Japan Gun Control Laws Didn't Stop Shooting

k Squared · May 26, 2008, 09:48 AM

It's a good thing Japan has some of the toughest gun control laws in the world to protect her citizens from shootings.:barf:

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/as....ap/index.html

FireMax · May 26, 2008, 09:54 AM

Gun control only controls law abiding citizens. It does nothing to disarm crooks.

Wildalaska · May 26, 2008, 01:08 PM

And the point is, other than a drive by?

WildumwhatisthepointAlaska TM

Shorts · May 26, 2008, 06:30 PM

Yakuza is the exception to all the rules in Japan

Not really much to reply to the OP. This isn't the first time that's happened here. Won't be the last. The mayor could have easily been stabbed on the subway.

MedicineBow · May 26, 2008, 07:27 PM

Well, first: I'm all for the right to own guns in the USA, and I do (and have early and often). That is my right, and I intend to always work to keep that right.

That said, one has to admit the murder rate in, say, Japan is much lower than here (less than 1/8 the murder rate in the USA). And Japan doesn't even rank on murders using firearms. To give you an idea of how low that rate is in other countries that do make the ranking, for instance, the murder by firearms rate in the UK is about 1/27th (!) of the rate in the US (while the UK murder rate is about 1/3 of the USA's).

Sad but true.

LostOne · May 26, 2008, 07:38 PM

People die, its not a good enough reason to take away something from me thats constitutionally given.

Wildalaska · May 26, 2008, 09:50 PM

Quote:

That said, one has to admit the murder rate in, say, Japan is much lower than here

That has nothing to do with firearm laws and everything to do with being Japanese

WildasperswmboAlaska TM

MedicineBow · May 26, 2008, 09:57 PM

Wildalaska:

Yes, one hopes it turns out that the citizens of the rest of the first world are just less murderous than we are!

Shorts · May 26, 2008, 10:08 PM

Quote:

MedicineBow Well, first: I'm all for the right to own guns in the USA, and I do (and have early and often). That is my right, and I intend to always work to keep that right.

That said, one has to admit the murder rate in, say, Japan is much lower than here (less than 1/8 the murder rate in the USA). And Japan doesn't even rank on murders using firearms. To give you an idea of how low that rate is in other countries that do make the ranking, for instance, the murder by firearms rate in the UK is about 1/27th (!) of the rate in the US (while the UK murder rate is about 1/3 of the USA's).

Sad but true.

I've lived in Japan now for 2.5yrs. I can say the article below holds water.

<sigh> guess I'll post this link again

http://www.davekopel.com/2A/Foreign/...le-Control.htm

wayneinFL · May 26, 2008, 10:11 PM

Russia has some pretty strict gun control laws, but has a murder rate five times ours. It's obvious there's a difference in culture that affects the number of murders in any country.

Shorts · May 26, 2008, 10:12 PM

Quote:

wayneinFL Russia has some pretty strict gun control laws, but has a murder rate five times ours. It's obvious there's a difference in culture that affects the number of murders in any country.

Bingo

MedicineBow · May 26, 2008, 11:56 PM

Perhaps the UK and Japan are just populated by more peaceful people, which explains the lower murder rates (though it doesn't do much to explain the even disproportionately lower murder by firearms rate). Who knows.

Yellowfin · May 27, 2008, 01:33 AM

The UK does NOT have lower crime rates than here. They finagle the reporting of it to hide it just like how college campuses do so here to spare themselves of being embarassed and their failed policies and ineptitude brought to light. It is indeed true, though, that the Japanese culture is much more homogenous, disciplined, and family oriented compared to here across the spectrum. As Sean Connery said in Rising Sun "We may come from a fragmented MTV rock and roll culture, but they do not."

Something I often mention but it further bears repeating here again: using the crime rates for the US as a total for comparison of firearm freedom to no firearm freedom isn't totally valid because there are places in the US where it's very bad yet none of the freedom. Thus they should be removed from the equation. The question so often being asked is whether LEGAL gun ownership CAUSES CRIME. To accurately answer that question you have to take out the anti gun places' murder figures from the total of the US and the crimes from ineligible people possessing firearms. Removing those two factors makes the crime rates darn near nothing.

roy reali · May 27, 2008, 09:55 AM

Winnemucca is a small Northern Nevada town. Over the weekend a shooting occured in a bar there. Apparently a guy entered the establishment to shoot some folks as part of some family revenge. He killed three and wounded two. He was also killed.

He was killed by a patron with a CCW and a gun to go with it. He was released after it was determined it was justifiable homicide.

You see, some gun laws do work. The ones that allow you and me to protect ourselves.

applesanity · May 27, 2008, 02:52 PM

You wanna say " Japan Gun Control Laws Didn't Stop Shooting." Likewise, I can say, "Japan Gun Control Laws keep Japanese Gun-Related Crimes at a significant low relative to gun related crimes in the U.S." Both statements work on your flawed reasoning; both are baseless.

Quote:

It's a good thing Japan has some of the toughest gun control laws in the world to protect her citizens from shootings.

Well, it's a good thing Japan has some of the toughest gun control laws in the world -- otherwise, isolated incidents such as the assasination of Mayor Iccho Ito would be commonplace.

Quote:

The question so often being asked is whether LEGAL gun ownership CAUSES CRIME. To accurately answer that question you have to take out the anti gun places' murder figures from the total of the US and the crimes from ineligible people possessing firearms. Removing those two factors makes the crime rates darn near nothing.

If the traffic isn't bad (but then again, 495 + 95 is almost always bad) you can go from DC to Richmond, VA in about an hour. As for gun laws, Virginia is known for having some relatively decent gun rights. The homicide rate per capita in Richmond is higher than that of DC.

roy reali · May 27, 2008, 03:40 PM

Japanese prisons are just a wee-bit tougher then ours.

Yellowfin · May 27, 2008, 04:44 PM

Apple, but does that homicide figure exclude those committed by felons and other ineligible gun owners?

wayneinFL · May 27, 2008, 05:43 PM

"though it doesn't do much to explain the even disproportionately lower murder by firearms rate"

That's evidence that effective restrictions on firearms, squeeze the supply enough that determined individuals will find other means to kill people. It's always been an argument of mine that a large percentage of the gun related murders committed will still be committed despite gun control because, first, a percentage of killers will still get guns, second, a percentage of killers don't need guns to kill.

MedicineBow · May 27, 2008, 05:53 PM

Wayne:

But, then, that theory doesn't explain doesn't explain the vastly lower murder rates in other first world countries, like every country in Europe and in Japan. Could it be that it's a lot easier to kill with a gun, so less "determination" is needed?

roy reali · May 27, 2008, 06:37 PM

The last time I looked at a globe I did not see any countries bordering Japan. The Sea of Japan is a bit harder to cross then the Rio Grande River.

wayneinFL · May 27, 2008, 08:23 PM

"doesn't explain the vastly lower murder rates in other first world countries, like every country in Europe and in Japan"

Neither does gun control. Finland and Switzerland have high rates of firearm ownership, and disproportionately low murder rates compared to the US. Russia has a disproportionately high murder rate compared to the US, despite stringent gun control. So does Taiwan.

Statistical data doesn't point one way or the other. Gun control doesn't share a direct correlation to the murder rate throughout Europe or Asia.

If you wish to ignore this for argument's sake, let's assume there was an inversely proportional correlation between gun control and the murder rate. Correlation does not prove cause. Is the murder rate a direct result of gun control measures? Or are gun control and the murder rate both the results of a nation's collective attitude toward violence? Or is the low murder rate actually causing gun control, because with a low crime rate people feel safe without owning guns for self defense? Or any other number of factors?

I really think the deciding factor causing high murder rates is the attitude of the people. Other lesser factors might be such things as more effective policing (perhaps so effective Americans would not tolerate it).

Guns do factor in to some extent. I lean to the idea that most murders would still happen because under a ban, because:

1. Guns would be available, because existing guns are so plentiful.
2. Guns would be available, because they would be stolen from police.
3. Guns would be available, because they would be manufactured illegally.
4. Guns would be available, because they would be imported illegally.
4. You don't need a gun to kill somebody.

And actually I think the murder rate would increase as a result because contemplated murders that are today stopped or deterred would actually be consummated.

wayneinFL · May 27, 2008, 08:25 PM

"Could it be that it's a lot easier to kill with a gun, so less "determination" is needed?"

Sure. And think how much determination would be needed if criminals with or without guns were facing people they knew were unarmed.

Shorts · May 27, 2008, 08:29 PM

What other methods of mass destruction and killing are there? Bombs/explosives/fires, chemicals (airborne and ingested poison), mass transit system.....

If someone wants to kill someone else, and they're pretty darn mad, I would say they're determined enough to do what it takes to kill them, no matter what it takes. From driving a truck through their house or using a mass method of destruction.

Lawyer Daggit · May 27, 2008, 08:47 PM

Yellowfin I agree. 25 years ago I wrote an Hons thesis on this topic. To compare stats you need to go to the borough level, you cannot compare country to country.

When you do this you note that most of the US gun crime rate is a ghetto phenomenon and crime rates in 'good' neighbourhoods compare with those in Australia, New Zealand, Canada or the UK- or did 25 years ago when I looked into it (OK maybe US was a bit higher but not a lot).

Unfortunately you start mentioning this and the politically correct come out of the wood work and stifle debate as the bulk of the crime rate is occuring amongst the black community and if you mention this you are immediately a Nazi or racist.

This is I think why the community as a whole gets so worked up about shootings at Universities etc. This type of crime is 'not supposed' to happen in middle class white neighbourhoods.

Shorts · May 27, 2008, 08:50 PM

hmm, I can see that. You start talking demographics and someone accuses you of throwing the race card.

May 26, 2008, 09:48 AM	#1
k Squared Senior Member Join Date: June 10, 2007 Location: Albuquerque, NM Posts: 238	Japan Gun Control Laws Didn't Stop Shooting It's a good thing Japan has some of the toughest gun control laws in the world to protect her citizens from shootings.:barf: http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/as....ap/index.html __________________ K Squared

May 27, 2008, 01:33 AM	#13
Yellowfin Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2007 Location: Lancaster Co, PA Posts: 2,311	The UK does NOT have lower crime rates than here. They finagle the reporting of it to hide it just like how college campuses do so here to spare themselves of being embarassed and their failed policies and ineptitude brought to light. It is indeed true, though, that the Japanese culture is much more homogenous, disciplined, and family oriented compared to here across the spectrum. As Sean Connery said in Rising Sun "We may come from a fragmented MTV rock and roll culture, but they do not." Something I often mention but it further bears repeating here again: using the crime rates for the US as a total for comparison of firearm freedom to no firearm freedom isn't totally valid because there are places in the US where it's very bad yet none of the freedom. Thus they should be removed from the equation. The question so often being asked is whether LEGAL gun ownership CAUSES CRIME. To accurately answer that question you have to take out the anti gun places' murder figures from the total of the US and the crimes from ineligible people possessing firearms. Removing those two factors makes the crime rates darn near nothing. __________________ Students for Concealed Carry on Campus http://www.concealedcampus.org "You can't stop insane people from doing insane things by passing insane laws--that's insane!" - Penn Jillette

May 27, 2008, 09:55 AM	#14
roy reali Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2005 Posts: 3,248	It Did In Nevada Winnemucca is a small Northern Nevada town. Over the weekend a shooting occured in a bar there. Apparently a guy entered the establishment to shoot some folks as part of some family revenge. He killed three and wounded two. He was also killed. He was killed by a patron with a CCW and a gun to go with it. He was released after it was determined it was justifiable homicide. You see, some gun laws do work. The ones that allow you and me to protect ourselves.

May 27, 2008, 03:40 PM	#16
roy reali Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2005 Posts: 3,248	One Other Factor Japanese prisons are just a wee-bit tougher then ours.

May 27, 2008, 04:44 PM	#17
Yellowfin Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2007 Location: Lancaster Co, PA Posts: 2,311	Apple, but does that homicide figure exclude those committed by felons and other ineligible gun owners? __________________ Students for Concealed Carry on Campus http://www.concealedcampus.org "You can't stop insane people from doing insane things by passing insane laws--that's insane!" - Penn Jillette

May 26, 2008, 09:54 AM	#2
FireMax Senior Member Join Date: January 14, 2008 Location: MOLON LABE Posts: 1,063	Gun control only controls law abiding citizens. It does nothing to disarm crooks.

May 26, 2008, 01:08 PM	#3
Wildalaska Junior member Join Date: November 25, 2002 Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska Posts: 14,171	And the point is, other than a drive by? WildumwhatisthepointAlaska TM

May 26, 2008, 06:30 PM	#4
Shorts Senior Member Join Date: November 21, 2004 Posts: 1,484	Yakuza is the exception to all the rules in Japan Not really much to reply to the OP. This isn't the first time that's happened here. Won't be the last. The mayor could have easily been stabbed on the subway.

May 26, 2008, 07:27 PM	#5
MedicineBow Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 297	Well, first: I'm all for the right to own guns in the USA, and I do (and have early and often). That is my right, and I intend to always work to keep that right. That said, one has to admit the murder rate in, say, Japan is much lower than here (less than 1/8 the murder rate in the USA). And Japan doesn't even rank on murders using firearms. To give you an idea of how low that rate is in other countries that do make the ranking, for instance, the murder by firearms rate in the UK is about 1/27th (!) of the rate in the US (while the UK murder rate is about 1/3 of the USA's). Sad but true.

May 26, 2008, 07:38 PM	#6
LostOne Senior Member Join Date: May 9, 2008 Posts: 157	People die, its not a good enough reason to take away something from me thats constitutionally given.

May 26, 2008, 09:57 PM	#8
MedicineBow Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 297	Wildalaska: Yes, one hopes it turns out that the citizens of the rest of the first world are just less murderous than we are!

May 26, 2008, 10:11 PM	#10
wayneinFL Senior Member Join Date: December 18, 2004 Posts: 1,944	Russia has some pretty strict gun control laws, but has a murder rate five times ours. It's obvious there's a difference in culture that affects the number of murders in any country.

May 26, 2008, 11:56 PM	#12
MedicineBow Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 297	Perhaps the UK and Japan are just populated by more peaceful people, which explains the lower murder rates (though it doesn't do much to explain the even disproportionately lower murder by firearms rate). Who knows.

May 27, 2008, 05:43 PM	#18
wayneinFL Senior Member Join Date: December 18, 2004 Posts: 1,944	"though it doesn't do much to explain the even disproportionately lower murder by firearms rate" That's evidence that effective restrictions on firearms, squeeze the supply enough that determined individuals will find other means to kill people. It's always been an argument of mine that a large percentage of the gun related murders committed will still be committed despite gun control because, first, a percentage of killers will still get guns, second, a percentage of killers don't need guns to kill.

May 27, 2008, 05:53 PM	#19
MedicineBow Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 297	Wayne: But, then, that theory doesn't explain doesn't explain the vastly lower murder rates in other first world countries, like every country in Europe and in Japan. Could it be that it's a lot easier to kill with a gun, so less "determination" is needed?

May 27, 2008, 06:37 PM	#20
roy reali Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2005 Posts: 3,248	Border Issues The last time I looked at a globe I did not see any countries bordering Japan. The Sea of Japan is a bit harder to cross then the Rio Grande River.

May 27, 2008, 08:23 PM	#21
wayneinFL Senior Member Join Date: December 18, 2004 Posts: 1,944	"doesn't explain the vastly lower murder rates in other first world countries, like every country in Europe and in Japan" Neither does gun control. Finland and Switzerland have high rates of firearm ownership, and disproportionately low murder rates compared to the US. Russia has a disproportionately high murder rate compared to the US, despite stringent gun control. So does Taiwan. Statistical data doesn't point one way or the other. Gun control doesn't share a direct correlation to the murder rate throughout Europe or Asia. If you wish to ignore this for argument's sake, let's assume there was an inversely proportional correlation between gun control and the murder rate. Correlation does not prove cause. Is the murder rate a direct result of gun control measures? Or are gun control and the murder rate both the results of a nation's collective attitude toward violence? Or is the low murder rate actually causing gun control, because with a low crime rate people feel safe without owning guns for self defense? Or any other number of factors? I really think the deciding factor causing high murder rates is the attitude of the people. Other lesser factors might be such things as more effective policing (perhaps so effective Americans would not tolerate it). Guns do factor in to some extent. I lean to the idea that most murders would still happen because under a ban, because: 1. Guns would be available, because existing guns are so plentiful. 2. Guns would be available, because they would be stolen from police. 3. Guns would be available, because they would be manufactured illegally. 4. Guns would be available, because they would be imported illegally. 4. You don't need a gun to kill somebody. And actually I think the murder rate would increase as a result because contemplated murders that are today stopped or deterred would actually be consummated.

May 27, 2008, 08:25 PM	#22
wayneinFL Senior Member Join Date: December 18, 2004 Posts: 1,944	"Could it be that it's a lot easier to kill with a gun, so less "determination" is needed?" Sure. And think how much determination would be needed if criminals with or without guns were facing people they knew were unarmed.

May 27, 2008, 08:29 PM	#23
Shorts Senior Member Join Date: November 21, 2004 Posts: 1,484	What other methods of mass destruction and killing are there? Bombs/explosives/fires, chemicals (airborne and ingested poison), mass transit system..... If someone wants to kill someone else, and they're pretty darn mad, I would say they're determined enough to do what it takes to kill them, no matter what it takes. From driving a truck through their house or using a mass method of destruction.

May 27, 2008, 08:47 PM	#24
Lawyer Daggit Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2004 Posts: 1,181	Crime rates Yellowfin I agree. 25 years ago I wrote an Hons thesis on this topic. To compare stats you need to go to the borough level, you cannot compare country to country. When you do this you note that most of the US gun crime rate is a ghetto phenomenon and crime rates in 'good' neighbourhoods compare with those in Australia, New Zealand, Canada or the UK- or did 25 years ago when I looked into it (OK maybe US was a bit higher but not a lot). Unfortunately you start mentioning this and the politically correct come out of the wood work and stifle debate as the bulk of the crime rate is occuring amongst the black community and if you mention this you are immediately a Nazi or racist. This is I think why the community as a whole gets so worked up about shootings at Universities etc. This type of crime is 'not supposed' to happen in middle class white neighbourhoods.

May 27, 2008, 08:50 PM	#25
Shorts Senior Member Join Date: November 21, 2004 Posts: 1,484	hmm, I can see that. You start talking demographics and someone accuses you of throwing the race card.