Use of a knife against an assailant in a gun grab maneveur.

[marlboroman84]

I read an article this morning in BLACKHAWK! magazine that I thought would be worth sharing. Some of you may already know this, but i think it's good training anyway.

WARNING: SOMEWHAT GRAPHIC CONTENT!

Handgun Retention's Cut-Off Zone! (written by:Michael Janich)

When you look at most of the guys who carry guns, you'll find the vast majority of them also carry some type of knife. When you ask them why, you'll get a variety of answers, but one of the most common is that they "carry a knife to keep their gun." In other words they carry a weapon retention tool.

First, let's look at the theory of the traditional approach:
1.You carry a tactical folder in your weak side pocket.
2.Bad guy grabs your gun.
3.You grab bad guy's wrist.
4.You draw and open your tactical folder with your weak hand.
5.You cut bad guy's hand off your gun.

In theory that sounds great. However, you need to remember that a gun grab is a violent,dynamic situation, that typically involves yanking,pulling,hitting, and lots of movement. You also need to understand that, once you latch onto the bad guy's wrist, you have committed yourself to a gross-motor-skill tug of war.

A better solution is a technique that i developed several years ago with some of my law enforcement students. It goes like this:
1.Use a holster that offers a superior combination of weapon retention and accessibility.
2.Carry a fixed blade (or open folder in a sheath like a fixed blade) in front of your body for a left-hand, reverse-grip draw.
3. Bad guy grabs your gun.
4.You grab the bad guy above the elbow to limit his mobility to one joint (the shoulder).Now, every time he pulls, you simply "ride" the pull with your whole body. The gun stays in the holster or, if it comes out, it stays trapped under your arm and pointed at something other than you.
5. You draw your knife in reverse grip with your left hand and raise it straight to his bicep. With full body weight, you pressure cut his bicep in half.
6. Bad guy stops pulling because he has no bicep.
7.If he still has a grip on the gun (the forearm muscles and flexor tendons may still act independently), you track your hand down to his wrist and cut a second time to sever his forearm muscles and eliminate his grip.
8.Bad guy's hand releases.
9.You create distance and draw a superior weapon to assume decisive control.

CONTINUED.....

[marlboroman84]

I believe that my approach offers a number of significant advantages.
These include:
1.All your motions are gross-motor-skill oriented.
2.You achieve better control over the attacker's arm and body-and your gun.
3.You are directly attacking the muscles that are causing the problem.
4.The motion of your knife arm also shields you against the bad guy's free-hand strikes.
5.The same body mechanics also work as an empty-hand technique against left-hand,right-hand,and two-hand grabs and also function as a preemptive defense.

In any real self-defense situation,theory isn't good enough. You need practical,versatile tactics that provide you with a workable, yet flexible,game plan.

I thought the above article would be quite useful and interesting, as I know several members here at TFL carry a "knife, gun combo". I know alot of states have laws prohibiting carry of certain types of knives, so in the event you can't carry a knife in a sheath, I would recommend a folding knife with loose tension so that the knife could by opened by flicking it out quickly with your weak hand. I hope you all enjoy the article.

Be safe, Chuck

I didn't write the article and claim no responsibility for it's contents.

[stevelyn]

I'm glad to see that someone else is thinking in this manner. I developed a similar strategy long ago that basically the same as the author's and have tried passing it on to my guys even though it's not part of any "certified" training doctrine that I'm aware of.

I carry a tactical folder weak-side for just such a contingency and have been debating whether a fixed blade would be better.

A couple minor detail differences though.......

1) For duty we use Level 3 retention holsters. I find that rather than grabbing the BG's wrist to control him, it probably easier, safer and more effective to grab the gun near the butt and keep it pushed into the locking device.

2) It seems to make more sense to move against the BG making his grip or pressure on your gun assist you in keeping it up against the locking device. (Know and understand how your holster retains the pistol)

3) An attempted gun snatch is deadly force. Hack, slash and stab at any target that presents itself and do so with the plan to slash through muscles and tendons in the forearm and upper arm that control arm and hand gripping movements. If you ain't scraping bone, you ain't cutting deep enough.
Keep your knife shaving sharp and don't use it for general cutting tasks.

4) It's gonna get bloody.

Non-security type holsters are a little more problematic, but basically you need to push down on the gun to keep it in the holster, move toward the BG to keep him off balance and from gaining any leverage and fight like hell.

[marlboroman84]

It seems to make more sense to move against the BG making his grip or pressure on your gun assist you in keeping it up against the locking device. (Know and understand how your holster retains the pistol)

The author writes for Blackhawk and is using the CQC Serpa holster as an example. With the retention device on that specific holster he would have to get to the side of the holster and flip the retaining device.

You bring up some excellent points, especially the comment about a gun grab being deadly force.

[Samurai]

Those of you who know me know that I'm VERY pro-knife. I have, at times in the past, taken the position that a knife (in the proper hands) is actually MORE deadly at close range than a gun. I still stand in that camp...

BUT...

The above-referenced article describes about the WORST scenario I can think of to take one hand off of the gun and go for a knife! In this particular instance, a knife is NOT the proper tool to use to fend off the attacker.

When you're carrying a gun, and someone goes for the gun, weapon retention should be your ONLY thought. If someone is going for your gun, for all that is holy, KEEP BOTH HANDS ON IT!!!

Try an exercise at home for me. Drop your conceal-carry weapon of choice into a holster on your strong side. Then, find a buddy (of comparable size and strength) to stand behind you. Have the buddy gently reach up and place his hand on your gun. Place your hand on top of his. Then, on the count of three, you try to retain the gun (one-handed) and have him/her try to pull the gun.

Here's what you'll find, when you do this one-handed, the guy wearing the gun (pushing down on the gun) will almost ALWAYS lose the gun to the guy standing behind him (pulling the gun upward and toward himself). Simple biomechanics: The pulling motion is a stronger movement.

Then, try it with both hands. You hold with both hands, while he tries to pull the gun with one hand. You will find that it is MUCH easier to retain the weapon.

So, what do we do, then, when someone tries to grab our gun from the holster? When this happens, I want two phrases to be screaming in your head:

First phrase: "BOTH HANDS!" Use both hands to retain the weapon into the holster. You can NOT overpower the assailant with one hand, while you grab for a knife with the other hand. It'd be REALLY COOL if you could fillet his arm in response to this horrendous aggression. You can't. Sorry. Retain the weapon with both hands.

Second phrase: "SPIN TOWARD HIM!" While you retain the weapon with both hands, spin around to face the guy. Turn toward the weapon, such that the handle of the weapon is moving AWAY from the palm of his hand. (Turn to your right if he's standing behind you, the gun is on your right side, and he's grabbing with his right hand; turn to the left if he's in front of you, and he's grabbing with his left hand) This spinning movement will strip the gun out of his fingers, and put distance between your weapon and him. It will also line him up for you to draw the gun and shoot him.

Again, I say, this technique will STRIP the weapon out of the assailant's hand, leaving it safely in your holster.

Don't believe me? You shouldn't. I'm a rank amateur in marksmanship (but a martial arts efficianado), and the guy that writes for Blackhawk (for obvious reasons) knows MUCH more about guns than me... Tell you what: Try both options. Try retaining the gun with one hand while you try to access a folder or a fixed blade with the other. Also, try my drill, outlined above. I just bet that you'll agree with me that the two-hand retention method works best. ('Cause I've done this drill before...) And, you'll probably find that you have a very limited success with the one-hand retention and knife technique.

Stay safe!

[ceetee]

The phrase "Distance is your friend" is echoing through my mind.

I'm thinking that the original post assumes your assailant is grabbing from the front, in which case attacking his arm may be a viable choice. Stepping back, you may trip over an unseen object. I've always found (I'm no expert, but I do have som emoderate experience with martial arts) that any grab from the front can be defeated with any number of blows to the grabbing arm, or with a specific counter to the grab. A sharp strike to the grabbing arm will knock it away from the holster long enough for you to step away. If you don't have a retention holster (and most of us non-LEO's don't) then resistance as described by Samurai will work. IMO, it is probably better than busying a free hand to try to get and open a knife. How many people have a fixed-blade knife as EDC?

If the attacker is grabbing from the rear, then a sharp blow still can knock the grabbing hand away long enough for you to turn your gun side away from your attacker as described, also. Above all, though, I think your first ptiority should be retaining your weapon, and second should be gaining enough distance to safely remove yourself from the immediate risk of a grab. All you need is a few steps in order to draw and shoot.

[Blackwater OPS]

I agree with Samurai and I would note a few other problems with Chuck's strategy.

4.You grab the bad guy above the elbow to limit his mobility to one joint (the shoulder).

So, instead od a wrist lock which is a proven technique, we are using a....bicep lock?!? The average person is going to find grabbing a muscular bicep very difficult.

This is how I train:

1. BG grabs gun. I assume he is standing behind me and retention has basically failed already(worst case scenario).

2. With my right (or strong) hand I grab the KNUCKLES of the hand on my gun. I am NOT pushing directly, but using the gun as leverage to pry the BGs hand of it.

3. (This occurs at the same time as 2.) I am pivoting on my strong foot toward my attacker) I am also drawing my "Weapon Retention Tool" (If for some reason I don't have one, I'm still in good position here)

3. I am now facing my attacker's flank, I have control of his strong hand, and I have retained my primary weapon and probably drawn my WRT.

4. I can cut forearm tendons, gain distance and draw my primary, or just use unarmed self defense and subdue the attacker.

[marlboroman84]

I agree with Samurai and I would note a few other problems with Chuck's strategy.

Just to clear it up it's not MY strategy Blackwater lol. I just liked the article and decided to post it.

The article is also using that technique with a front facing gun grab, I.E you and your attacker are facing each other. There are several ways this could go right and wrong.

Samurai and Blackwater bring up some very good points and alternatives! Good training guys! Keep it up.

[azurefly]

I'm no expert,
but I think that all this "pressure cut his biceps in half" stuff is overthinking.

If I were in a struggle for my gun, I would consider it a life-or-death situation that warrants me making deadly strikes against my attacker. That would mean, if I were able to get my hands on a fixed blade knife, I would just be slashing and stabbing any exposed part of that sonofabitch. Stab him in the neck, do you think he's still going for your gun? Stab out an eye, is he still going to be much of a threat?

Meanwhile, do you have to think about pressure-cutting his biceps if the attack comes from a guy wearing a biker leather jacket? A thick winter coat? You going to pressure-cut through that?

I'd just as soon have at him with the frenzied stabbing motions...


-azurefly

[marlboroman84]

Stab him in the neck, do you think he's still going for your gun? Stab out an eye, is he still going to be much of a threat?

As with all martial arts and "theoretical self-defense" it's all theory, and while good to practice, doesn't mean it's gonna always work that way.
My martial arts instructor always said "If it's gonna be a fight for your life,fight like it is." He constantly preached how techniques and forms were good, but that they were only little parts of a broader scheme. As in, if you're fighting someone off they are not going to attack like people do in class and you have to be versatile and ruthless in your defense.

Good points Azurefly. One thing I noticed even as I was posting the article was that I would probably stab into the armpit and cut. That's gonna sever alot of muscle and tendons and reflex would be to let go of me and my gun.

[FLA2760]

Wow this is a good thread it gets you thinking. I too carry a knife but my thinking is that if this SOB is trying to grab my primary weapon to use on me I will introduce his head to the muzzle flash of my Kel Tec P32 bug. I carry it weakside.

[fm2]

The gun grab scenario is another good reason not to carry in a paddle holster, Fobus, or a number of other holsters sold.

If you are able to get your blade into play, I am thinking a sewing machine motion would be more appropriate than a slashing motion.

stevelyn- a fixed blade in a proper sheath is significantly better than a folder.

[Para Bellum]

1.You carry a tactical folder in your weak side pocket.
2.Bad guy grabs your gun.
3.You grab bad guy's wrist.
4.You draw and open your tactical folder with your weak hand.
5.You cut bad guy's hand off your gun.

after 20+ years of hand-to-hand training that sounds like pure nonsense to me. you can't focus on both hands with complicated moves while somebody is grabbing your gun. and btw that "idea" forgets the second hand of the gun grabber.

Grab his hand, kick his knees from the side and use your second hand to hurt him fast (eyes, throat, groin, or rip of his fingers and break them quick).

phew, what a mall-nija-idea. devastating.:barf:

[CobrayCommando]

1.You carry a tactical folder in your weak side pocket.
2.Bad guy grabs your gun.
3.You shoot him until the magazine runs dry.

[marlboroman84]

Para bellum if you look back at the article the part you quoted is exactly what the author himself disagreed with. The second part is what the author recommends. It's from a police instructor so I think it's a bit more logical than "mall ninja" training, but take from it what you want.

1.You carry a tactical folder in your weak side pocket.
2.Bad guy grabs your gun.
3.You shoot him until the magazine runs dry.

Shoot him with what Cobray? Your holstered gun? Your back-up gun?

I realize everybody is gonna have differing views, but I posted this for the tactical applications of the use of a KNIFE against a gun grab. I really don't want this to deteriorate into a "WELL I'D JUST DO THIS!" Kinda thread.

Can we keep it to within the confines of this specific tactical application? Please? I'm begging here.

[CobrayCommando]

I guess I don't understand the scenario, I just assumed he grabbed the gun but it was pointed at him. So if the gun was not pointed at him I think I would try to try it to the center of my chest until I had a massive amount of leverage then point it at him and shoot him.

Or you could just shoot, which would almost certainly dislodge his hand and maybe jam the gun, then either shoot him or bash him over the head with the gun until hes no longer a threat and fix the jam.

[marlboroman84]

As the article showed (which I couldn't post the pics here) the scenario is as if an assailant approached you attempting to rob you,sees your gun on your hip, and grabs for it.

When he grabs at your gun you lock his arm up underneath yours (pinning his arm between your rib cage and arm) this keeps the gun in a safe direction even if it clears the holster. During this time you bring your knife into play however you see fit to stab,slash,etc.

It's not the best application necessarily, but no training scenario is ever gonna play out textbook in a fight anyway. it's just to give you a well rounded idea of what you COULD do.

[CobrayCommando]

Ohhhh... In that case I really don't know. What I would probably do is pin his arm like you say, then draw a knife and stab him in the face a bunch of times.

[marlboroman84]

What I would probably do is pin his arm like you say, then draw a knife and stab him in the face a bunch of times.

THAT'S THE SPIRIT!

[tegemu]

Luckily here in Fla, the Gunshine State, our permit is a Concealed Weapons License which authorizes fixed blade knifes. I carry a Gerber Boot Knife with a 3.5", double edged blade, on my weak side with my magazine holder.

[Blackwater OPS]

the scenario is as if an assailant approached you attempting to rob you,sees your gun on your hip, and grabs for it.

Why on earth would your strong side be TOWARDS the aggressor? If there is one thing LE training driled in over and over it's PROTECT YOUR GUN.

[marlboroman84]

Why on earth would your strong side be TOWARDS the aggressor?

Not your strong side! Your front is facing the assailant as if you were talking to him and he suddenly goes for your gun. I'd like to thank my fiance' for being such a good sport lol.

Demonstrative pics below.... I hope this finally clears it up.

[Blackwater OPS]

Even if you are just talking, your stong side should be away from the person you are talking to, "bladed" at a 45 degree angle. The situation as described should never happen.

Oh, and I don't see any pics btw.

[LICCW]

This thread is making me think of the best ways to minimize the possibility of a "from the front gun grab". I did see a post mention keeping some distance from an attacker, but how about other thigs to keep in mind, like where to position your holster, the type of holster best suited to avoid a gun grab, or other things one should keep in mind?

[marlboroman84]

Blackwater,
I don't know what happened to the pics. I'll try to fix it in a bit. Sorry about that.