Winchester Molel 12

av8tor · March 24, 2007, 05:20 PM

I was given a Winchester Model 12,it has had the barrel cut off even with the magazine.I don't know why the barrel was cut off,but it was.I measured the barrel and it is 17.75" long,I think it has to be at least 18" long to be leagle.My question is;can I have a choke put on the barrel to make it more than 18",or should I destroy this barrel and replace it with another?I will only use the gun for home defense and will noy be hunting with it.

av8tor

Chuck Dye · March 24, 2007, 06:22 PM

Oh, dear (oy, ve?)

When skimming through the new posts, my twisted brain saw Mohel 12 instead of Molel 12. On reading the post, it seems I was not that far wrong

Even if the added length of the choke makes the barrel legal, the hassles and costs of winning that argument in court, should anyone in power think otherwise, are sure to outweigh getting a new barrel. An option could be having a competent smith weld the choke in place, making it permanent.

James K · March 24, 2007, 08:08 PM

You could be between a rock and a hard place. First, measure the barrel the way it is done for legal purposes. With the bolt closed, insert a rod into front of the barrel until it hits the bolt face. Mark the rod just at the end of the barrel, remove the rod and measure from its end to the mark. If that distance is less than 18", the gun is illegal unless registered as a short barrel shotgun. If it is 18" or more, OK.

Now, if the barrel is less than 18", and if the gun is not registered as a short barrel shotgun, it is illegal under Federal law and possibly also under state or local law. Since the law has already been violated, you can't really do anything legally except to surrender the gun to BATFE or the police.

Someone in that situation might have the idea of welding on a choke or extension, but no gunsmith would touch the job since the gun is illegal.

Of course if that someone were to destroy the barrel, cutting it into pieces and scrapping them, then the gun would be simply a gun without a barrel. Then that someone could order a new barrel. Gun Parts Corp. (www.gunpartscorp.com) lists 20" cylinder barrels, 12 gauge, for a little less than $200. That could be what someone might want for home defense.

Jim

av8tor · March 25, 2007, 10:18 AM

Jim,
Thanks for the info,I measured the barrel where it connects to the gun.The gun has been taken appart because I was going to see if a choke could be welded to it to get the length.But with the info you sent me,I will have a gun without a barrel until I find a barrel.Again,Thanks.

av8tor

av8tor · March 25, 2007, 10:31 AM

Huck,
Thanks for your reply.I'm now looking for a model 12 barrel.I'm out of town at this time,but if I can remember I'll look and see the date on the gun.I'm getting old,and the gun is way older than I am.May-be made in the 40's or 50's?

av8tor

James K · March 25, 2007, 01:33 PM

If you measured the barrel from the end of the frame, the barrel is probably 18" since at least an inch of that barrel is inside the frame. Measure it inside to the bolt face, as I said, and see what you get.

I suspect that whoever cut down the barrel knew what he was doing in trying to get it to the legal minimum, so it could be OK.

Jim

paul salchow · March 25, 2007, 10:19 PM

If the barrel is to short to save, remove the adjusting ring and lock parts and remove the barrel extension. If you need help doing this i will remove it if your local.
These parts are worth saving if possible to reinstall on a new barrel. it will have to fit somewhat but it is easier than starting with completely new parts and cheaper also.

Abstract · March 26, 2007, 08:21 AM

Cutts Compensator. I wouldn't think a gunsmith would hesitate to make the barrel legal. Unless the barrel is mysteriously inspected by BATFE prior to the silver soldering (when's the last time that happened?), then you'll have a legal barrel.

On the other hand, as Jim said, you're probably measuring incorrectly. Measure as Jim suggested, and you'll probably find that you have a legal barrel.

Hmmmm. As an afterthought.....you didn't buy that barrel from a guy named Randy Weaver, by any chance?

James K · March 26, 2007, 03:36 PM

I think it unlikely that a gunsmith would be caught at that moment, but I always figured that with my luck if I had something illegal in the shop, that was just when BATFE would do a compliance inspection. I would not touch a "sawed off", no matter what.

But, most people who did that kind of thing knew the law and made sure the barrel was legal, if only barely.

Jim

Abstract · March 26, 2007, 04:29 PM

Yeah, Jim, it just doesn't make any sense that somebody (even an amateur) would be off by 1/2". If you're going less-than-legal, surely you'd whack off more than that! I'm betting he isn't measuring correctly.

On the other hand, when gunsmiths cut off barrels, in order to install a device like a Cutts, they frequently cut the barrel shorter than 18".

Scorch · March 26, 2007, 04:37 PM

Quote:

On the other hand, when gunsmiths cut off barrels, in order to install a device like a Cutts, they frequently cut the barrel shorter than 18".

We never did!! We never cut barrels to less than 18.5" so that the Feds could never say that we were creating illegal weapons. I had a few people bring in barrels that were shorter than 18", and told the owners to take them right back out through the door. Didn't even want them in-house!

ZeroJunk · March 27, 2007, 10:33 PM

The "Turkey Shoot" barrel mechanics routinely cut them off at the end of the forend and extend them out whatever length you want.They can turn it down on a lathe ,put it back together with hardly a visible line.Backbore and sleeve to whatever you want.Keep in mind it is intended for low velocity small shot.I have one I have shot several hundred times with no problem.Of course you can throw it away and get a used barrel from Vintage or Broome or eBay.

James K · March 27, 2007, 10:43 PM

I agree with Scorch. No gunsmith I know would ever cut a barrel below the legal limit, no matter what was to be done with it ultimately. While it isn't likely BATFE would be there at that time, the customer would tell all his friends at the bar what you did for him and pretty soon the feds would show up by the dozens.

As for "turkey shoot" mechanics cutting off barrels and putting on extensions, I have seen it done but never saw it done well. It is usually done with collector guns that have blown barrels, but where retaining the original markings is important. It is a very tricky proposition, and not at all common.

Jim

ZeroJunk · March 28, 2007, 12:13 AM

There are money shoots here where every barrel is done that way and quite well.Most are extended to 40 inches or more.I know it's not reasonable for av8tor's purpose when a used barrel can be found,but it can definitely be done-and well done.Seems a little paranoid that one couldn't tell the BATFE agent what you were doing and why.He knows good and well that nobody expects or needs a gunsmith to saw off a shotgun barrel to an illegal length.I suspect they have better things to do.BTW,I didn't call them gunsmiths because they are not a full service smith.They make turkey shoot barrels period for $300 up.

**44 AMP** · March 31, 2007, 07:22 PM

As Mr Keenen described, and you are still below the 18" legal limit, then remove the barrel and reciever extension. I would suggest taking it to the garage and hammering the muzzle end of the barrel flat. (It may not save you from legal trouble if you are caught, but damn sure nobody will think you intend to use it!) Or you could cut it apart, to make it totally unuseable. Use your imagination.

Take the reciever extension and the now useless (broken) barrel to a gunsmith and have the barrel removed from the reciever extension (unless you can do this work yourself). Then put away all the parts to the gun, minus the destroyed short barrel (throw that away/scrap metal/ turn it in to the ATF/whatever) while you look for a replacement barrel for your Model 12.

When you find one, take it to a gunsmith and have it installed.

Trying to have some length added could be done, but I feel you would be further ahead with a new barrel, anyway you want to look at it.

March 24, 2007, 05:20 PM	#1
av8tor Junior Member Join Date: March 24, 2007 Location: Montgomery,TX Posts: 3	Winchester Molel 12 I was given a Winchester Model 12,it has had the barrel cut off even with the magazine.I don't know why the barrel was cut off,but it was.I measured the barrel and it is 17.75" long,I think it has to be at least 18" long to be leagle.My question is;can I have a choke put on the barrel to make it more than 18",or should I destroy this barrel and replace it with another?I will only use the gun for home defense and will noy be hunting with it. av8tor

March 25, 2007, 10:18 AM	#4
av8tor Junior Member Join Date: March 24, 2007 Location: Montgomery,TX Posts: 3	Model 12 Barrel Jim, Thanks for the info,I measured the barrel where it connects to the gun.The gun has been taken appart because I was going to see if a choke could be welded to it to get the length.But with the info you sent me,I will have a gun without a barrel until I find a barrel.Again,Thanks. av8tor

March 25, 2007, 10:31 AM	#5
av8tor Junior Member Join Date: March 24, 2007 Location: Montgomery,TX Posts: 3	Model 12 Barrel Huck, Thanks for your reply.I'm now looking for a model 12 barrel.I'm out of town at this time,but if I can remember I'll look and see the date on the gun.I'm getting old,and the gun is way older than I am.May-be made in the 40's or 50's? av8tor

March 31, 2007, 07:22 PM	#15
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 30,465	If you measured correctly... As Mr Keenen described, and you are still below the 18" legal limit, then remove the barrel and reciever extension. I would suggest taking it to the garage and hammering the muzzle end of the barrel flat. (It may not save you from legal trouble if you are caught, but damn sure nobody will think you intend to use it!) Or you could cut it apart, to make it totally unuseable. Use your imagination. Take the reciever extension and the now useless (broken) barrel to a gunsmith and have the barrel removed from the reciever extension (unless you can do this work yourself). Then put away all the parts to the gun, minus the destroyed short barrel (throw that away/scrap metal/ turn it in to the ATF/whatever) while you look for a replacement barrel for your Model 12. When you find one, take it to a gunsmith and have it installed. Trying to have some length added could be done, but I feel you would be further ahead with a new barrel, anyway you want to look at it. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

March 24, 2007, 06:22 PM	#2
Chuck Dye Senior Member Join Date: June 28, 2002 Location: Oregon-The wet side. Posts: 949	Oh, dear (oy, ve?) When skimming through the new posts, my twisted brain saw Mohel 12 instead of Molel 12. On reading the post, it seems I was not that far wrong Even if the added length of the choke makes the barrel legal, the hassles and costs of winning that argument in court, should anyone in power think otherwise, are sure to outweigh getting a new barrel. An option could be having a competent smith weld the choke in place, making it permanent.

March 24, 2007, 08:08 PM	#3
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	You could be between a rock and a hard place. First, measure the barrel the way it is done for legal purposes. With the bolt closed, insert a rod into front of the barrel until it hits the bolt face. Mark the rod just at the end of the barrel, remove the rod and measure from its end to the mark. If that distance is less than 18", the gun is illegal unless registered as a short barrel shotgun. If it is 18" or more, OK. Now, if the barrel is less than 18", and if the gun is not registered as a short barrel shotgun, it is illegal under Federal law and possibly also under state or local law. Since the law has already been violated, you can't really do anything legally except to surrender the gun to BATFE or the police. Someone in that situation might have the idea of welding on a choke or extension, but no gunsmith would touch the job since the gun is illegal. Of course if that someone were to destroy the barrel, cutting it into pieces and scrapping them, then the gun would be simply a gun without a barrel. Then that someone could order a new barrel. Gun Parts Corp. (www.gunpartscorp.com) lists 20" cylinder barrels, 12 gauge, for a little less than $200. That could be what someone might want for home defense. Jim

March 25, 2007, 01:33 PM	#6
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	If you measured the barrel from the end of the frame, the barrel is probably 18" since at least an inch of that barrel is inside the frame. Measure it inside to the bolt face, as I said, and see what you get. I suspect that whoever cut down the barrel knew what he was doing in trying to get it to the legal minimum, so it could be OK. Jim

March 25, 2007, 10:19 PM	#7
paul salchow Member Join Date: July 2, 2004 Posts: 64	If the barrel is to short to save, remove the adjusting ring and lock parts and remove the barrel extension. If you need help doing this i will remove it if your local. These parts are worth saving if possible to reinstall on a new barrel. it will have to fit somewhat but it is easier than starting with completely new parts and cheaper also.

March 26, 2007, 08:21 AM	#8
Abstract Junior member Join Date: December 25, 2006 Posts: 443	Cutts Compensator. I wouldn't think a gunsmith would hesitate to make the barrel legal. Unless the barrel is mysteriously inspected by BATFE prior to the silver soldering (when's the last time that happened?), then you'll have a legal barrel. On the other hand, as Jim said, you're probably measuring incorrectly. Measure as Jim suggested, and you'll probably find that you have a legal barrel. Hmmmm. As an afterthought.....you didn't buy that barrel from a guy named Randy Weaver, by any chance?

March 26, 2007, 03:36 PM	#9
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I think it unlikely that a gunsmith would be caught at that moment, but I always figured that with my luck if I had something illegal in the shop, that was just when BATFE would do a compliance inspection. I would not touch a "sawed off", no matter what. But, most people who did that kind of thing knew the law and made sure the barrel was legal, if only barely. Jim

March 26, 2007, 04:29 PM	#10
Abstract Junior member Join Date: December 25, 2006 Posts: 443	Yeah, Jim, it just doesn't make any sense that somebody (even an amateur) would be off by 1/2". If you're going less-than-legal, surely you'd whack off more than that! I'm betting he isn't measuring correctly. On the other hand, when gunsmiths cut off barrels, in order to install a device like a Cutts, they frequently cut the barrel shorter than 18".

March 27, 2007, 10:33 PM	#12
ZeroJunk Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2006 Location: Browns Summit NC Posts: 2,589	The "Turkey Shoot" barrel mechanics routinely cut them off at the end of the forend and extend them out whatever length you want.They can turn it down on a lathe ,put it back together with hardly a visible line.Backbore and sleeve to whatever you want.Keep in mind it is intended for low velocity small shot.I have one I have shot several hundred times with no problem.Of course you can throw it away and get a used barrel from Vintage or Broome or eBay.

March 27, 2007, 10:43 PM	#13
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I agree with Scorch. No gunsmith I know would ever cut a barrel below the legal limit, no matter what was to be done with it ultimately. While it isn't likely BATFE would be there at that time, the customer would tell all his friends at the bar what you did for him and pretty soon the feds would show up by the dozens. As for "turkey shoot" mechanics cutting off barrels and putting on extensions, I have seen it done but never saw it done well. It is usually done with collector guns that have blown barrels, but where retaining the original markings is important. It is a very tricky proposition, and not at all common. Jim

March 28, 2007, 12:13 AM	#14
ZeroJunk Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2006 Location: Browns Summit NC Posts: 2,589	There are money shoots here where every barrel is done that way and quite well.Most are extended to 40 inches or more.I know it's not reasonable for av8tor's purpose when a used barrel can be found,but it can definitely be done-and well done.Seems a little paranoid that one couldn't tell the BATFE agent what you were doing and why.He knows good and well that nobody expects or needs a gunsmith to saw off a shotgun barrel to an illegal length.I suspect they have better things to do.BTW,I didn't call them gunsmiths because they are not a full service smith.They make turkey shoot barrels period for $300 up.