hospital recently adopted the No Weapons policy too (I have carried there numerous times without a second thought).

Last year, when a full sized pickup truck blew a red light at 50 mph & broadsided us, my wife was taken to ER in an ambulance (I caught a ride with a local PD officer a few minutes later). I went inside & was "greeted" by a rent-a-cop with a wand. I told him that I was carrying, as he was bringing the wand up to assault my privacy. He asked to see my badge (I wonder if one of those hokey CCW badges would have stumped him?). I told him that I was a CCW holder, he asked for & examined my permit. He was clueless what to do, so he called someone. Moments later, two more similar dressed men exited from the door he was blocking and flanked him (this REALLY wasn't looking good, LOL). One of them informed me that I could NOT go into the ER to see my wife while carrying. I went back to the phone (two feet inside of the main entry door, leading to the bullet-proof glass protected admissions desk) and made a call to try to get a family member to come down & secure my weapon. I then went outside for a few minutes & huffed a cigarette. Upon re-entering to use the phone again, the original uniformed person was on me like snot on a rag, informing me that I COULD NOT enter the building for any reason (the nearest phone outside of the hospital is a mile away & oh yeah, my car was turned inside out who-knows-where). Within two minutes of that, a police car pulled up & stopped across the entry doors to the ER (back to not looking good again). When the officer exited his car, he recognized me from the accident scene, greeted me politely & went inside to meet with the RP. Luckily, it was the same cop who brought me to the hospital earlier. We had chatted in the patrol car, so he had already figured out that I wasn't a psycho- not to mention that if I was gonna go postal I probably would have done it at the accident scene. When he came back out he was friendly & offered to secure my weapon so that I could gain entry to the ER. I turned my strongside toward him, unclipped and slid out my IWB holster and handed it to him intact. He started to stow it in his vehicle, then handed it back to me, asking that I unload it first (yeah, right out in broad daylight in front of the ER). I turned so that he had a full view of my *straight* trigger finger, pointed the holster in a safe direction, at the ground ahead of my feet and removed the weapon from the holster. With my finger straight along the frame rail, I removed the magazine and handed it to him. I then locked the slide back, capturing the chambered round in my support hand and handed it to him as well. He was ready to take the weapon at that time, but I did not offer it to him as the unloading procedure was not yet complete. I slipped my supportside middle finger deep into the magwell and moved it freely from front to back. I then transferred the weapon to my supportside hand and inserted my strongside pinky finger into the open action, plugging it firmly into the empty chamber (upon removing that finger, it bore evidence of an empty chamber by exhibiting a black circle around the tip). I then offered the weapon to the officer, who grinned & said "are you SURE it's unloaded?". To which I responded "Absolutely certain" (as I kept it pointed in a safe direction while handing it to him). After the ER drama was over, I stopped by the police department and my weapon was returned without any delay.

But yeah, we are starting to see FAR too many "Gun Free" zones :barf:

TheBluesMan · August 22, 2007, 03:13 PM

Good story, fastforty. Thanks for sharing it.

I hope your wife was okay.

-Dave

divemedic · August 22, 2007, 04:15 PM

While I admit that to be a good story, it makes my point. Many political appointees (police chiefs, fire chiefs, and other Chief Executives of local Govt) are servants of the libs who appoint them, and serve completely at the pleasure of the appointer. They are (mostly) GFW's, as evidenced by the support of the Police Chiefs for more gun bans.

Most rank and file cops, firefighters, nurses, doctors, and others (at least around here) are gunnies. If one of us finds out about a weapon, and we do not take it (read "confiscate") we are gonna be in BIG trouble. The deputies in my incident, had they taken possession of the weapon, would have turned it into the office, and the owner would never have seen it again.

Pat H · August 22, 2007, 06:43 PM

divemedic, what you say is correct, most rank and file cops are pro-gun owners rights as long as you are law abiding.

The issue, for them, becomes what is the law. If the law becomes gun registration, magazine limits, black gun bans; then those bastions of gun owner rights seem to change. Naturally, when the state attorney general or the mayor of a city, comes to them and tells them that failure to enforce the laws restricting gun owner right will jeapardize their retirement or employment opportunities, one can understand their position.

August 21, 2007, 07:57 PM	#1
divemedic Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2006 Posts: 1,310	Legal question on CCW There are hospitals in the Orlando area that are posted. At ORMC, they have a cop in the lobby and a metal detector. They will not allow weapons in the hospital. There are a few issues here which sparked a healthy debate in my house. This entire discussion stems from a call I had where a man on a motorcycle was in an accident. He had a weapon on his person, with a valid permit. We had nowhere to secure the weapon for him. The police didn't want it because they said that if we gave it to them, he would probably not see it again. Apparently the sheriff uses "ballistic testing" and other excuses to delay returning firearms. 1 The law states that a person cannot be denied emergency medical care at an emergency room. 2 If you have a permit, you would be in compliance with the law to carry there. 3 Since the law states that they cannot deny you entry, do they have the LEGAL right to deny entry to you if you attempt to enter and receive emergency care while carrying? 4 My son feels like they can take your weapon or deny you entry. I would agree with that if there were a safety concern like sedation or head injury, but if I were there for stitches or chest pain, that is not a factor. What does the law say about this? Anyone? P.S.- What we did was this: I unloaded the weapon and placed it in the glove box of the ambulance. When we got to the hospital, I put it in a bag and left it with the patient. The nurse at the hospital is a member of my rifle club, and he held it without telling the hospital staff until the man's family arrived. Any one of us could have been disciplined or even fired for what we did. (That includes the Paramedics, Deputies, and Nurses.)

August 22, 2007, 02:12 PM	#9
kayakersteve Senior Member Join Date: March 17, 2007 Location: Western NY Posts: 925	Where I work As an Emergency dept physician assistant, we allow officers to carry while there, but ask others to put weapon in a lock box until they are discharged. Not sure if I agree, but that's what is requested. In all liklihood, we have a lot of people pass through the ED armed and we never know because the guns are concealed.

August 22, 2007, 03:13 PM	#14
TheBluesMan Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 15, 1999 Location: Ohio Posts: 7,558	Good story, fastforty. Thanks for sharing it. I hope your wife was okay. -Dave __________________ -Dave Miller ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ! NRA Certified Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Personal Protection. Tick-off Obama - Join the NRA Today - Save $10

August 21, 2007, 09:47 PM	#2
Bruxley Senior Member Join Date: April 27, 2007 Posts: 1,462	Inane policies and laws create inane problems. Unfortunately the situation cries for further inane measures. Why would a hospital feel the need to forbid a permit holder from bearing a firearm? Why do they NOT have secure storage for a legal firearm for just a contingency? Do they have it for a patient's jewelry, money, or other valuables? And finally, why do they have a cop in the lobby if the hospital is safe enough to be in unarmed? Ask a hospital administrator if they are willing to be liable for failing to protect the safety of anyone that may be assaulted in the hospital that is a permit holder but was denied the capacity to defend themselves by hospital policy. By their policy and their posting security they have taken on that liability.

August 21, 2007, 10:07 PM	#3
ZeroJunk Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2006 Location: Browns Summit NC Posts: 2,589	Hospitals will "lock down" an ER while tending to shooting victims if the circumstances indicate that it could be gang related.There have been incidences where other gang members actually came in to the hospital to try and finish it off.Sit in an ER a few Friday and Saturday nights.You will see some wild stuff.

August 21, 2007, 10:26 PM	#4
Let it Bleed Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Location: South Carolina Posts: 534	My guess would be that an ambulatory person would be required to store it prior to admission. If the patient is not ambulatory, then the hospital should secure it like any other personal effects. Since this question actually affects you, I would advise that you ask for clarification from someone in a supervisory position. You may get an asinine answer with which you don't agree, but you will be CYA from many potentially bad consequences not the least of which may be loss of employment. Personally, I think what you did made common sense. But you need protection from all sides - the patient, the police, and the hospital. Good luck!

August 21, 2007, 10:50 PM	#5
divemedic Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2006 Posts: 1,310	I do not have a problem taking a weapon from someone who is impaired, like head injuries, low blood sugar, suicidal, threats made, anything that would make the bearer of said weapon a danger to me, my crew, or the public. When you are injured, you can act irrationally. The last thing you want is to become "cured" and have to live with the fact that you killed someone while you were impaired. With that being said, I do not want to deprive someone of his or her civil rights. Sometimes it is better to not know the policy and apologize for not knowing than it is to ask what the policy is, and then be forced to make the choice between your job and your principles. Principles are great, but they don't feed my kids.

August 22, 2007, 01:12 AM	#6
dmazur Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2007 Location: Pacific NW Posts: 1,310	I agree with the "unload it and store it" practice. While jewelry is just valuable, with little liability if stolen from the hospital, more and more people are carrying portable computers (or PDA's, which are even smaller). These have identity theft issues if stolen from the hospital. If I was a hospital administrator, I'd have some type of secure storage and a bonded staff member to manage it. This would at least be a start to the problem of losing items with liability attached to the loss, including firearms.

August 22, 2007, 09:26 AM	#7
Pat H Junior member Join Date: July 21, 2007 Location: Travelers Rest, South Carolina Posts: 1,039	I would suggest you work with the nurse you mentioned to quietly get the hospital to accommodate this scenario. It's probably been experienced in Florida before, being that Florida was the first state with modern CCW reform laws, it's had the longest period of experience. Seems to me a simple method of locking the firearm in a safe via a well spelled out procedure similar to what's in place for valuables such as watches and jewelry would be readily adaptable for firearms.

August 22, 2007, 01:32 PM	#8
Let it Bleed Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Location: South Carolina Posts: 534	While there is some wisdom in the adage that "it's better to ask forgiveness than to ask permission," that only covers possible disciplinary action by your employer. Basically, if I were in your position, I would want to insure that I am indemnified by my employer against any possible liability. As you apparently are a health-care worker, I am sure you are well aware that people are not always grateful for the help you provide. And in fact, some can be outright hostile and vindictive.

August 22, 2007, 02:15 PM	#10
Samurai Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2001 Location: Knoxville, TN Posts: 901	My understanding (keep in mind, I haven't researched this at all!), is that the default action of hospital staff is to turn a firearm over to local law enforcement for storage. This means, if you come into an ER, and you're alone and unconscious, when they find your carry gun, they will give it to the cops, and the cops will take it away. You will then have to go through the long and bureaucratic process of reclaiming it. (This is why it's good to have more than one carry gun, but never to carry them all at once.) Now, I would bet that if you're conscious and accompanied by a responsible friend or loved one, they will give you the opportunity to give your gun to the person you know. Not sure about this, though...

August 22, 2007, 02:24 PM	#11
gordo_gun_guy Senior Member Join Date: July 31, 2007 Posts: 250	My army doctor friend--not in florida--was saying he heard of trauma patients in FL being refused service because they were incapacitated and couldn't secure their weapon, and the hospital staff would not take responsibility for securing the weapon out of liability concerns. I want to believe it's just a rumor and I wouldn't really be SOL because I was packing when I got run over or something, but I've heard stupider things that turned out to be true.... BTW, this same friend, a gun guy and soldier, keeps low key in the med community--for instance, the AMA uses "statistics" to support gun control, etc....

August 22, 2007, 02:30 PM	#12
divemedic Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2006 Posts: 1,310	The law states that they cannot refuse care. I can tell you this: If you have an altered mental status, you WILL receive care, and the cops will get your weapon. I am not arguing that. That is the way it is done. My question was this: If you are conscious, and attempt to enter the ER for treatment, can the ER legally refuse to allow you to enter for care? Can the police officer legally confiscate your weapon, if you have broken no law, assuming you are mentally competent? Is this a legal search? Changing the policy of the hospitals is nearly impossible. One of the hospitals involved is the largest chain in the state, and they are NOT going to change the policy. They have "gun busters" signs on every campus.

August 22, 2007, 02:58 PM	#13
fastforty Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 1999 Location: In a kornfield in kalifornia Posts: 1,161	Our local hospital recently adopted the No Weapons policy too (I have carried there numerous times without a second thought). Last year, when a full sized pickup truck blew a red light at 50 mph & broadsided us, my wife was taken to ER in an ambulance (I caught a ride with a local PD officer a few minutes later). I went inside & was "greeted" by a rent-a-cop with a wand. I told him that I was carrying, as he was bringing the wand up to assault my privacy. He asked to see my badge (I wonder if one of those hokey CCW badges would have stumped him?). I told him that I was a CCW holder, he asked for & examined my permit. He was clueless what to do, so he called someone. Moments later, two more similar dressed men exited from the door he was blocking and flanked him (this REALLY wasn't looking good, LOL). One of them informed me that I could NOT go into the ER to see my wife while carrying. I went back to the phone (two feet inside of the main entry door, leading to the bullet-proof glass protected admissions desk) and made a call to try to get a family member to come down & secure my weapon. I then went outside for a few minutes & huffed a cigarette. Upon re-entering to use the phone again, the original uniformed person was on me like snot on a rag, informing me that I COULD NOT enter the building for any reason (the nearest phone outside of the hospital is a mile away & oh yeah, my car was turned inside out who-knows-where). Within two minutes of that, a police car pulled up & stopped across the entry doors to the ER (back to not looking good again). When the officer exited his car, he recognized me from the accident scene, greeted me politely & went inside to meet with the RP. Luckily, it was the same cop who brought me to the hospital earlier. We had chatted in the patrol car, so he had already figured out that I wasn't a psycho- not to mention that if I was gonna go postal I probably would have done it at the accident scene. When he came back out he was friendly & offered to secure my weapon so that I could gain entry to the ER. I turned my strongside toward him, unclipped and slid out my IWB holster and handed it to him intact. He started to stow it in his vehicle, then handed it back to me, asking that I unload it first (yeah, right out in broad daylight in front of the ER). I turned so that he had a full view of my straight trigger finger, pointed the holster in a safe direction, at the ground ahead of my feet and removed the weapon from the holster. With my finger straight along the frame rail, I removed the magazine and handed it to him. I then locked the slide back, capturing the chambered round in my support hand and handed it to him as well. He was ready to take the weapon at that time, but I did not offer it to him as the unloading procedure was not yet complete. I slipped my supportside middle finger deep into the magwell and moved it freely from front to back. I then transferred the weapon to my supportside hand and inserted my strongside pinky finger into the open action, plugging it firmly into the empty chamber (upon removing that finger, it bore evidence of an empty chamber by exhibiting a black circle around the tip). I then offered the weapon to the officer, who grinned & said "are you SURE it's unloaded?". To which I responded "Absolutely certain" (as I kept it pointed in a safe direction while handing it to him). After the ER drama was over, I stopped by the police department and my weapon was returned without any delay. But yeah, we are starting to see FAR too many "Gun Free" zones :barf:

August 22, 2007, 04:15 PM	#15
divemedic Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2006 Posts: 1,310	While I admit that to be a good story, it makes my point. Many political appointees (police chiefs, fire chiefs, and other Chief Executives of local Govt) are servants of the libs who appoint them, and serve completely at the pleasure of the appointer. They are (mostly) GFW's, as evidenced by the support of the Police Chiefs for more gun bans. Most rank and file cops, firefighters, nurses, doctors, and others (at least around here) are gunnies. If one of us finds out about a weapon, and we do not take it (read "confiscate") we are gonna be in BIG trouble. The deputies in my incident, had they taken possession of the weapon, would have turned it into the office, and the owner would never have seen it again.

August 22, 2007, 06:43 PM	#16
Pat H Junior member Join Date: July 21, 2007 Location: Travelers Rest, South Carolina Posts: 1,039	divemedic, what you say is correct, most rank and file cops are pro-gun owners rights as long as you are law abiding. The issue, for them, becomes what is the law. If the law becomes gun registration, magazine limits, black gun bans; then those bastions of gun owner rights seem to change. Naturally, when the state attorney general or the mayor of a city, comes to them and tells them that failure to enforce the laws restricting gun owner right will jeapardize their retirement or employment opportunities, one can understand their position.