Brass turning blue!!!!

plom · June 17, 2008, 04:47 PM

Today I washed some 38 SP brass cases, after cleaning them they went in the oven for drying, when I took it out of the owen they're light blue! is it normal? can I still use them?

TimRB · June 17, 2008, 05:08 PM

What temp and for how long? Sounds like you ended up annealing them. Annealing the whole case (instead of just the neck) would be the kiss of death for rifle brass, but I dunno about pistols.

Edit: Actually, I doubt that they are annealed. No household oven could possibly get hot enough to do that. I think.

Tim

N.M. Edmands · June 17, 2008, 05:50 PM

Washing with ammonia? Not sure where the blue coloring would come from, but ammonia will attack copper in barrels turning a greenish color and probably also brass. If your soap had ammonia in it,I would scrap them to be safe.

SL1 · June 17, 2008, 06:44 PM

If you leave brass in an oven set above about 500 degrees, it CAN make the brass too soft. Annealing is a function of temperature AND TIME. Any chance you had teh BROILER on? If so, I would NOT use the brass.

SL1

mikenbarb · June 17, 2008, 10:30 PM

Are they the color blue or do they have a heat blued appearance to them? If their the color blue, I have no idea. If they have a heat blued look, then their annealed and proably junk.

plom · June 18, 2008, 12:28 PM

I washed them with diswasher soap. They're not rallyblue, just light blue and yellow.

plom · June 18, 2008, 12:37 PM

here is a picture

wncchester · June 18, 2008, 06:43 PM

No photo can prove it but that sure looks like it's gotten too hot. I would toss 'em rather than take that chance!

Rustynuts · June 18, 2008, 06:51 PM

Dishwasher soap can be caustic and harsh. I would use mild DISH WASHING, not dishwasher soap. I then hit it with a quick vinegar hit in the rinse water to brighten them back up and follow with a good plain water rinse.

I would dry them in a low oven (<200) unless you are actually trying to anneal. Even then you are supposed to use the water bath method I believe to protect the base area.

If you used a low oven, it's probably normal tarnishing. I would re-rinse them in the vinegar mix and re-dry, and/or tumble well.

Sidetracked · June 18, 2008, 07:43 PM

It looks like a chemical etch to me.

If it were me, I would shoot 'em.

Scorch · June 18, 2008, 07:52 PM

Looks like they tarnished. Dishwasher detergent is a mild caustic, and removed any grease, wax or oil that was on the cases to begin with. I believe they are OK, but if in doubt, don't load them hot.

Crosshair · June 18, 2008, 08:14 PM

Yea, that looks like they are tarnished. I have some that did that, don't know either why, but they shoot fine.

SL1 · June 18, 2008, 09:09 PM

You know, they could be tarnished AND annealed. The important question still remains, HOW HOT WAS THE OVEN? And WAS THE OVEN ON BROIL?

I'm wondering why that question has not been answered since TimRB and I both asked it over 24 hours ago. Plom, don't you know?

SL1

plom · June 19, 2008, 04:09 AM

actually the oven was at 100 degres celcius, they went there for 40 minutes.

SL1 · June 19, 2008, 07:40 AM

Quote:

actually the oven was at 100 degres celcius, they went there for 40 minutes.

As long as the CASES did not get a lot over 100°C, there shoud be no possibility of them having been annealed. So, they should be OK to shoot UNLESS they were right next to the heating element, so they got MUCH hotter than the air that the oven senses to control its temperature, OR, if the oven was accidentally on BROIL and the cases were being heated from above instead of below.

SL1

JDG · June 19, 2008, 07:41 AM

Range brass setting in the sun looks like that after a few days, I'd shoot em.

plom · June 19, 2008, 08:10 AM

thanks for the help guys, those 38 cases are only used for soot very mild loads so I'll give them a try

Crazy4nitro · June 19, 2008, 10:46 AM

I agree with JDG

'Nitro

TimRB · June 19, 2008, 02:28 PM

"actually the oven was at 100 degres celcius, they went there for 40 minutes"

http://www.suppliersonline.com/resea...etals/1267.asp

"Annealing

The annealing temperature for this alloy is between 800 and 1400 F."

Another site talks about "low temperature" annealing at 200-250 degrees C for several hours. I am not a metalurgist, but I don't think these cases could have been annealed at 100 degrees for 40 minutes.

Tim

plom · June 19, 2008, 02:56 PM

thanks again for the help, I'll let you know this eek end if I blow my S&W 686

mikenbarb · June 20, 2008, 11:12 PM

I deal with alot of metals(including brass) and I would compare brittleness or hardness to a new shell by squeezing the rim of the brass with your fingers till it bends in together and compare results of both cases on the stressed edges. If their annealed the harder one might split, crack or have some kind of fatigue marks compared to the new brass. also, it would take a little more pressure to crush it and you should be able to tell by squeezing it with your fingers . Certain cases in the picture absolutely look annealed but others dont. Did you have them in a pile or all laying flat? If piled, The brass on the outside of pile would be annealed and acting as a heatsink and the inner cases would be ok or patchy spots of annealing where the heat got to them. Im just guessing and dont have one in my hand to look at to be positive. Try a brass cleaner on one and see what happens. Or try to dupplicate the washing process and air dry them to see if they blue from a chemical reaction with the cleaner you used.

plom · June 21, 2008, 04:41 AM

great info, thanks a lot! they were lying flat.

mikenbarb · June 21, 2008, 08:56 AM

When in doubt, Throw em out.

Mach II Sailor · June 21, 2008, 09:19 AM

looks tarnished to me..., BUT if anyone wants to anneal brass in the oven, punch out the primers, stand the cases upright in a pan of water with only about 1/4th inch of the neck above water, put them in the oven, middle rack, and turn the oven on to "SELF CLEAN" cycle.

Jim Watson · June 21, 2008, 09:55 AM

I wet tumble my black powder brass in ceramic media, rinse, and dry in the oven at 200-225F. The cases are bright as new with no tarnish or heat colors.

I doubt the accuracy of your oven thermostat. I would apply the crush test and see how easy the worst discolored ones are to flatten vs unheated.

June 17, 2008, 04:47 PM	#1
plom Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Posts: 582	Brass turning blue!!!! Today I washed some 38 SP brass cases, after cleaning them they went in the oven for drying, when I took it out of the owen they're light blue! is it normal? can I still use them?

June 17, 2008, 06:44 PM	#4
SL1 Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2007 Posts: 2,001	What temp was the oven set to? If you leave brass in an oven set above about 500 degrees, it CAN make the brass too soft. Annealing is a function of temperature AND TIME. Any chance you had teh BROILER on? If so, I would NOT use the brass. SL1

June 18, 2008, 07:52 PM	#11
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,249	Looks like they tarnished. Dishwasher detergent is a mild caustic, and removed any grease, wax or oil that was on the cases to begin with. I believe they are OK, but if in doubt, don't load them hot. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

June 18, 2008, 08:14 PM	#12
Crosshair Senior Member Join Date: December 16, 2004 Location: Grand Forks, ND Posts: 5,333	Yea, that looks like they are tarnished. I have some that did that, don't know either why, but they shoot fine. __________________ I don't carry a gun to go looking for trouble, I carry a gun in case trouble finds me.

June 17, 2008, 05:08 PM	#2
TimRB Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 2004 Posts: 1,051	What temp and for how long? Sounds like you ended up annealing them. Annealing the whole case (instead of just the neck) would be the kiss of death for rifle brass, but I dunno about pistols. Edit: Actually, I doubt that they are annealed. No household oven could possibly get hot enough to do that. I think. Tim

June 17, 2008, 05:50 PM	#3
N.M. Edmands Member Join Date: December 2, 2001 Location: Yarnell,Arizona Posts: 48	Washing with ammonia? Not sure where the blue coloring would come from, but ammonia will attack copper in barrels turning a greenish color and probably also brass. If your soap had ammonia in it,I would scrap them to be safe.

June 17, 2008, 10:30 PM	#5
mikenbarb Senior Member Join Date: October 10, 2007 Location: N.J. Posts: 1,111	Are they the color blue or do they have a heat blued appearance to them? If their the color blue, I have no idea. If they have a heat blued look, then their annealed and proably junk.

June 18, 2008, 12:28 PM	#6
plom Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Posts: 582	I washed them with diswasher soap. They're not rallyblue, just light blue and yellow.

June 18, 2008, 12:37 PM	#7
plom Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Posts: 582	here is a picture

June 18, 2008, 06:43 PM	#8
wncchester Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2002 Posts: 2,832	No photo can prove it but that sure looks like it's gotten too hot. I would toss 'em rather than take that chance!

June 18, 2008, 06:51 PM	#9
Rustynuts Member Join Date: May 27, 2007 Posts: 94	Dishwasher soap can be caustic and harsh. I would use mild DISH WASHING, not dishwasher soap. I then hit it with a quick vinegar hit in the rinse water to brighten them back up and follow with a good plain water rinse. I would dry them in a low oven (<200) unless you are actually trying to anneal. Even then you are supposed to use the water bath method I believe to protect the base area. If you used a low oven, it's probably normal tarnishing. I would re-rinse them in the vinegar mix and re-dry, and/or tumble well.

June 18, 2008, 07:43 PM	#10
Sidetracked Senior Member Join Date: May 13, 2008 Location: Henrietta, FL Posts: 306	It looks like a chemical etch to me. If it were me, I would shoot 'em.

June 18, 2008, 09:09 PM	#13
SL1 Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2007 Posts: 2,001	You know, they could be tarnished AND annealed. The important question still remains, HOW HOT WAS THE OVEN? And WAS THE OVEN ON BROIL? I'm wondering why that question has not been answered since TimRB and I both asked it over 24 hours ago. Plom, don't you know? SL1

June 19, 2008, 04:09 AM	#14
plom Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Posts: 582	actually the oven was at 100 degres celcius, they went there for 40 minutes.

June 19, 2008, 07:41 AM	#16
JDG Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 2005 Location: West Michigan Posts: 673	Range brass setting in the sun looks like that after a few days, I'd shoot em.

June 19, 2008, 08:10 AM	#17
plom Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Posts: 582	thanks for the help guys, those 38 cases are only used for soot very mild loads so I'll give them a try

June 19, 2008, 10:46 AM	#18
Crazy4nitro Senior Member Join Date: January 15, 2007 Location: Lou-a-vul KY Posts: 142	I agree with JDG 'Nitro

June 19, 2008, 02:28 PM	#19
TimRB Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 2004 Posts: 1,051	"actually the oven was at 100 degres celcius, they went there for 40 minutes" http://www.suppliersonline.com/resea...etals/1267.asp "Annealing The annealing temperature for this alloy is between 800 and 1400 F." Another site talks about "low temperature" annealing at 200-250 degrees C for several hours. I am not a metalurgist, but I don't think these cases could have been annealed at 100 degrees for 40 minutes. Tim

June 19, 2008, 02:56 PM	#20
plom Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Posts: 582	thanks again for the help, I'll let you know this eek end if I blow my S&W 686

June 20, 2008, 11:12 PM	#21
mikenbarb Senior Member Join Date: October 10, 2007 Location: N.J. Posts: 1,111	I deal with alot of metals(including brass) and I would compare brittleness or hardness to a new shell by squeezing the rim of the brass with your fingers till it bends in together and compare results of both cases on the stressed edges. If their annealed the harder one might split, crack or have some kind of fatigue marks compared to the new brass. also, it would take a little more pressure to crush it and you should be able to tell by squeezing it with your fingers . Certain cases in the picture absolutely look annealed but others dont. Did you have them in a pile or all laying flat? If piled, The brass on the outside of pile would be annealed and acting as a heatsink and the inner cases would be ok or patchy spots of annealing where the heat got to them. Im just guessing and dont have one in my hand to look at to be positive. Try a brass cleaner on one and see what happens. Or try to dupplicate the washing process and air dry them to see if they blue from a chemical reaction with the cleaner you used.

June 21, 2008, 04:41 AM	#22
plom Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Posts: 582	great info, thanks a lot! they were lying flat.

June 21, 2008, 08:56 AM	#23
mikenbarb Senior Member Join Date: October 10, 2007 Location: N.J. Posts: 1,111	When in doubt, Throw em out.

June 21, 2008, 09:19 AM	#24
Mach II Sailor Junior member Join Date: March 22, 2007 Posts: 480	looks tarnished to me..., BUT if anyone wants to anneal brass in the oven, punch out the primers, stand the cases upright in a pan of water with only about 1/4th inch of the neck above water, put them in the oven, middle rack, and turn the oven on to "SELF CLEAN" cycle.

June 21, 2008, 09:55 AM	#25
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 19,172	I wet tumble my black powder brass in ceramic media, rinse, and dry in the oven at 200-225F. The cases are bright as new with no tarnish or heat colors. I doubt the accuracy of your oven thermostat. I would apply the crush test and see how easy the worst discolored ones are to flatten vs unheated.